Bill Fitzmaurice

They also will have completely different tonal characteristics. It would be nice if they posted response charts, but at least they're one of the perhaps 5% of manufacturers who provide displacement. I guess response charts will have to wait until the next century.

Internal dimensions are a must.

Assuming that the 237cc displacement of the first and 496cc displacement of the second does in fact refer to woofer Vd (odd they can't find anyone to translate their spec explanation into English) the second would equal two of the first in maximum output capability. I'd bet pence to pounds that the first is loaded with an Eminence Beta 12, the second with an Eminence 3012LF.

Most manufacturers are quite loathe to reveal any information about the drivers they use. The usual reason given is that they don't want people reverse engineering their cabs. That's silly, as any decent amateur engineer can borrow a cab, measure the driver specs and get the cab dimensions in a matter of a couple of hours. The real reason is that they don't want users to know how inexpensive the drivers are that they use, and don't want people buying replacement drivers from alternate sources for much less than what they sell them for. Your best bet is to post the cab dimensions and you can be given a few drivers that are compatible, but they probably won't sound the same as the stock drivers.

The driver T/S specs need to be matched to the cab, via speaker modeling software. The driver thermal rating is one of the least important specs, as it has no relationship with either frequency response, sensitivity or maximum output. Perhaps most important when contemplating a swap is that if you don't model the existing drivers for low frequency results and have a data sheet SPL chart for the midrange and high frequency results you have no way of knowing if a different driver would be an improvement, or if it is even as good as what you have.

Cab B will be louder, by about 7.5dB. In fact, Cab B will be more than the equal of a pair of cab A. This assumes that you're actually driving both cabs to their full excursion. If their sensitivities and frequency response are similar and both are driven with the same voltage swing they'll be equally loud. What gives Cab B the ability to go louder is that it can take over twice the voltage swing, which is more than four times the power, as Cab A. True, because speaker diameter is not a measurement of displacement. But displacement would not be stated as 200cm anyway. Cone area (Sd) is stated as square cm, displacement (Vd) is stated as cubic cm. As the OP specifically asked about displacement I assume that's what he means. The main issue with trying to compare displacement of different cabs is that almost every cab manufacturer won't reveal it. One can rightfully assume that those very few who do publish displacement specs don't feel the need to hide it.

I was prepared to let this thread go, but ...I never said rubbish, or that they won't work. I did point out the shortcomings of systems of this type from a purely technical standpoint. If the subs can be easily remotely placed It would be most helpful if the marketing material made note of that, and the owner's manual as well. It would be even better if the manual pointed out the advantages of sub wall placement and clustering. But every picture in the advertising, the manual, and your own demonstration shows the mains atop the subs, the subs split and away from the wall. As for the percentage of PA operators here who were previously aware that subs should be wall loaded and clustered whenever possible, and what the Power Alley is, do a poll. I venture it would be a very small percentage, because by no means are these technical aspects intuitively obvious. Knowing how to correctly do PA must be learned. It is most difficult to learn something that is not being taught. It certainly isn't being taught by the PA industry in general, and as the marketing and manuals are presently written, not by Markaudio. IMHO that makes Markaudio part of the problem. You now have the opportunity to make it part of the solution. Or continue to shoot at the messenger while ignoring the validity of the message.

If the forum management thinks that what I do for a living renders me incapable of offering unbiased technical advice all they have to do is say so and I will have made my last post here.

I do not manufacture or sell speakers, or represent in any way any entity that does. I'm an acoustical engineer, so any comments I may make come purely from an engineering standpoint. I don't have a dog in this fight, but that doesn't mean I can't point out if one or more of them have a decided limp.

The angling of the drivers doesn't make it 'not... a true array'. It's actually an old concept, intended to broaden high frequency dispersion that otherwise beams due to using HF drivers that are too large. It's not as effective as using a two-way line, with midbass drivers large enough to comfortably reach 100Hz or lower, and tweeters to prevent high frequency beaming. Bose used that configuration as a cost cutting measure, allowing use of the same drivers they employ in many of their home audio speakers. Bose double cubes allow aiming of the drivers in two directions for the same reason, to broaden HF dispersion beyond the limitations of the driver. The Bose array is for all intents and purposes a stack of those double cubes.

The comment about proper sub placement doesn't refer to compact arrays in particular, it refers to PA systems in general. Ask any PA operator who splits their subs and puts them under the mains why they do it that way. They'll be hard pressed to come up with an answer, other than 'that's the way everyone does it', 'that's the way I've always done it", or 'that's the only way I know how to do it'. Doing a PA setup the right way is no more difficult than doing it the wrong way, if you know what the right way is. The PA industry in general has not made any attempt at providing the average user that information. It could do far worse than to emulate the efforts in consumer education that Barefaced has in the electric bass cab genre.

