TimR

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1487678759' post='3241716'] Lots of people see a band rehearsal as being the time to learn the song. I know a lot of people see it as a social event too. The most recent band I played for that rehearsed was for a NYE gig at a racetrack. We were all given our individual parts weeks in advance. We were expected to learn them at home, the practice was just basically to make sure that everything worked, which is what a rehearsal in my mind is for. [/quote] Yes. Practice at home rehearse with band. A band practice is where you pick parts of a song to work on because the arrangement isn't falling into place.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487675352' post='3241676'] It's interesting that we see a lot of comments about people not wanting to play in a covers band from those that have never tried mainly, the presumption is that once you have nailed Brown Eyed Girl you are all set and there's no skill or challenge to be had but in reality and especially for dep players there's keys,tempos, syncopation, stops and starts, nods and winks going on to keep you busy, the best players do it without looking troubled at all maybe with nothing more than an email a few days before the gig, I know dep players that would do a better job of my regular gig unrehearsed. [/quote] I think there are a lot of musicians who get extremely anal about copying a tune exactly. If you're learning a new tune there is a lot of production junk in modern music. The skill lies in being experienced enough to know what is junk and what is a key part of the tune. Nailing runs that are synchronised with a drummer are nice to have. I'd never spend hours learning one without having heard what the drummer is going to do as the chances are he's not going to have nailed it (unless he is one of those anal types). Again I've spent too long in bands where getting the song exactly as per the original has mattered more than getting the song sounding good.

Yes. I've been in too many bands that don't have a plan when you walk into the rehearsal room and don't even have a plan for the next rehearsal when the leave the room. That's a waste of time. You only get tight by gigging but you all need to be confident walking out on stage knowing you know what's happening. So there's a balance to be had.

I'd make a list of all the songs and take it to the next gig. Every time you get through a song and are happy then cross it off, any song you're unhappy with put a mark next to it. Go home practice the songs you've marked and work out whether you know them or whether the band are doing something odd. With a new band I wouldn't be happy until I'd played each song four or five times with them. Whether rehearsing or on the fly at a gig.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487540471' post='3240682'] Who said eating pub nuts would do you any harm ? [/quote] It was in the Daily Mail. But yeah, ok. Sorry mate, didn't realise they were for regulars only. .

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487530908' post='3240524'] There's a queue , mate. Also, dont touch the nuts in a bowl on the bar. [/quote] Get out you youngster. I've been eating snacks off the bar all my life and it never did me any harm. All that new fangled scientific analysis. Poke it.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1487446679' post='3239917'] There are a couple of interesting points here, and it's true Basschat is largely composed of men of a certain age range. Partly this may be because that's who are drawn to the site, but any concerted effort to bring a more diverse range of people here would feel a bit contrived. I reckon we could do better at not making people outside of the usual demographic feel uncomfortable though. I'm thinking of things like the time when it was quite reasonably suggested that incessant knob jokes were perhaps not the best way for middle aged guys to interact with women closer to their kids' age, and people didn't seem willing to take that on board. [/quote] Also we don't use text speak here so it pretty much is a non starter with anyone who can't spell or use proper grammar. I was on a forum where it was rigidly enforced. Kids lasted about 10 posts before they'd had enough.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1487439088' post='3239842'] of course give that the definition of Bigot is, and I copy and paste, 'a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions' means if you call somebody a bigot you are in fact a bigot [/quote] No. It's perfectly possible to tolerate bigotry. Calling someone a bigot doesn't mean you can't tolerate them being one. .

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1487437650' post='3239830'] How many points do I get for 'hand-wringing, do-gooder SJW liberals'? Quite a lot, I would have thought. [/quote] You have already won the internet several times over.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487428979' post='3239733'] On the button Skank Thats because of the festeringly annoying F%55%ing PC brigade that now infiltrate every aspect / permeate everyone's lives. I don't care what colour, sex or creed they are. But they're out there in all forms, trying to correct the most miniscule aspects in life, to be right & fair. Life will never be those things. Ever. [/quote] Full points for the use of 'PC brigade' there.

