agedhorse

To clarify, I never said anything about being idiotic. There are certainly common tonal themes across most of the bass amp models, going back 50 years. That's bound to be the case of course, given that the designers of those models were consistent over most of those years. The exceptions are (imo and ime) the Carbines, Big Block and Titan (which were very much a more modern take on bass amps, paralleling the rectifier series popularity), the Strategy/Prodigy (which focused on a tighter approach to bass amp overdrive while maintaining the aggressive voicings of the Carbines), and to a lesser extent the Walkabout (which was distinctly different in many ways). I was brought on board to bring more focus into the bass amp/speaker products without the distraction and workload of designing guitar products at the same time. My goal is to take the best, most popular elements of a particular amp family and combine these with new features, new approaches, refinements and to update the products so that they meet the needs and expectations of today's players. For players this doesn't work for, that's fine. There is no shortage of good used amps of all types (and at bargain prices too... a bonus to players that these amps appeal to).

There is a fair amount of truth to what is posted on his website. A couple of errors though: 1. The term music power, peak music power, peak to peak power were all used starting in the 1960's not the 1980's. This is the reason for the FTC (U.S. Federal Trade Commission) rules requiring standardized power rating testing for HOME audio (hi-fi) products. This does not apply to pro audio or audio products used in the musical instrument markets (which are a tiny fraction of the size of the domestic audio market) 2. The term "route" mean squared is actually ROOT mean squared, and is a mathematical approach to a specific type of average power that is independent of waveform shape.

The amps are exactly the same size. I don't know for sure, but it's possible that they used the basic chassis size with one and the size with knobs, switches, handles and feet on the other, but thanks for pointing this out as they should be identical.

Note that the control tapers are designed so that there is a smooth increase in volume throughout the entire rotation. many amps use a taper that makes most of the range of control happen in the first 50% of the control's rotation. To that casual observer, this makes an amp appear louder when comparing using knob position only. The downside to this is that the range of real world adjustment is not as wide or smooth acting.

Also, to clarify, a good part of the height of the chassis is due to the use of tubes in the design. How many tubes does the DG amp use, and might this affect the packaging options?

Al - I think you have some kind of misunderstanding regarding these products and comparison between the two. First of all, on the TT-800 each channel has its own eq because the eq circuits are VERY different nad in the case of the Boogie channel, is fundamental to the voicing and texture of that channel. A single eq, no matter how many bands, is a non-starter for us in a 2 channel, channel switching amp. On the WD-800, which is a single channel amp, there is a 2 band Baxandall bass-treble eq, a passive mid that is also part of the amp's inherent voicing, and also 3 bands of semi-parametric mid that is foot switchable. This is our take on eq that's appropriate to these products. Regarding rear panel features, I don't see things that both the TT-800 and WD-800 include, things like level, ground lift on the DI(s), nor a tuner out, full size aux input jack, USB(A) power port. The parts that we use are a little bit larger in order to capitalize on mechanical robustness. Making this layout smaller is a non-starter regarding player-friendliness. I don't follow your comparison on size. The WD-800 and TT--800 are the same size, a little larger than the Darkglass amp you mentioned. IF you wish to compare based on size, then either the D-800 or D-800+ would be about the same (or smaller). Your assumption about the differences between the TT and WD make it clear that you haven't played either. They are entirely different amps, different tone profiles, different texture profiles, different feature sets and are designed to appeal to different players. The number of tubes is relatively independent to this, the signal path for the Boogie channel uses 1 tube and the signal path for the Subway channel uses 1/2 of a tube, one tube is common to both channels. It's HOW the tubes are used that matter, no different than every other aspect of a design. May I suggest that you try the amps before making performance comparisons?

They are a little bigger because of the feature set... there was no practical way to make them smaller given the controls and especially the rear panel features.

