TimR

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500046696' post='3335365'] I've been talking about attitude. Blue [/quote] Well, I got myself involved in a band. Older guys, practiced hard and sounded great in rehearsal, pro gear, pro attitude to getting and pricing gigs, looked smart, great setlist, on paper it was a licence to make money. Unfortunately as soon as they stepped on stage they all fell apart musically. I think I did 4 gigs before walking away. Shame because the drummer was excellent, but you can't play a gig with just drums and bass while everyone else is making mistakes and forgetting whole sections. Sometimes attitude and application just isn't enough.

Taken in isolation per band per gig, it's not a lot. If you were a pub though £250 a week works out at £13k, potentially £2k-£5k per year per venue on unpaid taxes. Scale that up to brewery level... Assuming they're not engaging hobby bands of course. But while it's all cash, there are no checks and balances in place.

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1500040428' post='3335304'] Most are talking about the audience, not noticing the difference in bass tone. Nothing to do with music difference [/quote] In some cases yes. But I think Blue is talking about attention to detail in music.

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500038446' post='3335289'] TimR - sounds like you've reached that peak because you have put in the additional effort. Looking at your background in playing and how you describe it you have obviously gained a vast amount of experience over the years. So i guess that answers the OP question in a way. To get a flawless or a good performance requires a lot of dedicated hard work and a drive to put that job in front of other things in life. I guess that's why professional musicians are where they are too. It has to be a balance of what you feel is important to you. Dave [/quote] Yes. But the experience is cumulated. In my case it's sporadic but over several years. For a pro I would expect that experience to be gained quickly in a few years. I think it's more about how you approach your playing. If you join a covers band and stay in that band for years playing with the same musicians concentrating on exact facsimiles of tunes, never having a lesson, you're not going to develop much. Go to college for 3 years and you'd come out with far more experience and knowledge than I have. We also talk about developing big ears. That's listening to lots of different types of music and being able to hear where tunes are going. I.e. Knowing what and where the chord changes are going to be. There are people who are open to music and new ideas and there are people who have very closed minds. Really what I'm saying is that Pro's and more experienced musicians have a massive tool kit and make it look easy, and to some extent it does become extremely easy. There is still the occasional tune that requires a lot of work. Hit me with your Rhythm stick is a tune I have to learn. I've always shied away from learning it. I'm expecting it to take a while (maybe an hour or two?) to transpose and get the right feel. But now I have reason and an excuse to learn it. That's one reason why changing bands often is quite an important driver for me.

[quote name='Panamonte' timestamp='1500026734' post='3335187'] ... [/quote] That's a great story and something that's probably happened to all of us in some form or another. That's the skill of being a good musician though. Someone who just learns the tune parrot fashion and can't adapt when things don't go to plan would be stuck and freeze. Keep smiling and wait for a queue or a nod. Communication, communication, communication.

The pub will have cash in the till. I'm guessing the issue would be how the landlord takes that cash out of the till to pay you. All the cash going over the bar will be accounted for and put into the till as everything is electronically ringed up and has to balance at the end of the evening. Unless staff are pouring drinks for free and pocketing the cash. In which case the stock levels will reduce quicker than the till receipts increase. In a tied house the brewery will notice. In a free house or part free/part tied house there would be a bit more freedom on the beer side. Ultimately the person paying you could easily take £250 out of the till and give you £150 and pocket the change. .

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500023953' post='3335163'] Agree with you on reasons Blue. I do regard you as a Professional musician tho as you earn a living from playing. Not sure whether TimR is also a full time musician or is it a hobby. My question was for TimR on how he managed to get to that level himself. If he's a full time musician then i would expect that kind of level. If its a part time job then i'm curious as to how he reached that level. Its not a sarcastic reply to TimR and not having a dig at anyone here. I am curious to know how a part time bassist achieves that higher level. Some guys are just sh*t hot at playing and have a natural ability and that would be the answer to my question. If it's solely down to putting in the additional effort and hard work then that kind of explains why some people are just better at it than others and partially answers Blue's original query on this thread. Dave [/quote] It's just down to making yourself available to play in many different situations with as many different people as possible. Go to Jam sessions, move bands when you think you're not getting gigs or making progress musically, let people know you're available to dep. A lot of people claim they don't have a lot of time to do things but I'm a great believer that if you want to do something you'll find the time. My other hobby is running. It takes up about 7-8 hours a week. But that's only an hour every other day and 3 hours on a Sunday. People say they'd love to do that but don't have the time. Then in the next breath ask if I watched X on TV last night? No, instead of spending that hour watching X I went out and ran. Yes, there are people who work very long hours and have big commitments, those people will be good at work and their other commitments. As you say somewhere along the line you have to draw the line about how much time you can reasonably spend on your 'hobby' without impacting on other things. I've been playing for 35 years as a semi-pro, theatre pits, jazz trios, function bands, thrash metal bands, rock bands, pub and club bands. You just get a feel for how a gig will go and sometimes it's not worth putting in another 10% of effort to improve something by 1%. When the punters won't notice the difference. A three minute pop song shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes for a band up have gig ready. Some should be gig ready on first or second play through, or even just play at the gig. There's a limited number of songs (standards) that do the rounds and everyone owes it to themselves to just learn them.

Regards professionals having more time to practice, most of the professionals I know don't practice in the same way as hobby players. Once you have achieved a certain amount of experience, playing and learning new material is extremely simple. I have a dep job with a band in 4 weeks where I have to play 35 tunes that I've never played before. I haven't practiced one of them yet let alone met the rest of the band.