Good luck. Come and join us on the 'Long Distance Running' thread. Alghough we've been a bit quiet lately. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/184991-long-distance-running/page__st__810#

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1487349420' post='3239224'] we seem to be mixing up a whole load of different issues and ideas here. Positive discrimination feels wrong, because it's making people select people for jobs, college places, whatever, based on a selection criteria that is not to do with being the best applicant. But it's sometimes a necessary evil when there are issues of institutional racism/sexism/ageism. The fictional example from Mikel is actually a good one to pick apart. The reason that the male applicant is deemed to be better than the female one is based on a range of factors, one of which is experience. How is that relevant for the job? It's immediately discriminatory on the grounds of age - 50 year olds will have more experience than 25 year olds. If it's an industry in which women are chronically under represented then it's very likely that male applicants will have more experience than females so it adds the question of whether it's sexist. So to just demand "experience" with no context can be ageist and sexist, and becomes a barrier to entry. If however it's "experience of doing X, Y & Z because they will be a core part of doing the job" then it's completely reasonable to demand it. And worse than this, we don't realise we're doing it. We are a species of very limited imagination. We think that we are brilliant at our jobs, so we think that anybody like us will be brilliant at the job we are hiring for. We've got twenty years experience in the industry so clearly people with 20 years in the industry will be better than people with only five years in the industry. This is exactly why company boards are full of middle aged white men, because middle aged white men who make the appointments think that middle aged white men are brilliant at running companies. And there's this: [url="https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover"]https://www.theguard...ment-undercover[/url] it's a few years old but it's a perennial chestnut that the media will update every few years - I recall seeing something very similar in the last couple of months. Add to this that studies have shown that diverse companies, the ones whose boards aren't full of middle aged white men, perform much better. Diversity of age sex and ethnicity isn't just token, it brings diversity of thinking and companies who embrace this tend to do better. Maybe Mikel needs to think about appointing the woman because it's time for some fresh ideas that yet another middle aged white man isn't going to bring. [/quote] Indeed. We don't realise we're doing it. It's the way we've always done it. It's the right way to do it and the way things should be done. Anyone who says any different is some kind of lefty or feminist etc Yep. That's bigotry right there.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1487347245' post='3239198'] The 'reason' only one woman applied (in this hypothetical situation) is because it was constructed as a hypothesis. So the reason there is only one woman is obviously [i]not[/i] 'down to inbuilt sexism and what we see as norms in society' but because the situation was described that way*. I would suggest that your frankly disconcerting inability to spot the difference between a hypothetical and a real world situation is because you were pleasurably distracted by the opportunity to trot out the 'approved' answer, i.e. 'Inbuilt sexism and societal norms must be challenged'. An un-focussed platitude of this nature would be understandable if coming from a crafty young lad intent upon ingratiating himself into a feminazi's pants but quite unfathomable when the proponent and his audience alike are (with a few exceptions) flabby old men. More to the point, Tim, there are about 29,997 men and three women on BassChat. What are [i]you[/i] doing to encourage more female members? Because, trust me, ponderously man-splaining about 'sexism' isn't going to have the chickies storming the turnstiles crying 'Whoa, that TimR, I wants me a piece of [i]his [/i]ass'. * [size=2]Addendum: It now seems there may have been [u]two[/u] hypothetical women although I must admit the possibility that one or both of them may have been a hypothetical man [i]identifying[/i] as a hypothetical woman. Anyway, let us not be judgemental. Time's a-wasting and there are norms to be challenged in the top meadow.[/size] [color=#faebd7][size=2].[/size][/color] [/quote] Brilliant as usual. Possibly coloured by spending too much time working at the BBC. .

