chyc

20 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If you really have to know the numbers you'll have to build your own cab.

As a Barefaced user I don't need maths to tell me what I like about these cabs. I'll believe my ears rather than determining my sound by looking at a sheet of numbers.

I don't want to know the numbers. I want to make some kind of comparative evaluation using data online, prior to committing. If there were a shop nearby I could visit to compare cabinet X from Barefaced with cabinet A from manufacturer B with cabinet C from manufacturer D then I would do that.

I was looking at various cabinets and Barefaced stood out as having specs that no other manufacturer can touch, so much so that I asked the question here. From this thread is looks like

1. These specs are meaningless from any manufacturer (not just Barefaced) without bounding by other parameters
2. Barefaced define things differently to any other manufacturer

Now if BF genuinely think that these numbers are a better reflection of a cabinet's capabilities I cannot argue with that as I'm not the expert. I may take issue with the fact that BF claim the measuring of watts is an inaccurate measure, then redefine the meaning of cabinet rating so that their wattage rating is higher than others' definition. I may then take further issue with how difficult it is to find that definition (it's on a different website).

The take-home for me is that

• Numbers don't matter, you need to try the cab
• Barefaced numbers, if not misleading, would have misled me had I not asked here
• People seem to like their cabinets

On  the first point, I would perhaps use a dreaded car analogy. If a car can do 0-60mph in 3 seconds you can probably safely infer it will have a high top speed rather than a top speed of 80mph. However, you should not buy a car based on its spec alone, you need to try it.

Carrying on with the car analogy, I'd be a bit miffed if a car manufacturer quoted their 0-60mph as X seconds while burying in their small print that this was measured on a downhill as down-ramps to motorways are commonly when you need the better acceleration.

However, if they sound great, they sound great. I guess I'll never know as the first point is a good one, and I'm a little bit miffed (rightly or wrongly) at feeling misled on the second.

8 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

Admittedly this is different to the way in which most cabinet manufacturers talk about the specs of their products, but there is a reason for this: the reason is that the traditional/usual practice of quoting a single "rated power handling" figure for a speaker cabinet is unsatisfactory and misleading for a number of reasons.

I'd accept that. However I would say that after they've made the case that wattage is misleading, Barefaced have not given the numbers that could give a clearer representation of their cabinet (an on-axis SPL or x-max for example). Instead, they've overloaded XXXW rms with their own meaning.

Surely I can't be the only one to have tripped up on that? Their definition isn't on the same website , and I appreciate the posts that have given the link to that as I'd missed it.

I still cannot fathom in my head why a bigger box can allow for 200W extra power from the amp though.

22 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Go to the Cabinet Design pdf link on the driver catalog page.

My estimation of Eminence has shot up considerably. Those PDFs are incredibly insightful for someone like me with no access to their Eminence Designer software. Off topic but you've given me a lot to digest. Thanks.

12 minutes ago, GisserD said:

im willing to bet cash money that a one call to bobby or alex at barefaced will give you a straight and reliable answer.

Good suggestion! If I can find a spare moment I'll give them a call to find out how they're calculating these numbers.

14 minutes ago, itu said:

This thread is again one of those "gimme 31.5 Hz @ 1 kW, and quickly". These numbers tell very little about loudness, or performance of an amp or a cab.

That's not what I'm asking. What I want to know is why Barefaced's numbers are so different to every other manufacturer out there. Have they got some secret that nobody else knows about?

The numbers they give don't tell the whole story, I get that.  So why mention them? And even if they don't tell the whole story, how can adding extra cabinet space via a tweeter increase the handling by  200W?

47 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Is that range quantified by a measured SPL chart? If not you have no idea what the tolerance is. +/-3dB is one thing, +/-10dB is something else entirely.

I cannot see anything about tolerances on the Barefaced website. Eminence define their "usable frequency range" in the most handwavy way I have seen.

