agedhorse

When an amp is not designed to be repaired at the component level, you generally get the benefit of a more inexpensive purchase price but then suffer the consequences of needing to replace assemblies rather than component level repair. This is not a big deal where the designs have a history of long, reliable life, but can be very costly (for both the manufacturer and end user) if the failure rate is high and the failures affect amps less than say 10-15 years. At this point, doing the "true cost of ownership" calculations shows that the cheaper amp built this way may in fact be more expensive than the more expensive amp that has a longer, more trouble-free life. As a society, we have become more accepting of "disposable" consumer goods, and there are companies within our industry that specialize in this model. Ultimately, when these products are manufactured "off shore", not only is there the loss due to the cost of a product that is considered disposable, but there is also the loss of income to those within your region who would have built the product "in region" or "in country" that affect the local health of the economy. This is something that we began studying in engineering economics back when I was in university (a very long time ago, I assure you), I assume that it has taken on added importance in recent years.

If the amp's specs have been revised to operate at a minimum 4 ohm load and you had problems that may have been contributed to be being operated into a 2.67 ohm load, you might have another path to get this resolved in your favor. You should not be responsible for somebody else's mistakes, heck it's tough enough being responsible for our own, right?

There are a couple of things going on here that the marketing departments jumped on like rabid dogs... First, there is the obvious limitation of the high frequency driver which is no more than about 35-40 watts RMS above 800hz. There is dynamic mechanical power handling above this, but in practice, due to the sensitivity difference between the HF and LF sections, this doesn't even come into play. Typically the HF section is at least 10dB more sensitive than the LF section on a cabinet like this. So, even if the amp is nominally capable of delivering "1000 watts" (or whatever number), the internal processing limits this back to no more than 100 watts for "survive-ability" reasons. Second, looking at the LF section, the driver is not going to be capable of more than 400 watts RMS at low frequencies, therefore in the processing, the limiting and HPF algorithms are often dynamic and increase the amount of limiting as level gets higher and frequency gets lower. This too improves "survive-ability". Since this is a biamped speaker, the easiest and most common solution is to use the same power amp design for both channels, and use the driver's impedance plus processing to manage the real world power levels delivered to the speaker. For example, the amp might be rated at 1000 watts RMS at 4 ohms, but if the drivers are 8 ohms (or even 16 ohms in the case of the HF driver), the unprocessed power available would be 500 watts RMS to the LF and 250 - 500 watts to the HF. There's nothing wrong (and a LOT right) with managing power this way but IMO the real issue is with the way the numbers are manipulated by the marketing folks in a way that appears deceptive even if that's not the intent. Incidentally, this is a major conflict at many companies, between the design/engineering departments and marketing departments.

It's not quite so easy, though there are rules of thumb that engineers can use to determine the validity of specifications (called cross-checking or cross-verification). The AC input power is required for any amp to be the current draw at 1/8-rated RMS audio power at the lowest rated nominal impedance for any amplifiers compliant with IEC 60065 or 62368 safety standards. The standards also include a provision that if an amplifier is intended to and marketed to drive more than 1/8-duty cycle, the stated AC input draw MAY be increased to account for the increased (more severe) duty cycle. That said, the rated AC input power is verified by the test lab and really can't be fudged. RMS rated power can be calculated from the input power using the following method. Using an assumed efficiency of 80% for a class D/SMPS, the 110W is multiplied by the efficiency then the result is divided by the duty cycle for rated RMS audio power. Using the 110W input example: (110W x .80eff)/.125dutycycle = 704 watts RMS (presumably 4 ohms) With the Orange Terror, to me it looks like they are using a more severe duty cycle because roughly (500 watts input x .8 eff)/.125 = 3200 watts. In fact, what it looks like is that the rated input is actually the maximum rated input rather than the average rated input. This would conform to a duty cycle of 1 On the Subway amps, I typically use a duty cycle of between 1/4 and 1/3, therefore the rated AC input is higher than what it would be if we used 1/8-duty cycle (IIRC, I use ~400 watts rated AC input for an 800 watt RMS rated amp). This is because the amps are advertised and marketed to be able to be overdriven, and these numbers would then be accurate.

Maybe they discovered an error and revised the docs and chassis? Happens sometimes in spite of best efforts. The 900 watt models are 2 ohm capable and use a switch to operate at 2 ohms.

Not according to the docs on the Darkglass website: https://www.darkglass.com/app/uploads/2022/05/AO500-Manual.pdf Maybe you are looking at the wrong model, or there is an error in your documentation? 3 ohms minimum, which is 4 ohms nominal with room for excursions into sub-nominal territory. I am very familiar with the module they use and the following is accurate.

According to the docs, it’s 4 ohms minimum load. I wonder if this is the root cause?

Is there a switch that needs to select 2 ohm operation?

As a reminder, this is similar enough symptoms of an intermittent SpeakOn plug. I have seen intermittent plugs for two main reasons: 1. Counterfeit or knock-off, non-Neutrik branded plugs (major issue, and a cause of a fair amount of warrant claims unrelated to the amp) 2. Improperly assembled SpeakOn plugs where the assembler trimmed the wire, which then cold flowed under the pressure of the binding screw and loosened. Both of these are well known issues that I deal with way too often in customer support.