To follow up to the many messages I have received from you guys (both here and on TB), I thought it might be helpful to provide the following information so that you are basing your comments and decisions on factual information. The warranty is now 5 years for amplifiers, 3 years for speakers, 1 year for pedal and accessory products, and 6 months for tubes. See the attached warranty documents that detail the conditions and the countries/regions included. As far as service centers, this is something that I receive questions about regularly and now I know why. When searching for service centers on the website locator, the service center flags that come up on the map only apply to that page of service centers. Be sure to look at all of the pages to left of the map as there are MANY more EU service centers than the first map might suggest. https://mesaboogie.com/support/locations.html?q=europe&t=repair I hope that this helps clear up any confusion, and you can always contact me directly if you encounter difficulties and I will put you in touch with the right folks. 2020-OneYearWarranty_FINAL_200715.pdf 2020-Warranty-FiveYear_FINAL_200715.pdf

I think I have a fairly well established reputation (both here and on TalkBass) for being open and honest on topics where I can be. I am posting this in response to several PM's and e-mails I have received over the past week from some of you, so rather than responding individually I am making the assumption that these are common questions to many of you even if you didn't PM me. International distribution is a VERY complicated thing. For example, I'm responsible for the technical and regulatory side of international safety and EMC compliance. I spend considerable time and effort (which translates to cost for the company) to sort through and follow the laws and rules governing each country (or in the case of the EU, the region). Even though there has been a lot of talk and efforts over the years about bringing all of these rules under a single unified umbrella, in practice that really hasn't happened. Coming up in December, there is an entirely new set of safety standards (UL/cUL/EN/IEC-62368) that all products imported into the EU must comply with. Initially it was promoted as being an easier, less time consuming and less expensive way to bring everybody together for safety compliance but in practice it has been the opposite. It has almost doubled the work for design/compliance engineers as well as the test labs themselves. Add to this the fact that many regions that initially signed onto the new standard and the agreed upon transition dates have begun to back away from their commitments and will require new products to be certified to the older (60065) standard. Since the two standards require different analysis and testing procedures, this means that now we need to maintain two costly certifications per product! All of the Subway amps, for example, are now fully dual certified to both the 60065 AND 62368 standards. Who pays for these costs? Ultimately the customer does. Maintaining customer support, service centers and service agents is another costly aspect to sales (where customer service is better than the bare minimum). This includes training technicians, providing service documentation, multi-language paperwork, and transporting/stocking of parts necessary for service and warehousing product for sale. I understand the frustration regarding distributors like Westside, but at the same time they have done a good job supporting the product. Every service tech that I have dealt with at Westside was in fact very good and well qualified. It's been part of the cost of providing customer support. With the changing of the way global is being done, we have shifted as well, though admittedly it took quite some time. Hopefully this will make our products more attractive to the rest of the world. There are bound to be some learning curve experiences, please bear with us as we take this step forward. Covid-19 has made this more difficult due to many of us (still) working remotely, but once I receive the information and links to service centers in the EU and UK, I will post this information. Warranties will continue on uninterrupted, region by region, since each region shares a different set of governing rules it's necessary to respect the rules and different requirements of each region. I hope this helps you understand the changes.

Yes, we have some very good service centers in the UK who have access to the necessary technical information and resources.

I don't have the specs on the transformer, this is probably better answered by the customer service folks as they have access to more info. than I do. I know that domestic transformers are not safety certified at 50hz as the domestic version testing program only looks at 60Hz operation. The export version (and 120V tap when present) on a universal market transformer will have adequate core area for 50Hz operation even on 120V. I know that response times for support are impacted by COVID-19, many of us are working remotely right now. I assume that this may be the case in the UK as well.

Indeed, he got factory support directly from me, I had already advised him to contact Westside Distribution to have the work done because there were quite a few additional parts that needed to be changed and that the voltage change is fairly complicated. I had also advised him that the transformer should be the same so he wouldn't need a new transformer as long as the part number matched 561852. If the part number is different, then he would need the correct transformer. Most export models (and some USA models) were built with #561852, so the change shouldn't be very expensive. If by some reason the amp has a domestic only transformer (I do not have the build data on all versions throughout the 5 year build cycle), then it will be an expensive change because it's a very costly transformer with 3 primary windings and 3 center-tapped secondary windings). As always, the devil is in the details, Westside Distribution will know or be able to get the details.