Again. I'm not talking about forcing people to chose in order to balance statistics. It's the other way around. You use statistics to see is there is a balance. Then you delve further into the results. As Daz says. The real question is why has only one woman applied? And that is more likely down to inbuilt sexism and what we see as norms in society. The only way to change it is to challenge it and ask people to question why they think that way.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487329834' post='3238983'] What, except you? Probably because you are so much cleverer than we are. Why don't I wear a skirt on a regular basis? Because I don't like having cold legs, or having to keep my legs crossed, for modesty, every time I sit down. That's why. I have worn the kilt, for weddings, as I can wear the the Northumberland tartan. For everyday use I would find it irritating. What you fail to understand is that males and females are different. We think and act differently. Not better or worse, just different. Many learned papers have been produced trying to understand why, and failed. Perhaps its simply human nature. Humans are massively complex and elusive, it must drive statisticians bonkers that they cant put us tidily into any box. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Oh, and there are loads of covers bands round here with female members. We have two female singers in our band. My mate is the drummer in an otherwise all female band. [/quote] Males and females are not that different. Hormones drive the way we feel and act and so certain activities will gain more men and some will gain more women. However that doesn't go anywhere close to why activities that neither sex have an advantage in are prodominatly one sex. The current record holder for the double Bob Graham round is a woman. Women are better at long distance endurance events than men and yet there are more men involved. Why are there so few women racing drivers or footballers when they're much better than men? How do you explain ethnic minorities then?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487328072' post='3238957'] That's my point, as long as she's allowed to why does it matter? [/quote] Because young girls are underrepresented in engineering. Which means that more young girls who would like to do engineering are put off because it's a job done by 'hairy arsed blokes', even though they'd quite like to do it, which means they continue to be underrepresented and the circle continues. A young girl who goes into heavy engineering is considered 'odd'. Societal pressure. Engineering is a good example but MOBO is effectively doing the same as a TV advert featuring only young girls does for engineering. .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487327060' post='3238943'] If one is a factory making welded metal products and the other is a telesales business they are unlikely to have staff from similar groups, as long as a middle class girl isn't turned away from applying to be a welder and a hairy arsed bloke is allowed to work in the office I don't have a problem with it, as Skank says making a young girl be a welder just to massage the figures would be wrong. [/quote] Making anyone do something they don't want to do is wrong. Why doesn't the young girl want to be a welder?

I also have a big suspicion that people don't understand statistics. Take this example: Two towns of the same size. Town A has 60% people who are in group A and 40% who are in group B. For 10 people in a job you expect to see 6 from group A and 4 from group B Town B has 10% people who are in group A and 90% in group B. For 10 people in a job you expect to see 1 from group A and 9 from group B. All good so far. Everything works fine and everyone is happy. Looking at the two towns combined 35% are in group A and 65% are in group B. But if you now look at the towns individually but incorrectly apply the result from the combined statistics. Group B are under represented in Town A and Group A are under represented in Town B. So statistics don't tell you the whole story, they're not nonsense but you need to understand how they work and what exactly they're telling you.

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1487320966' post='3238852'] ... as though they fail to understand the disadvantages that come with being from an ethnic minority in our society, even today. *I hope I've not stepped on your toes there TimR [/quote] Quite.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487281294' post='3238684'] You have a very strange view of the world if you think everything is governed by statistics. I know it would be all neat and tidy that every business and every occupation had 3% ethnic minorities involved, because that is the population percentage,but people dont operate like that, humans do what they want or like to do not what statistics say they should. [/quote] Again everyone is missing the point. People only want to do things that fit into society's view of 'normal'. There are people who don't fit into society's box but we call them eccentrics. Choice is an illusion and is heavily influenced by what other people (and yourself) expect you to choose. Why don't any of you guys want to wear skirts? It's a simple question. Think about it. Then look around at jobs that are traditionally done by men and women and ask why men and women have 'chosen' to do those jobs. Why don't women choose to be in cover bands then? Statistics tell you everything about how things are distributed, they don't tell you why they're distributed or how to distribute them. .

