TimR

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1473016661' post='3126122'] ??? Girls wearing T-shirts? Hanging? That would certainly create a spectacle. [/quote] I need to have another look at the autocorrect on my iPhone. It's making up all sorts of things. "Young". Since the latest OS upgrade It goes back and changes words in sentences even after I've written them correctly.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473014470' post='3126093'] We don't have a promoter but we've played that music festival for about the last five years. I think we got our foot in the door from playing the 'Sunday Live' gigs at Hertford Corn Exchange (a series of Sunday afternoon gigs during the autumn/winter months). Unpaid gigs with no entrance fee and an audience of about 30-40 out for an afternoon drink before Sunday dinner and an opportunity to play on a decent stage with a good PA and sound guy. 50 minute sets of mostly original songs with a few covers thrown in to keep the audience awake . We also got a support slot for Neville Staple (Specials) through the same route, just because we had a couple of ska-ish songs at the time. Actually, that was a paying gig, in theory, but because we're useless at promotion only a few people said they'd come to see us on the door so we didn't 'sell' enough tickets. Still, we didn't care and had a fun time anyway [/quote] I suspect you have a leader who is actually a pretty good salesman. You just don't realise it. You don't just walk into a venue with your gear and start playing. Somewhere along the line someone has had to persuade someone to let you play. How many venues that have been completely empty have you said afterwards "We should play there more often, it was great fun"? and how many venues would you play if you knew there would be no audience? I suggest the person who books your gigs does actually do some homework, you just may not be party to it. Our band leader works very hard behind the scenes booking gigs. I've done it myself, it doesn't just happen and really most of the band don't need to know or understand that side of things. .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1473016025' post='3126114'] People are funny with gigs, if you can sell them a ticket a few weeks before for £2 they'll travel half way around the world instead of losing that £2! [/quote] Yes. See my argument on the other thread.

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1473014180' post='3126086'] to an extent i agree, to another i disagree of course a band has to promote itself, that goes without saying, and with social media it is made a lot easier almost to the point bands have become lazy with promotion. but if you are to believe some of the comments on another thread (you know which one i mean), bands are being exploited by promoters when they agree to play for free with the promoter taking the money. if that's the case, surely it's in the promoters best interest to promote the show to get people in so they can make money off the bands they are exploiting by getting them to play for free? [/quote] It's not a mutually exclusive situation. My guess is if a band has a big following, the promoter makes his money more easily, promotes the band more as it's a more productive use of his time. Just like its a more productive use of the bands time, effort and money to stay at home and practice, than it is to carry all their gear two hours up the motorway, set up and play in front of no people. (Of course they didn't know this when they left their houses, but judging by a few comments on this thread, had they asked here what the venue was like before travelling, they may have been in a better position to chose the right option.) If the band has a small following, not much in the way of promotional material and isn't proactive in promoting themselves, it's a much harder job for him. .

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473009208' post='3126011'] That's not my experience over the past 10 years or so. We might give a gig a mention on our individual Facebook pages, but most of the time we simply apply to play at some event, like the Hertford Music Festival I mentioned in another thread, or get invited somewhere, very often places we've played previously. Sure, we're not playing to hundreds or thousands but I can only remember one gig where the other bands outnumbered the audience and 50 or 60 people in a small pub is generally enough to create a good atmosphere anyway. Again, I guess it all depends on ambition. We're quite happy with gigging once a month on average and we find that we don't have to actively 'compete' to get those gigs, so we're perfectly happy with everything. I'm sure if we were aiming to 'make it big' or were dependent on gigging income then we'd fail dismally, but we're not. We just enjoy writing and playing songs and feel lucky to be able to do so without having to put in lots of 'collateral effort'. The problem with discussions such as these is that a perfectly valid point for one band situation is touted as a general point for every band, which is clearly ridiculous. There are many different circumstances and therefore many different approaches. What works for one band may not work for another, but that doesn't mean either are wrong. I certainly wouldn't recommend our band's relaxed approach to anyone with serious ambition but I would suggest there is room for all. [/quote] I'm not talking about 'making it big', I'm just talking about being selective with the places you chose to play and making sure that your audience feel that they're missing out on something special if they don't attend. Hertford music festival has a reputation for good music. The promoters will be queueing up to get their bands on. Most of your work is already done and if the audience like you and you get asked back that's really good. On the other hand, if you were playing one-off gigs to small audiences it's a different game altogether. In the other thread we talk about being selective where you play and make sure that you make the most of every gig. In particular, if you're not being paid, make sure you get something out of it. It's very hard to have 'fun' if no one turns up. It's difficult for an agent or promoter to have a real interest in promoting you if you don't already have a reasonable following. My worry is if your 'fans' aren't following you arround then maybe you're not actually playing music they really like. We have a core of 12 people who follow us to practically every gig. It's only 12 but it's an indication that at least some people enjoy what we do. (We don't even play originals and they could see any band play 40% of our set in any pub) .