With a power attenuator, this is true in most cases, but I was also addressing the use of a DI (with a speaker load) from a speaker output.

Yes, generally. Just be aware that many of the newer amps are in fact bridged, especially class D amps because there are some specific benefits to class d amps that do not apply to linear amps like class AB/G/H amps.

Yes, this is correct. Most class D power amps and all class AB/G/H amps that use bridged output stages are not ground referenced. When used with a load box or a DI (like the captor) at the speaker output, the minus terminal is connected to pin 1 audio ground which is connected to the power system's protective ground at the mixer. This effectively short circuits the minus half of the power amplifier and can cause major damage. It can also damage the mixer as the input ground network is not designed for such currents.

The WD-800 is quite different as it was modeled after the Walkabout. The Subway channel on the TT-800 has more or less the tone of the D-800/D-800+ but with some added texture (like the WD-800) due to the tube driven nature. That's the best I can do with a description, I'm sure there will be more posted about this when players start receiving them and posting their experiences.

This is certainly a significant part of it IMO. Yes, there is distribution which also includes warranty support and customer service. I know from talking with UK players and the service folks at Westside Distribution (UK), that they also take customer service seriously and provide a quality experience to the customer. I'm not defending the pricing, simply explaining that there are additional costs that are responsible for some of the difference. I don't really know why the differences are larger. Good question. The TT-800's Boogie channel is a re-imagination of one of our most classic, iconic bass amps (Randall Smith's design) from over 20 years earlier (the Bass 400 and 400+) with the benefit of such hindsight. The Subway channel is my re-interpretation of the D-800/800+ concept using tube gain stages, something that I was able to take artistic license from my own original design. I don't believe that GK was re-interpreting any of their earlier iconic designs as I can't recall them using tubes in their earlier designs. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.

Yes, in part, including shipping to and within the UK, UK import fees/taxes, UK Customs clearing/brokerage fees, and let's not forget an additional 20% UK VAT. It should be noted that these additional costs are borne virtually entirely within the UK, some of which go towards social programs that we do not have to the same degree in the states. If you knew how much we have to pay for heath care insurance, you might better appreciate what you currently have (supported by those fees/taxes). Different countries of origin pay different fees/taxes so there is some difference here too.

Creasing of the cone will soften the suspension and change the moving mass because that crease will become the new hinge point. I have never tested a driver with mechanical damage like that and found the TS parameters to be anywhere near what they were originally. In fact, the change in TS parameters is one of the gold standards in assessing mechanical damage to a driver. It's used all the time when developing maximum power handling speaker ratings.

I think this is a great gesture of good will towards the industry as a whole.

The back view (showing the numbers on the cone) also shows fatal damage due to mechanical overpowering. This driver will be so far from spec that it won't perform well in the cabinet it was designed for. If you look closely st the front, you will see damage at the transition between the inside surround edge and the cone. Reconing or replacement are the only two options.

It's pretty expensive to support them myself in Europe, but there are a few qualified and authorized shops in the UK that I work with that have a nice track record.

Ask me about sewage treatment plants some day Paul

Thousands of tons (tonnes) of old school dimmers (resistance, auto-transformer/variac, and Triac/SCr based) have been scrapped in the last 10 years, as have tens of thousands of fixtures (instruments) due to the acceptance of LED dimming. The improvements in LED fixtures is really mind blowing, I designed one of the first high brightness room lighting systems about 15 years ago (called house lights in the theatre world) using at the time "exotic" 1 watt devices. There were almost 600 of them on custom made, plug together strips that were powered by redundant switchmode power supplies and zoned DC PWM dimmers. This room (a large custom home theatre for somebody in the movie theatre business) went from needing 4000 watts of halogen lights to only 600 watts of LED lighting. This was before there were any practical codes for LED architectural lighting, it was a proof of concept system that we built to commercial/industrial standards in order to pass design code review and inspection. LEDs are now twice as bright per watt, but this system is still in full operation without a service call in probably 10 years now. [/off-thread]