TimR

Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. It's what Henry VIII and ISIL are doing. It's what they did to Sadam Hussain's statue and it was an indication of the worse things to come. Maybe an amended plaque be put up on the statue with a fuller explanation. Although I'm aware that the truth doesn't figure highly in the US at the moment.

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1503377605' post='3357636'] how would an African-American feel if he was at your show and was confronted by that symbol of slavery (in his eyes).? It's not about what I think or you think of it, it is what those offended by it think. you may tell me a homophobic joke, I'm not offended by it, you're not offended by it, but someone overhears it in passing and is offended by it.Therefore it IS offensive. [/quote] Apparently nobody needs to actually take offence. It only has to be likely that someone would take offence if they heard it.

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503385181' post='3357669'] In fairness, the very next post used the US spelling of surprised (can't bring myself to repeat it!). [/quote] That's exactly why I thought it had been missed.

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1503344785' post='3357486'] Well... Dunning got it. Kruger got it too. I got it, and I honestly think most people got it. [/quote] I'm surprised more people didn't get it, it was fairly obvious. No one said anything.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503343281' post='3357464'] Why are you obsessed with The Sun? It sells abou 1.5 million copies per day. The adult population of the UK is about 63 million. It's not a useful comparator. And you may recall that when the Channel Tunnel opened the Times, telegraph, independent, even the daily mail ran stories about the amazing engineering feat and the layout of the tunnel. The Sun (presumably for their readership) limited their coverage to explaining which 2 countries it was between and how easy it would be to get cheap booze. [/quote] Well, here's the Telegraph take on it then. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11692452/Confederate-flag-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-controversial.html

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503342889' post='3357461'] It was me that said that. This is why your satire fails. Can and should are different. As stated, it needs plod to be made aware. [/quote] Maybe you can explain then, why aren't there people being locked up at the many American car shows that are regularly held. The cars are driven there with their flags and everything, they must be going on the public roads and passing police cars. I don't get it.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503340888' post='3357431'] I'm not having it both ways. Illegal things are still illegal even if the Police don't know the event is happening. Crimes are committed every second without plod knowing. Something being illegal and someone being convicted for it are not the same thing. You do realise that if a tree falls in a wood and there is no one to hear it - there is still a sound? [/quote] I think you have missed my attempt at satire there earlier. Someone ascertained that you can be arrested for putting a golly in your window... I'm just saying that if you can be arrested for a Golly, you should also be arrested for flying the flag. But never mind...

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503339952' post='3357413'] Please don't assume your lack of knowledge about a particular subject in any way mirrors the rest of the population. Of course it won't be as common knowledge as purely "British" events, but that doesn't mean that knowledge is rare. [/quote] I'll try not to, but the fact that the Sun feels it necessary to educate people on it, would kind of indicate it's not common knowledge. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3621818/confederate-flag-racist-banned/

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503340090' post='3357416'] Why would it have been bought to the attention of the police? [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Why was it bought to the police's attention? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Who would have complained?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]And Why?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]etc etc...[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Nice little u-turn there.[/font][/color] [/quote] Well. You can't have it both ways. It's either racist and illegal or it's not.

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503339493' post='3357405'] The context of the flag hasn't changed. It is seen as a racist symbol over here now. The only thing that has changed is the media coverage and the racist nature of it's symbolism in wider public consciousness. [/quote] Context is probably the wrong word but have people really been flying it over here and decorating their American cars with it as a display of White Supremacy? Did the OP use it in that context? If so why haven't the police been arresting them?

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503330615' post='3357318'] Told about it? Like a lesson? ... Why are you surprised that others might know about a subject that you are not interested in? ... [/quote] Because American history and the civil war seem to me to be specialist subjects and not general knowledge. In fact I'm convinced that up to 2015 most British people would say Dukes of Hazzard when asked about General Lee and if shown the flag would just say Americana. In fact the OP only found out about it by being 'told' via Facebook the other day and another poster only found out about it when his brother 'told' him he should be careful after buying one while he was in the states. i.e. up to very recently a lot of us had absolutely no knowledge of these things. It just wasn't general knowledge.

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503312472' post='3357037'] I'm pretty laid back myself unless some complete tool spells an English word with its US spelling. [/quote] I think that may have gone over a lot of people's heads. Very good. 10/10.

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503328201' post='3357292'] Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society [/quote] Exactly.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503328040' post='3357288'] I'm confused. Are you slagging off Sun readers while at the same time saying they know more about history than you? [/quote] No. History is just remembering facts and stories. It doesn't require any intelligence. I'm not slagging anyone off, it's just a story that I'm not particilarly interested in, haven't read and haven't been told. Seems everyone, so far, on this thread has been told about it in some capacity or another. Don't see anyone who learned about it in school. We certainly didn't cover the American civil war. Most of what we learned was uk insutrial revolution and the war years.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327550' post='3357278'] You didn't. I did. Clearly from some of the other people who recommended books and the like, they did too. [/quote] Yes. And Sun readers.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503325321' post='3357248'] To the inventors of it. To those who displayed it while fighting for the right to keep slaves. To those who display it now, in 2017, while wearing White Power type t-shirts and carrying banners with similar slogans. By all means think of it as a cool bit of design (it is), but don't for a minute believe that it is anything other than a symbol of racism, and even if there are other meanings, the racist element overshadows every neutral or positive slant you might think (without you reading any actual books on the subject) you can apply to it. The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed. [/quote] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015?