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1473006733' post='3125982'] I think you're missing one of the saddest points made by your own observations... The 'next generation' will be more interested in music like electronic music or acoustic material and probably less interested in 'bands'/traditional musicianship. Covers bands 20 years from now will either be a guy with a laptop and a launchpad blasting out classic dub tracks or a guy with an acoustic and a looper covering Ed Sheeran. [/quote] That's what they were saying in the 80s. Sorry. It's never going to happen. .

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1473006449' post='3125977'] I thin k you are probably correct on this, we do accept that age is against us and to be fair this project was based around recording the best music we could and if we got some decent gigs out of it then that was an additional bonus, so we didn't bring a crowd, no surprise (we actually stepped in last minute to fill a hole, so couldn't really promote it in advance, not that it would have made much difference if we had!) but we played with a young post hardcore band (whatever that may be!) on their first European tour who to some extent are relying on merchandising sales to fund the tour and a truly phenomenal Australian beat box performer who just blew my mind! It is not as if the event didn't have diversity and appeal. What does annoy me is people moaning locally that "you're always playing in Leicester" (20 miles away so hardly the other side of the world) so when we do play locally and invite those that moaned they still can't be bothered to get off their lazy asses and attend. I know I can play in a covers band and trot out the much hated Sex On Fire to our hearts content but what are the next generation of covers bands going to have to pick from if there is no one creating new music that anyone is interested in? [/quote] People are interested in new music. They're only interested in Sex on Fire because that's what they're used to hearing and lots of bands equate doing requests as giving people what they want. It's not very efficient playing your music to small crowds. I assume you pushed your Facebook page during the gig and you arrived a few hours early and had hung girls out in the area wearing T-shirts and giving out flyers for the gig. I presume you had a few hours notice of the gig. If the venue is regularly getting low audiences I'd look at the attitude of the management and then bar staff and the cleanliness of the toilets and general ambience. People have had enough of going to grotty venues with surly staff. May not be worth playing there of that's the actual problem. Plus. How does your music fit in with an Australian beat box and a hardcore metal band. That's just the wrong combination on my mind, it's not going to attract anyone for a whole evening.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1473001460' post='3125908'] I suspect you're right, which is why it's all about the music for me and not about the business. [/quote] But if you don't network and do the business type things to compete against the other highly financed businesses you just won't get noticed above all the noise. Like it or not you're in competition. Be that financial or just for an audience.

Beautiful.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1472802075' post='3124309'] On the flip side. I was watching a solo guitarist/singer in my local last night and talking to his promoter/agent/manager. He manages several originals bands and says they don't really understand the networking and business side of being in a band. He said that he can only promote them so much. With the way social media is, the best promoters are the band. They should be on Facebook and Twitter and pushing their gigs and new material and creating that buzz. His job is to get them into the venues where he has contacts and advise them on how to behave and promote themselves better. He makes money ONLY if the band makes money. That's the key thing. If the band aren't interested in making money and doing their share of the promoting. Then he doesn't make money. The net effect is he puts his energies and time into the bands making the money. Playing to free to small local audiences for fun is great but it's not the way to win friends and influence people. [/quote]

Nowadays it's not really the job of the 'promoter' (despite the name) to promote the band to the fans. Their role has changed due to social media. Why do people watch Strictly or X-Factor? It's because those shows create a massive buzz. You can't open up Facebook or turn on the TV without seeing them mentioned in some form. What are you doing to actually compete against that, how are you developing that buzz among your peers? Are you tweeting photos of rehearsals, song writing sessions, recording sessions. When people comment on your facebook page are you engaging with them and making them think they're missing out if they're not at the gig? The music business has nothing to do with music. It's all about self promotion and that's your job, not the promoter. .

I've seen them several times. Mainly at Donington and Hammersmith Odeon in the 80s. Saw them in 2011 at the O2 but it's just not the same. Live After Death is the album to listen to.

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1472846177' post='3124814'] Interesting to note that Steve plays with a very light touch, which he has described as "Tickling" the strings. With this approach, not as much stamina is required. [/quote] Indeed. Light touch. Loud amp.