My take on this is we all have different levels of talent available to us in our bands. Music is an art form, we are creating art, not a piece of engineering that either works or doesn't. Putting on a performance works on a law of diminishing returns. There comes a point where you're not going to give a significantly better performance with the amount of time and talent available to you. At this point you have to ceed that it's 'good enough' and 'the punters won't notice any difference" if you spent another rehearsal trying to polish what you have. That level is going to be different for every band. It's not an admission of failure, or laziness, it's just being realistic. It has nothing to do with striving to be your best, you may be performing at the limits of the bands ability.

Good point. There's probably also a very small proportion of people being paid cash and claiming benefits.

[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1499888071' post='3334374'] OK. You think they're being above board. I don't so here we part ways. [/quote] Lescherions stated it would be nice if the government looked at Google and Amazon first, a few posters also expressed the same sentiment. I'm just saying they did and changed the law which changed the behaviour of the large corporations. I'm not sure an expensive lawyer makes a lot of difference. Ultimately it would be down to a jury to decide what was reasonable.

[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1499887198' post='3334366'] Nice link TimR only the "loophole" is so good it gets mentioned twice. HMRC can't do a thing unless [color=#333333] ‘arrangements cannot reasonably be regarded as a reasonable course of action’.[/color] [color=#333333]Fine point of law best argued by well paid lawyers which corperations have aplenty. The "[/color][b]The ‘double reasonableness’ test" is an expensive thing for HMRC to prove.[/b] [/quote] So much so that both Google and Amazon have already changed the way they operate as a result?

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1499880771' post='3334304'] The Isle of Jersey, and several others, still have their 'special' position concerning taxes, I believe. It's maybe 'fixed' for Amazon etc (I'm not really convinced, as it happens...), but there are still gaping 'loopholes' for the fiscally astute to benefit from. [/quote] http://www.rossmartin.co.uk/penalties-a-compliance/compliance/1259-general-anti-abuse-rule-gaar-at-a-glance

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1499884365' post='3334336'] Meaning? [/quote] [quote name='Rich' timestamp='1499862369' post='3334124'] Folks, I have edited several posts to remove political content. No more please. [/quote]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499868067' post='3334173'] Still a drop in the ocean when compared to what G4S, Amazon and google etc [b]didn't[/b] pay. [/quote] FIFY. It's now being paid as the loopholes have been closed.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1499857006' post='3334066'] I'd be surprised if you couldn't, I'm not an expert, but I don't think it makes a difference if it's your hobby, you're still getting an income from it. It's surprising what you can claim each year, stage clothes, suits, black trousers etc, strings and other equipment, software, I can even deduct my Mmus fees, which are classed as personal development. [/quote] You can't if it's a hobby, only if you can demonstrate that you're making money from it in order to run it as a profit. It's either a hobby or a business. If it's a business and you're not making a profit they'll start asking questions.

They have done. See my post above.

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1499854745' post='3334040'] Correct. I do indeed have a great accountant and have received a tax rebate every year since I employed him. It's only when you see the figures at the end of the year, of what it actually costs you to gig regularly, that you realise how much it costs to persue our "hobby". Which is exactly why you should bother. [/quote] I didn't think you could get a tax rebate if it was your hobby. If you can then I'm going to claim a tax rebate for all the things I buy to enable me to race. All that's required is a diary showing gigs and payments and recipts of all your outgoings. I think you can even claim for mileage to and from rehearsals, MP3 downloads, and any other 'equipment', but only against offsetting payments for gigging to demonstrate that it's a hobby. You can't offset the loss you make against your day job taxes unless you're a self employed full time musician of course and then you're actively trying to make a profit.

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1499816057' post='3333885'] Be nice if the government had a look at Amazon, PayPal and Starbucks before jumping on window cleaners and pub bands. ... [/quote] Politics. But they did and in 2013 and 2016 bought in new laws that have effectively stopped them in their tracks. Amazon now pay tax on all UK delivery transactions when previously they were hiding it in Luxumberg, and Google have now stopped the 'licensing' activities. It's a shame the government aren't a bit more vocal about their success in this area.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1499804543' post='3333786'] Green King pubs, at least this in my area, are no longer paying bands in bundles of readies, it is transferred to a nominated bank account after the gig. Which obviously means extra work for the bass player who then has to withdraw the cash and split it amongst the rest of the band. [/quote] This is where you have to start being careful. It's one thing getting paid £50 into your bank account for each gig. Once you start getting all the bands money paid directly to you and then start paying it out, it can start to look like something else. Ultimately the HMRC aren't interested in chasing bands for money. It costs them more than they'd receive.

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1499800846' post='3333745'] From the latest rumblings from the govt it seems they are genuinely looking to end these sorts of practices. If landlords are obliged to go through with it then could have an impact on how many on here go about their hobby perhaps? [/quote] They'd probably have to end paying cash for drinks somehow first.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499532013' post='3332051'] Depends on the type of band your in Tim. In my band I only have control and opinions on my performance and stage presence. Unfortunately we're not the type of band that reviews and has open discussions on this topic. Blue [/quote] No. What I mean is, your performance needs to fit in with what the rest of the band are doing. If you're rocking it up and leaping about the stage, but everyone else is fretboard gazing and the singer is read words off a music stand, you'll look out of place. Similarly if everyone else is rocking it up and leaping about and you're fretboard gazing, then you'll also look out of place. So for you to see what you should be doing, you need to make a reference video for yourself.

You need to fit in with what the rest of the band. Don't be 'in the wrong band'. The only real way of doing that is to video the gigs from the back of the venue capturing the whole stage. You don't need up close shots, it's the overall band impression that needs to be coherent.

Each device wil have a rating written on it either in Watts or VA (they're effectively the same thing as far as you're concerned.) Add them all up. That'll give you the load.

Loft insulation can also be used as acoustic wadding, it's used as acoustic insulation in buildings. You're effectively stopping the energetic short wavelength, high frequencies. The long wavelength low frequencies require a large mass (heavy box) to damp them. .