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487276211' post='3238623'] But everything isnt equal, or average. Firstly people have to want to do something, they have to aspire to it. Secondly you have people who do an activity but have no desire to take it to a competitive level or to even do it in public. Lies, damn lies and statistics. [/quote] But there should be an equal number of both sexes shouldn't there? If 3% of the population are black then that 3% should be represented in every activity. So yes. There is the proof. We don't live in an equal society. .

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487255890' post='3238417'] Why? There are lots of ethnic minorities in Britain, does every activity have to look at all the percentages and make sure every one is represented in everything, regardless of weather they want to be? Positive discrimination is still discrimination. It has nothing to do with my "Ingrained attitude" All popular music is MOBO, I have already pointed that out. Claiming the British have the same racial leanings as the most Redneck section of the US Southern States is also very wide of the mark. We are talking music here and from what I can see no one has any problem with black or ethnic musicians. I lived in rural France for two years and did not expect the populace to bend over backwards and modify there customs and lifestyle to accommodate me, I stood out because I was English, even amongst the black and ethnic minority French. Its peoples differences that make them interesting, imagine how boring the world would be if we all looked and spoke the same. If someone wants to make music, or run a marathon or swim the Atlantic, its there choice and there desire that will get them there, regardless of ethnicity or gender. Take Stevie Wonder. Not just black, but blind from birth. Did he become one of the most influential and best selling musicians of the late 20th century because of positive discrimination? No, he did it because he was highly talented and he had the desire and drive to get to the very top. Was he a great blind,black musician/ songwriter? No, he was a great musician/songwriter, period. [/quote] Nobody said anything about 'making sure'. I said expect. That's from the law of averages. You would probably (if everything was equal) expect to see 50% of musicians to be women. Are they? There are certain activities that a large proportion of people don't do, not because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because no one expects them to. Including themselves. That's ingrained. If a man wants to wear a skirt, there's nothing in law that says he can't. The expectation is that he won't and if he does, people will question it, some people will even say it's wrong. Would I wear a skirt? No. Why? Because I think it is a piece of woman's clothing and I have no desire to wear one. But why do I think it's a piece of woman's clothing? Scotsmen wear kilts, and Hari Krishna monks wear dresses. It's been ingrained by society that men do not wear skirts. All MOBO does is give certain people some encouragement.

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1487251015' post='3238367'] The media are everyone's worst enemy, to be fair. [/quote] Agreed.

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1487250473' post='3238359'] It's not that most white people ought to apologise, but rather be more aware of their privilege and be less entitled about it. As an example: complaining about MOBO awards needing to exist. [/quote] The only thing I have against it is it does seem to have gone the other way and risks being sycophantic. "Oh, I feel really bad about the way black people are treated. You all have such a hard time and are all so repressed." Certain elements of black community (and extreme feminist women) play on this and turn it around for a completely different agenda. Yes, it's what the MOBOs are for and why it exsists and shouldn't be an opportunity to grind an axe, just a celebration of culture. Unfortunately the media have yet another agenda.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487188828' post='3237951'] I have no time for bigots, but looking at your first comments.... If the awards are in Britain its hardly surprising as the country is mainly white, middle class, so the fact most of the judges and winners are the same is not a shock. [/quote] You would expect that 3% would be represented though. Positive discrimination is only there to try and redress the balance. Look at the London Marathon. Their stated aim is to have a 50:50 split of men and women. In order to do this they lower the time requirements for women disportianately. Look at any other marathon and it's full of men in their mid 40s women are very under represented. Why is this a problem? Why are women under represented? Is it because they're not interested in running? No. It's because they're interested in running but when they turn up to marathons it's an elitist activity and society says women are not as good as men. There was no women running London until 1981 and no women's marathon in the olympics until 1984! Women running marathons? How ridiculous. Compare this to how blacks were treated in the US, and are even now. It's part of society's institutionally ingrained attitudes. It's so deep that we all don't see it and posts like yours just illustrate that.