By the time you are at the drink drive limit you have already experienced 7dB loss of hearing and it will be most marked in the vocal range making speech difficult to hear. Next time some drunk comes up to you at a gig and says they can't hear the vocals, they probably can't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031886/

Flea. That's ok.

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1472664882' post='3123093'] I got Guy Pratt - probably because after just three questions I got annoyed with the quiz and left it. [/quote] That's going on the famous quotes thread.

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1472598583' post='3122575'] Can one self-identify anyone else ? [/quote] I suppose not. It doesn't really add anything but the sentence didn't seem compete without the qualifying 'ourselves'. Doesn't make it bad grammar though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept

[quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1472586045' post='3122423'] Have you thought about taking a degree in Philosophy? You may ponder such questions as: does something exist if no-one is looking at it. As it happens I do have a degree in Philosophy, but if anyone asks, I don't call myself a Philosopher. [/quote] I'm more of a psychology man myself. My daughter starts A level psychology next week, I'm hoping to steal some of her books. But the whole thread is a philosophical question. A musician is someone who makes music. End of discussion. What is music and are they a musician when they're not actually making music are key to the question I think. And yes. I think it's been proved that things are just a collection of electromagnetic waves. It's only when other electromagnetic waves interfere with them and then activate our visual cortex does anything actually become 'real'. Which is odd because then it's just a collection of electro-chemical impulses.

I find it funny when people are asked what they do on quiz shows. "I'm an unemployed computer programmer". No you're not. You're unemployed. It's funny how we self identify ourselves. An injured runner? No you're not a runner if you can't run, your wardrobe may be full of running clothes and trainers but you're not a runner. But do we all stop being computer programmers, runners, musicians when we are asleep at night? I suppose you only stop being an X when you actively declare you're not going to do it anymore.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1472579083' post='3122328'] Absolutely. IME if it is necessary to be able to read a chord chart, it can be taught, but people who have no idea about image generally never will, and even if they can be persuaded to dress appropriately generally look might uncomfortable in their "stage gear". Sometime it's easier not to bother with these. [/quote] I agree to a certain extent. We had a guitarist who couldn't even look smart in a suit.

As a musician/bass player, I would hope that 'must be able to read chord charts' and 'good musical communication skills' should be pretty much a given. Then it's just a matter of refining the image of the bass player you're looking for. I can't imagine someone with exactly the right image is going to be able to learn the songs ready for an audition if they can't actually play bass. I suppose it really depends on how prescriptive the image is and whether the person writing the advert is being too rigid. Does a metal band actually need players to have long hair? Isn't that a bit 80s? Maybe in an 80s hair metal tribute band it's quite important, otherwise hair is completely irrelevant. Black bass? Possibly, if that's the look, black basses aren't hard to find. Black shoes, trousers, tie and white shirt is a bit predicatable now for function bands. They were wearing that in the early 2000s and it's quite passé really. Shows a lack of imagination AFAIAC. .

I use Goldwave. https://www.goldwave.com I paid (the $15, now $45) to get the additional features. Well worth it. Of course if you want to save to MP3 you have to install the LAME encoder. But that's extremely easy and free.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1472507679' post='3121745'] Wow., I've never read anyone say that about being in a band. I suppose if you just turn up, play, get paid and go home, and you are happy with that, then good luck with it. I can now understand your being replaced comment. [/quote] I'm the same. Tell me what tunes to play. Tell me when the gig is. I'll make suggestions that sometimes get listened to but they're suggestions. I've spent too many years in too many bands where too many people have had too many opinions.

[quote name='zbd1960' timestamp='1472501909' post='3121670'] I don't get this either. Drums are inherently LOUD, neither they nor trumpets, trombones nor saxes need amplifying in small venues.... [/quote] The theory is the drummer (or brass) player can then play at comfortable volumes while the PA projects the sound at ear level rather than the drummer trying to make the sound from the bass drum travel through the front row of the audiences knees. Unfortunately, not a lot of bands understand what the PA is for.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1472415871' post='3120999'] A musician is someone who makes music. The rest is adjectives, one of these being 'a bad musician'. The tools are irrelevant, the skill set irrelevant, the methods irrelevant. The only defining characteristic is the presence of a person and the creation of music. ... [/quote] There we go. I was waiting for someone to say this. If you play music you are a musician. End of story. The real question is what is music? That's really in the ear of the beholder. I don't think you can call yourself a musician. Anyone who owns a musical instrument can make a noise with it. It's up to the audience to decide whether it's music. If they think it's music, then you are a musician. A painter paints, an artist sells his paintings.