It can't. Low frequency sources work best when they're close to a wall. When they're placed away from a wall the reflected and direct waves will meet at 180 degrees out of phase, resulting in a cancellation notch, the frequency of the notch being determined by the distance to the wall and the listener position. If the system can be placed less than 3 feet from the wall it's not a concern, but you can't do that if it puts the high frequency array behind the mics. Also, if you have left and right high frequency sources that forces the low frequency sources to be split. In the majority of rooms they should not be split, they should be clustered together, other wise you end up with a power alley situation. http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/ Even if you jury rigged cables that allowed you to put the tops and the bottoms where they each work best the works get gummed up when the crossover is higher than 100-120Hz or so, as that makes the low frequency sources directionally locatable. That's aggravated when the low frequency sources are direct radiating, as the high THD of direct radiators substantially increases harmonic content well above the crossover frequency. To answer the next logical question, 'Why does it seem that everyone stacks their mains above their subs and splits the subs left and right', the simple answer is that they don't know any better. Now you do. And as the next question will likely be 'Why do they put pole mounts in subs that encourage putting the mains above them?", no manufacturer wants to lose a sale for the lack of a feature, especially an inexpensive feature, that buyers want, whether it's a beneficial feature or not.

They're a variation on the Bose L1. That's not a good thing, as just like the L1 they place the high frequency line atop the low frequency cab. They also cross over from the low frequency to high frequency elements at 180Hz. Those two features make it impossible to place the LF and HF elements where they both work as well as possible, which is almost never in the same footprint.

Speakons don't cause noise. Single coil pickups do.

Cabs only reproduce the signal sent to them, they don't create their own. If you're using the same bass and didn't have a problem with your previous amp it's the amp.

Very few manufacturers reveal whose drivers they use, and none reveal the complete specs on OEM drivers, if they reveal any specs at all. It's very much a smoke and mirrors situation.

Since the originals are no longer available and there are no specs for them all you can do is use modeling software and data sheets to find what works as well as possible in the cab configuration.

An Ampeg B15 is 30 watts. There's no simple answer here.

Always ignore above even 200Hz, as no box program is accurate above that, unless you're modeling a midrange driver with Fs of at least 150Hz. I have my chart stop at 250Hz.

They should list drivers appropriate for use with them, along with modeled response charts and displacement limited power ratings with said drivers. Since they have the box design specs (one would hope, anyway) doing so with any driver would take all of five minutes.

You'd get more adding a second identical 2x10. There's only one way to know what the actual sensitivity of a cab is, that's by looking at an SPL chart. AFAIK no manufacturers provide them. There are many excuses why, but there's an old saying about excuses and rectums, and the only thing that they're both good for.

Wired parallel two 98dB/w 8 ohm speakers will have 104dB/2.83v voltage sensitivity, but the halved impedance makes 2.83v 2 watts. Their 1 watt sensitivity is 101dB. One way manufacturers fudge the numbers is to quote a 4 ohm speaker at 2.83v sensitivity while making no mention that's 2 watts. If you could wire four speakers parallel the 1 watt sensitivity would go up to 104dB, but unless your amp is 2 ohm capable you have to wire the two pairs series/parallel. In that case the cab will be 8 ohms, and the 2.83v and 1w sensitivity is 101dB. Taking the math backwards, if the Eden and DNS 410s had 106dB/w sensitivity then the sensitivity of each driver would be 103dB. No ten inch driver that is useful below 100Hz has 103dB sensitivity.

If you like what you're getting from your present cab a second will help. You would run at 4 ohms. Adding the second cab will increase sensitivity and put some drivers up higher where you can better hear them. For best results the second cab should be identical.

I'm sure they will, but ill advisedly. The OP wants a cab that's both small and efficient. That's possible, but only if you toss the third component of Hoffman's Iron Law, which is low frequency extension. Barefaced has a decided advantage over most cabs in that the long xmax drivers they use allow them to go low and loud, but that loudness is realized by their being able to take a lot of power, not via higher sensitivity. With only 100 watts if the OP wants to go both low and loud then the cab must be large. Of the 210/112/115 options the highest sensitivity will come from a 210. The brand doesn't matter so much as the size, the smaller the box the less low end it will have. The thermal rating of a cab has no relationship with how much power it can actually make use of, or how much power it requires to give a desired result. As to cabs rated at higher than 97dB/watt, beware of specsmanship. For instance, any claim for a single driver cab at more than 98dB/watt is probably false. Claims for more than 101dB from multiple drivers are probably false. Eden, and now DNS, has long claimed 106dB/watt from a 410. How do they get such a high rating? By lying. Caveat emptor.

What the OP wants is the Holy Grail of Bassplayers, a small speaker that goes low and loud. The only obstacle to reaching that goal is Hoffman's Iron Law. If you're a bassplayer and don't know what that is look it up, because you should. There are some ways to get around it to some extent, like extra long xmax drivers, but you can only go so small with a cabinet no matter what the driver. Bottom line, if you want a small easily portable rig that still covers a large room without PA support...take up guitar.