TimR

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[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1460209349' post='3023662'] Having just bought an old trace ah250 I did an a/b 'heft test' against my 500w markbass through the same cabs. The markbass seemed 'as loud' but more focused, the trace just had more.... ...Heft! So that was worth doing. [/quote] I think the consensus is that the cabs have become more efficient and capable of handling more power. I suspect the ampeg 8x10 was used for a reason. As you add more cabs you get more volume from the power available. It's a funny thing.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460194962' post='3023394'] unfortunately, the supply of drummers being what they are, some of us less accomplished musicians can't be quite so picky, not if we want to carry on gigging anyway [/quote] Yes. My third point is a choice thing but the second point stands. The difficulty is how to get that through to them. I played for years with a drummer who was bad with volume and tempo and every gig felt like a battle. It's refreshing playing with a good drummer.

[quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1460181643' post='3023283'] ... The difference between then and now was attitude and expectation. .... People's expectations have changed - they want a major gig experience in the Dog and Duck (myself included) and we want to give it to them. [/quote] Definitely this. We used to play at parties, in people's houses! Can you believe that? A 4 piece band with drums in someone's front room. Madness recorded their first album in the front room of one of their houses. Including a piano and saxophone!

The proper way to mix for any venue is to get the vocals clear and distinct to the majority of the listeners. Then add the other instruments. It's nonsense to regulate the band volume to the kit. Drummers who can't regulate their volume to appropriate levels need drum lessons. I won't play with any 'self taught' drummers anymore.

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1460127045' post='3022866'] A particular favourite of mine (being the guy who controls our PA) is when a punter, who's been located completely out of proper earshot of the PA, tells me that our singer needs to be turned up. That's usually where the 'phantom' slider gets a nudge - (push an unused slider up a bit, 'Is that better mate?' - usually gets a thumbs up from said punter) [/quote] Ha. Yes I was the 'victim' of a DFA merchant. I told him there was no bass trough the PA. He smiled and nodded. Still no bass. I said try the solo PFA button, you have no signal. Que- embarrassed man in black tshirt running onto stage with new XLR cable and replacement DI box.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1460112932' post='3022672'] I refer my learned friend to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/282636-were-pubsmaller-venue-bands-quieter-in-the-past/page__view__findpost__p__3022207"]this earlier post[/url]. :-) [/quote] As I say. Appropriate volume. The people complaining were at the back. You turn up and the people at the front just talk louder. In that situation, you're in a very difficult place. One half of the audience want background music, the other half want a concert. In the majority of pub band cases where people have come to hear and see a band, you just won't be asked to turn it up louder than is necessary. Most modern PAs will be limited by feedback.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460111545' post='3022647'] Not last week. The SRV style guitarist had to mic up the drums (he was a dep and playing quieter than the usual drummer) because he was getting swamped by the two of us! All very silly, but as I said before, the audience loved it! [/quote] It really depends what style of music you're playing, your audience and the size of the venue. The clue is always in the word 'appropriate' volume. That's the hard thing to get across to a lot of bands. Nothing wrong with ear destroying volume in the right scenario, but as some people have said; they're staying away because it's too loud. No one has ever complained that a band has been too quiet.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1460099344' post='3022480'] I used to build PA systems in the early 70's... ...makes more sense to ditch the huge, hyper efficient speakers and carry something manageable in terms of size and weight. [/quote] Absolutely. The PA cabs we had were heavy and big. Something like 1m X 0.5m on the front and just as deep, made from pretty heavy chipboard or 3/4" ply. That was for 50w a side, but they were fairly loud.

In the mid 80s we put the vocals through the 100w H/H, into a couple of 2x12" 25W Celestion speakers. The bass amp was 100w Peavey and the guitar some kind of Marshall amp. The vocals would have been pushed to the point of feedback but would easily distort at those kinds of volumes. No one complained we were too quiet or asked us to turn down. In the late 90s we were running vocals through 1500w peavy amp and mixer but maybe running at 1/3 if that. The only person who thought we weren't loud enough was the drummer - a lover of heavy metal - playing in a function band. We actually were given a residency at a club because we were able to play "at the appropriate volume for the venue". I now use a 500w head into 2x400w cabs. It rarely goes above 3, but sounds very clean and lots of people have said how nice the band sound. Bands have gotten louder, mainly due to inexpensive power, if your audience are not down the front with you; then you're too loud.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460020318' post='3021768'] Yes, just think what he could have achieved if he hadn't been so tight and bought a P Bass instead! [/quote] Well, he did, and a Rickenbacker and a ... And whatever he plays now. The Violin bass is a testament to how we "hear with our eyes." Don't underestimate it. I played a pointy headstock 80s Chavel for years. Until I started playing functions, it just looked and felt wrong, sounded fine though. It still sounds great and I'd still play it if my new (slightly more expensive) bass wasn't better (subjectively speaking )

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1460010065' post='3021661'] For those of us who play functions or pubs and clubs , I see buying decent gear as no different to the guys my age who buy top of the range golf clubs or sports cars/bikes. Personally I'm happy with fairly standard classic basses , but I use multi amp which cost a lot just to play 50th birthday functions in golf clubs. Im not into golf, sports cars or anything else that requires purchasing equipment , and my bass playing just about almost pays for itself (if you don't factor in time) [/quote] That's a fairly good analagy. I think as you get better you begin to be limited by the club/bike/bass. However, there are guys who cycle and spend 000s on the lightest carbon frames but would be far better off losing 3stone and working on their fat burning.