Quote

This is the frequency range for which Eminence feels the transducer will prove useful. Manufacturers use different techniques for determining ‘Usable Frequency Range’. Most methods are recognized as acceptable in the industry, but can arrive at different results. Technically, many loudspeakers are used to produce frequencies in ranges where they would theoretically be of little use. As frequencies increase, the off-axis coverage of a transducer decreases relative to its diameter. At a certain point, the coverage becomes ‘beamy’ or narrow like the beam of a flashlight. If you’ve ever stood in front of a guitar amplifier or speaker cabinet, then moved slightly to one side or the other and noticed a different sound, you have experienced this phenomenon and are now aware of why it occurs. Clearly, most two-way enclosures ignore the theory and still perform quite well. The same is true for many guitar amplifiers, but it is useful to know at what point you can expect a compromise in coverage.

Even with this most generous of definitions of usable frequency range they've given themselves, I cannot see any 12" below 40Hz (except for the LAB12, which I'm discounting as it has a range from 25Hz-100Hz).To Eminence's credit, that's more than I can find on Faital's website or datasheets.

In any case, from what you're saying Bill, I'm inferring that these numbers that are on Barefaced's website are absolutely meaningless without bounding from other parameters. You've also got me wondering on how the BF range is quantified as I cannot find that mentioned anywhere

9 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...the 5mm xmax limits it to 300w through much of the critical midbass range. Watts alone don't tell you everything you need to know.

Agreed. My kettle is rated at 3000W, but it just doesn't have the response that I like. I cannot find the xmax of the Barefaced driver.

Actually scratch that, my kettle is more musical than some cabinets I've heard.

53 minutes ago, grandad said:

Reading the technical info' on the BF website the 12XN550 driver has a 500W thermal power handling.

Recommended amplifier power rating can be higher.

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/12XN550.htm

How on earth did you find that?! It's a useful read. So 600W is the linear excursion limit rather than the thermal limit. I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's not the same thing as 600W rms no? The rms implies to me that 600W would be the thermal limit.Also, I don't know where the competitors' numbers on that page come from. I've looked at the specs on their respective official websites and the Deltalite II 2512 has a sensitivity of 99.9dB. The 12PR300 has a sensitivity of 99dB.

Frequency range on those rival drivers cannot compete with the Barefaced, although I note this range (30Hz-4kHz) isn't on the 12XN550 page that grandad posted.

Also, this doesn't explain how adding a tweeter can boost the rating by 200W to make 800W. I'm imagining two incandescent 100W lightbulbs in a box.

As if by magic, I've found a driver that can handle 800W rms, the Eminence LA12850

It's not a neodymium magnet though, and it has a much narrower frequency range than the Super Compact's advertized 30Hz-4kHz. That 30Hz is another area that I'm struggling to find a matching driver online, but I'll save that for another thread

I've been looking around various cabinet manufacturers and their 1x12 offerings. One thing that has struck me is that no other manufacturer can get close to the RMS wattage that a Barefaced cabinet can take.

The Super Compact is 600W rms

The Super Midget (a 1x12 with a tweeter) is 600W rms

The Big Baby (a 1x12 with a seemingly different tweeter) is 800W rms

How are these numbers possible? I cannot find a single 1x12 driver on the market that is specced for 600W rms let along 800W. Do Barefaced make their own drivers using a secret sauce known only to them? Is the tweeter on the Big Baby really able to soak in an extra 200W or is the bigger cabinet allowing for better cooling? Going by the wattage differential of their 2x12 cabs with/without tweeter it would appear to be the latter, although can that really be true?

I guess you could just put some passive electronics in the cabinet to technically be able to handle 800W when in fact it's just heating the room, but I cannot yet see the purpose of doing something like that.

What am I missing?

7 hours ago, Jack said:

I'm sure you'd have been happy with the Ashdown (although I'm not familiar with that particular amp) but you also won't be unhappy with the GSS. Far from it, everything that Didier makes that I've tried has been fantastic.

Thanks for the reassuring message. I'm really looking forward to giving it a whirl using my upright.

1 hour ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

No problem, what did you go with instead out of interest?

I decided on a GSS 06B400MKD. Small and light like the AA 50 R. Can't really compare these two combos as they have different compromises, but what did it for me was

1) GSS were very personable and helpful, although I now understand your reasons for not replying (email server brokenness and NAMM)
2) There is a YouTube video of this puppy in action with an electric and an EUB.

18 hours ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

Apologies, we had issues with our email server pre Christmas which wasn't resolved until the first week of Jan so none of the info@ emails came through sadly. So if your email was during this period it will have never made it unfortunately. 