Any amp designed to IEC-60965 or 62368 in the EU must operate (and is tested by a nationally recognized test lab) at 230V +/-10%. That would be 253V high line and 207V low line. If the amp needs certification to operate in regions with nominal 240V, this would include Australia and New Zealand), the national differences approvals would add a 264V high line test. Virtually everything of any quality these days is designed to operate at a high line of 264V because it makes no sense to design multiple versions (at least with SMPS) because it would add more cost to the certification process than could be justified. The homogenization limits tolerances really do work quite well in practice, and in fact utilities have adjusted their generating and distribution voltages a few percent to improve compliance as well. Australia has some additional challenges, primarily around voltage regulation on long transmission and distribution lines with varying loads in the Outback.

That’s unfortunate.

Most repairs include a warranty on the repair. Did you follow up with them on this?

I posted before hearing the news...

If not in the UK, Italy isn't THAT far from the UK (though admittedly farther appearing since BREXIT)

Contact MarkBass and see what service options they have for you.

The following post is from TalkBass, ahead of you post about looking at a cheap 1300W x 4 channel Chinese amp. Yes, the information was provided and discussed by other members in detail. Some manufacturers understand the value that premium platforms like ICEPower bring to their customers. They also tend to follow safety and EMC rules, and avoid no-name amp solutions because they know the pitfalls in performance and reliability. Some manufacturers also understand how to exploit unpublished attributes of the ICEPower platforms to go farther than the published specs might (inaccurately) indicate.

The harmonizing of the UK to 230V nominal European standards means that the high line limits are the same. For amps that truly comply with CE under the CB scheme, they are tested at the high line limits, it’s one of the required tests that the amp must pass. Most of the “no name” amps available on the various websites do not carry valid CB safety or EMC certifications, and those that have the CE mark applied are often not eligible to carry that mark.

IIRC, some of us tried to warn you (didn't we?) We have a saying here... when you choose to sleep with snakes, it's likely that you will get bitten. It goes hand in hand with "buy once, cry once".

Actually, the standard voltage in Europe is now nominal 230V, the UK began the harmonizing to nominal 230V about 25-30 years ago. Initially, part of this harmonization included a change (lowering) of the maximum voltage to +5% so 240V x 1.05 = 252V which is close enough to the EU's 230V x 1.1 = 253V for high line limits. Slowly the nominal 240V has drifted down, combined in part with a tightening of the low line tolerance (now +10%/-6%) which brings it within the standard EU limits.

Tastes in speakers and speaker voicing certainly have changed. What we) as designers) can do with Neo drivers is something we had been wishing for decades ago. This is a better example of player’s constantly asking for something that designers were unable to deliver until the new technology came about.

Not IME, provided you have access to a QUALIFIED technician who knows how to CORRECTLY diagnose problems. In quality amps, failures of the power amp and class D sections are really quite rare. Most failures are related to exactly the same issues faced by older school amps, though overall the newer amps are better designed and built, with better quality parts. When there is a power supply or power amp failure, generally it's less expensive to replace the power module in a class D amp than it is to repair a class AB/G/H amp of similar power rating. Many older amps are not economically repairable with such failures because the cost of repair exceeds the value of the amp... ie. you can buy a used amp for less than it would cost to repair the bad one. With cheaper amps (say <$300), unless the shop is very good and accurate with diagnosis, it may not be worth repairing regardless of the type of amp. This is the nature of a highly efficient manufacturing environment. This is not an are where I have extensive experience, this mentality is at odds with the companies I have worked for throughout my career.

Actually, how an amp sounds when it's driven hard is not so much the type of power supply and power amp, but the intent of the designer and the choices made in voicing and dynamics of the circuitry. Music has evolved, so have the designs at the same time. If the voicing and dynamics response of an older school amp or voicing choices appeal more to you, then that's what you should play, and quit disparaging those who don't share your personal preferences and tastes.

This is not true, and most (not all) amp manufacturers no longer make class AB amps anyway, so why would they say this? IME, those who do not offer class D amps are the ones who have struggled with, or stumbled badly with class D technology. Those who haven't stumbled have not looked back and continue to move forward. This is not true of Mesa, certainly since 2014 when they "discovered" how much better and more reliable class D is. In most cases, they don't. Many switchmode power supplies are MUCH beefier than their heavy line frequency supplies, especially at 230V/50Hz. A quick test of SMPS output impedance shows how obvious this is too. Why can't those folks who live and die by the heavy gear as a preference refuse to acknowledge that other players might have different preferences and tastes that are just as valid? I've designed gear in both camps, each amp model does exactly what I intended with regards to performance and voicing with ZERO regard for the amp's size, weight or technology used.

Made in Italy or Indonesia?

Things are improving somewhat, but we are still backlogged by months. I’m still frustrated, that’s not improving