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1459949719' post='3021158'] How many high performance motorcycles do you see where the tyres show no sign of being used in corners? When I think what we take for granted these days as being available, let alone affordable. I'm not sure it's fully appreciated just how well off we all are. [/quote] Quite. Probably about the same number as 4x4s in cities that think driving up a curb is going off-road. I don't really care what people spend on their basses, what does amuse me is the amount of care they give them. To me a bass is an instrument to be played and used. It will pick up damage. All is good as long as the guy with his diamond encrusted unicorn hair bass doesn't get upset when a punter spills beer down it.

[quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1459932176' post='3020877'] Indeed, the conspiracy has been going on for decades. For interest, did you know the 1 and 2 inputs on most Bassman amps from back in the day are different for a passive bass, a matter of different loading ? Input 1 is true high impedance, 2 is a step toward the sort of lower impedance inputs on modern amps devised for active inputs. 2 has somewhat lower impedance than 1, and the inputs can have subtle tonal differences with passive basses ? Both Bass and Normal Channels are like this, BTW. LD [/quote] Yes. The link I posted explains the way the impedance affects the frequency. Or rather that frequency and impedance are inexorably linked.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1459768066' post='3019303'] Yeah, i meant it has the effect of adding a pad. [/quote] Adding a Pad is more like turning down the gain. If the impedances are wrong it still won't fix the problem. Some interesting reading: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may13/articles/using-di-boxes.htm

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1459757512' post='3019151'] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]We dont know if it was clipping or just not a good tone, but if it was clipping im at a loss to figure out how the passive input was fine but the active (assuming its a pad) wasnt.[/font] [/quote] It's not a pad, they're expecting different impedances. As I wrote above. Active basses have low output impedance across all frequencies, but passive basses will have differing impedances depending on the pickups and frequencies.

They used to be high and low impedance, referring to different types of microphones. Low would be expecting an input with about 150ohms and hi would expect about 15kohms. Active basses have buffered inputs and present a low impedance to the amp and while it doesn't really matter whether you plug them into the high or the low, it can have an effect on the high frequencies.

Active only refers to the tone controls. The output of an active bass should be no different to that of a passive.

Maybe we should give out programmes at the front door then. In every branch of entertainment the performers get a credit for the part they play. Why not the members of the band? I even get thanked for running the sound in AmDram productions. What is wrong with saying the guy playing bass for you all night is called Tim? They don't need my resume or CV.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1459332726' post='3015468'] can't see the point , that's not good, does someone introduce you over the PA at the same time? it has happened to us but only in a shambolic way, (by accident) [/quote] Depends on the setting. If it's a big show and part of it, I'd guess it's great. If it's in front of one man and his dog in a pub, it could have the opposite effect. Unless it's done ironically with humour.

A lot of this must be driven by the brewery. The pub we play has a huge widescreen on the wall behind the band. It's switched off when we play. However, it's a well known music pub and always has been. When we arrive to set up, the TV is on but absolutely no one is ever watching it. The brewery stopped the music budget, added the TV, put a new landlord in, once the takings dropped they then started looking at selling to developers. We lobbied the new landlord, the music got put back on, the pub is now thriving. There is an element of people, music lovers, who will go out if there's football on the TV. When the Euros were on, I actively sought out music pubs to get away from the footie. I think these pubs are trying to cater for too many different people and no pleasing anyone. Put on a good band, serve good beer, clean toilets, good food. Ditch the TV and create a decent environment. People will come.

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1459197916' post='3014418'] Nailed as usual by dood. Maybe we need to go back to promoting events on our own terms and avoiding the trade. [/quote] If you are a good band you can avoid the bad venues. It's horses for courses.

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1459190694' post='3014315'] Mega cringe. I did a pub gig once with a wicked drummer, who has played many tours with a world famous artist, who folded his arms and sat there in silent protest when he got his 'solo'. It was all very playful and done in jest, and the crowd enjoyed it more than they would have a drum solo most probably! [/quote] As I say. It's all about entertainment. It's about selling yourself as a band. It might suit your band and your audience, it might not. Ultimately it's down to the frontman to manage how you sell yourselves. Once the show starts, you're in his hands and you have to follow his lead.

That's the whole point of doing pub gigs verses function gigs. Either party can pull out at a moments notice. It's why the pay is so low and the terms so loose. Easy gigs, no pressure.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1459063682' post='3013164'] Watch the vid together. Each member assessing themselves first before doing others. Be harsh on yourself so singer doesn't go first and doesn't get the chance to claim he's awesome and needs no improvement. And I have to say it - no singer gets away without knowing the words. Ever. [/quote] Yes. I think I need to watch the video, but it's been commented on by audience members. Especially the words thing. Which he seems to have taken on board. Small steps.