No worries. Glad it's all sorted now and yes it is likely my email went into a black hole as the timing fits.

18 hours ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

To answer your question however it should in theory work nicely, will all depend on how loud you need to be on stage... may be worth looking at the 100 at the same time as more power and twice the speakerage...

Good to know. I must confess that I thought you were ignoring me so went with another product. Also doubly annoying to see the Oxford PMT has one in stock that I could have tried (I swear that wasn't there when I looked before). Should my new purchase fall through I'll be taking a closer look at the AA 50 R in future. It looks killer versatile.

1 minute ago, AndyTravis said:

they’ll reply soon I’d reckon - they’re normally pretty good at it.

That's good to hear. Thanks!

Hello all!

What are people's thoughts on using Ashdown's AA-50-R as an upright bass combo? It looks awfully similar to a PJB Cub in terms of advertised spec, but of course the devil is in the details.

I sent an email to Ashdown around a month ago but never got a reply about this. Ideally I'd try one, but

1) There isn't one near me
2) I don't want to try one and break it

16 hours ago, NickA said:

Seems weird that it will emulate different microphones, but not different basses.  It would be nice to switch between Charlie Haden's Vuillaume and John Patitucci's Gagliano!

I'm going to guess that a huge part of their sound is the strings used and playing style more so than the actual bass itself. The first would could be easily achieved by changing the strings over on the Yamaha, the second may be too difficult for everyone except Charlie and John themselves

That's very kind, but I wouldn't buy something without trying first.

Thanks all the same.

Hi Cohle,

Many thanks for that. It looks beautiful but given how individual playing preferences are I don't think I could buy an instrument without playing it first and UK to Poland is too far. In any case GLWTS!

Where are you based?

Thanks y'all for the warm welcome. Most appreciated

@FinnDave I hear you! Both my electrics are from PMT in Oxford, and are both far better quality than is required for someone of my skills.

Speaking of gear, my two electric basses are a fretless Warwick Streamer Stage I and a fretted Sandberg California TT. Amp is a Peavey Combo 115.

However, the bass I'm most comfortable playing is my double bass, through an Acoustic Image Coda.

Hi everyone!

I'm a bassist based in Oxford UK. Strictly amateur, but enjoy playing all styles.

Any Oxford love here?
 

Yamaha's YouTube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM0Hn9zcUMc

7 minutes ago, DanOwens said:

I've got an NS and a Yamaha but no MK. I was considering it for a long time but I can't justify the expense really

Your two basses sounds like my ideal pair to own to be honest. Not sure what the MK would add over these two, but it's hard to judge without playing them myself.

Back on topic, I'll be interested to hear this new Yamaha, but my wallet's telling me that I won't be getting one of these.

My gut reaction is that for the majority of situations I wouldn't be able to tell the difference and so I'd prefer to hear samples in a band setting. Heck, in the mix an NS Design can be mistaken for a real upright!

25 minutes ago, DanOwens said:

Yeah, if it has the portability of an MK and the reliability of Yamaha then it might be worth selling all my other EUBs and buying this one

 

Off topic, but do you own both the MK and Yamaha? To me they look really similar in intent so do you pick one for a particular situation or are they interchangeable?

10 hours ago, aoktdi said:

For my acoustic bass gigging in a jazz combo I own an Acoustic Image CODA Series 4plus Combo Amplifier. Fantastic!! 23 pounds. Two channels; effects; sturdily-constructed and warranted. You won't top this amp as long as your pickups are in order. Mine are old-school Fishman BP-100s.

Yeah, I'm going to be giving some Acoutic Image love on this thread. You just need to be prepared to tailor the sound to the room as it's very sensitive to room boundaries.

The support from Acoustic Image in times of need is staggeringly good. I stll get advice and probably spare parts on my 13 year++ coda. Many years ago some neanderthal "borrowed" my amp and blew my woofer. AI shipped out a new one no questions asked, no cost to me. The amp was around 5 years old by that stage.

The new ones are pricey but the old ones are still performant, and turn up second hand around the place. The warranty statement on their website seems to have changed since I last checked as it no longer covers second hand stuff, which is a shame but Rick at AI is a very nice and approachable person.