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503323532' post='3357214'] Of course they are. That's how google works. And the confederate flag has been a hot topic recently. That doesn't mean for one second that the flag has only represented racism, slavery, subjugation, segregation etc for the last couple of weeks. It has represented that since the civil war! [/quote] To some people.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503321832' post='3357189'] Nonsense? Like this, that was only dropped because plod couldn't prove who put it in the window? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-15429369 [/quote] Why was it bought to the police's attention? Who complained? And Why? The article is very scant on details of the neighbours relationship leading up to the event.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503321760' post='3357184'] Tim 'googled it' R [/quote] Indeed. It doesn't take long to type confederate flag into Google and the first few hits are all from the last few days about various people taking down or refusing to take down the flags. Which don't seem to have been an issue up to now.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503321144' post='3357173'] [b] [size=4][color="#000000"]No doubt it would be difficult to prove INTENT on your behalf - but do you want the hassle of defending this sort of thing? Do you want that in the local press? Mud like that sticks forever [/color]The flag is one thing - the nooses would probably tip a jury over the edge.[/size][/b] [b] [color=#EA6C26][size=1]I[/size][/color]Incitement to Racial Hatred - Part III Public Order Act 1986[/b] [color=#333333][size=3] For an offence to be committed under any of these sections of the Public Order Act 1986, there has to be one of the acts described therein: it has to be "threatening, abusive or insulting", and it has to be intended to or likely in all the circumstances to stir up racial hatred.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] The words "threatening, abusive or insulting" are to be given their ordinary meaning and case law dealing with other provisions of the Public Order Act 1986 can assist with this.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Racial hatred is defined in section 17 of the Act. The prosecution must prove that hatred was intended to be stirred up or that it was likely to be stirred up. "Likely" does not mean that racial hatred was simply possible. We therefore have to examine the context of any behaviour very carefully, in particular the likely audience, as this will be highly relevant.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights [ECHR] allows freedom of expression save in certain limited circumstances. These circumstances include the offences contained within Part III of the Public Order Act 1986 (ss18-23).[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Additionally, Article 17 of the Convention states: "Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention." Relevant case law includes [i]Glimmerveen and Hagenbeek v Netherlands[/i] 18 DR [1987] and [i]Kuhnen v Germany[/i] 56 DR [1988].[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] In deciding upon the public interest of charging these offences it is essential that prosecutors keep in mind that in a free, democratic and tolerant society people are able to robustly exchange views, even when these may cause offence. However, the rights of the individual to freedom of expression must be balanced against the duty of the state to act proportionately in the interests of public safety, to prevent disorder and crime, and to protect the rights of others.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] All such allegations are by their very nature highly sensitive. For that reason, and to ensure a consistent approach, any allegation under this legislation, must be referred by the relevant CPS Area to the Special Crime & Counter Terrorism Division (SCCTD). Referral means the submission of a report by the Area to enable SCCTD and the Area to have an informed discussion about where the responsibility for the case should lie.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] When an Area becomes aware of such a case, it should be referred to SCCTD within seven days. If it is decided that the case should be prosecuted as an offence of incitement to racial hatred, SCCTD will take over the conduct of the case from the Area. If SCCTD considers that it is clearly a case where incitement to racial hatred does not apply, the case should be returned to the Area within seven days of that decision being made.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] If SCCTD decides to deal with a case, the file is held there and dealt with there. Thereafter, cases can only proceed with the consent of the Attorney General.[/size][/color] [/quote] Relax. It's just a flag. They're not holding a rally and making hate speeches. What a load of nonsense.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503320502' post='3357159'] I think quite a lot would. The confederate army was fighting to keep slavery. That's what the civil war was about. My knowledge of American history is scant, but I do know that at least. [/quote] No. In the US upto about a year ago it was just seen by the majority of Americans as a symbol of southern American pride. It's only in the last few weeks it's become more than that by a larger proportion. The war wasn't about Slavery as such but the right to keep their lives the same, which included keeping slaves. Looks like an awful lot of big, long established American institutions are now hurriedly removing the flag from their premises, ensignia and regalia and distancing themselves from it. That's very sad.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1503319975' post='3357151'] ^^^ This is evident. [/quote] What proportion of the UK do you think do? I think it's nonsense to believe that people in the UK flying confederate flags are white supremacists. In the same way as assuming anyone flying a Union Jack votes UKIP. It's all about context.

I have absolutely no interest in American history and until I read this thread I had no idea that the flag had anything to do with white supremacists. It's just one of the old pre-independence US flags. I really can't believe anyone in the UK would believe you were white supremacists. Is there even such a thing in the UK?

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503167136' post='3356222'] I'll spare you the horror story behind '[i]Catherine et son ensemble[/i]' (recounted elsewhere here...); I agree that it is all too often the case that the inviting band turns out to be not as 'inviting' as all that..! That's part of the deal, though; when it's good, it is very, very good, but when it is bad it is rotten..! [/quote] My gig last night went down well with the audience. The band were ok, but not excellent or terrible. We got paid more than agreed, so that's always a bonus.

Arrived at the gig last night. Plugged my bass in, did a level check. All was good. Unplugged my bass (active Ibanez) went away and socialised until we were due to start. Went back on stage and tried to plug my bass in. Jack wouldn't go in at all. Gave bass a shake and a small piece of metal fell out of the jack socket. That's the socket broken then. Spare bass came out straight away.