TimR

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453556823' post='2960514'] On these lines... If someone asks you to learn the set for a gig...you've got the gig. None of this stand-by stuff.... they pay you because they booked you. If the bass player makes it back from holiday in time and they want him to do the gig, that is ok..but they still pay you because you've put the time in and you have held the date. [/quote] This is the difference between proffesional and semi-pro players. As a semi-pro player I think I would have difficulty in getting money from someone in that scenario. I think a pro would have a much easier time citing lost revenue. They'd also probably make that clear from the outset. It's certainly something I'll make clearer to anyone who asks me to play in future.

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1453543333' post='2960382'] I say , ask him how much he would pay for five plumbers to come out on a Saturday night! People don't seem to realise the work involved, plus the personal expense. Functions are notoriously hard to play especially as some folk feel you are their captive band and you have to do their bidding without argument. 400 quid sounds reasonable to me, but if you charge 200 for a pub, then maybe go for 250-300 [/quote] Depends what you're getting in return. I've fixed loads of my friends electrics for free. The whole payment thing hinges on how much inconvinience you're going through so that someone else can enjoy themselves. Pub gigs? If you enjoy playing, you turn up, people enjoy it, there's a lot of benefit in kind going on where there's little or no real financial cost. Although today, I've had to go to work at last minute notice, tonight I'm playing a gig. I'll earn all night what I earned just driving into work, before I have even had to use my brain. There's no way a pub could pay me my Saturday day rates. However, tonight's gig has meant I'm a bit more stressed doing the job I get paid for. I was concious that I could possibly be there all day and not make the gig! Now if I was doing a wedding gig, there's no way I could have done my day job and would have lost A LOT of money doing it for mates rates. One of the reasons I don't do weddings. Too many close calls. Getting up at 6am, getting stuck at work and then rushing to a gig and getting into bed at 3am. That's not bragging I don't think I'm taking money from professional musicians either.

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1453551113' post='2960447'] No idea how it works with theft, but if you buy a car for example, and it turns out to be stolen, it can be taken from you even if you bought it in good faith. Wouldn't that apply to everything or just cars, or am i also wrong about the car getting repossessed? I really do think that all these cash converter type shops area the biggest fences in Britain [/quote] It works with everything. But as a wrote earlier there's a burden of proof and it depends on how much something is worth and whether you're going to go chasing after something that's very hard to find. All linked together. With a car that's all pretty easy. With the shops I'd hope they have a policy of no questions asked refund. Otherwise they'll just be finding themselves in court all day.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1453472828' post='2959805'] I wonder if professional golfers 'get' this concept..? All that expertise and tuition fees, the cost of your clubs and gloves, the humping to and from the course, the precious time away from family and friends... Who'd do all that for free, and sometimes even in the rain (well, light drizzle, at least...)..? Must be daft, surely..? [/quote] It depends what service you're providing as a hobby golfer. Are you playing against people you wouldn't normally chose to socialise with? Are people coming to watch you play and getting upset when you don't win? Are people buying clubs based on what you're using? Are you getting up at 8:00am every morning to teach someone you don't know and possibly don't like? Are you driving hundreds of miles to play in a tournament while all your mates are off on a weekend jolly somewhere else? There's a point at which your services become more valuable to someone else than the enjoyment you're getting from playing.

Dealing with people and money is always a PITA. I can see why lots of people will do pub gigs for £80 and that's it. And I can see why some will only join established acts that don't have to do the pub gigs and suffer the arguments about being "Better than that". I'm in two camps. I'm happy to do pub gigs and I'm happy to be in a function band. I'm not sure I'm happy to be in a function band that has to do low paid gigs to get a name going. It always ends in arguments. .

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453464607' post='2959697'] I'm not so sure, how far back is the buyer obliged to go? I've just bought a new pa from an online shop, I don't know where they have got it from. Under No circumstance should the shop pass on any buyers info to the kid, his mom or the dad so the only people that could request that would be the police who I can't see getting involved at all. If the kid swore his dad gave it him and his dad swore he didn't that's the end of the whole debacle legally. [/quote] That's a lot of "if"s. The buyer doesn't have to go back at all to check. He's made a purchase in good faith. The shop has been notified that the bass may be stolen. It's their remit to now contact the person they sold it to and find out if try can get it back or pass on details to the police. They've done that and fulfilled their obligation. However, technically the bass hasn't been stolen in this case. It's all about what morally is right here. .

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1453446589' post='2959519'] How much does the nice lady earn? [/quote] As it's the US it'll be a fixed %age. In the UK it would be the guitarist's girlfriend. Her payment is being able to keep an eye on him while he is at gigs.

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453463404' post='2959685'] I wouldn't have involved with this family debate and kept the bass, what would have happened if the bass had been purchased with cash in the shop? [/quote] But it wasn't and so he is. This is similar to 'finders keepers', where the onus is on how hard it would be to trace the original owner vs how expensive the find is. Just that it is in reverse. Pick up a fiver in the street, no one appears to be looking for it, wait a few minutes, it's yours. If you see someone drop that fiver and not realise then it's theft.

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1453452329' post='2959568'] He is not expected to fully understand the morals - doli capax starts at ten and tapers up [/quote] It's absolutely bonkers. I suspect when the dad eventually contacts a lawyer he will be laughed at quite a lot and shown the exit. Very sad really.

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1453421779' post='2959477'] Sometimes you just have to wonder what kind of world we are living in, when fathers can do this to sons. Kudos to the op for doing the right thing and good luck in your search. [/quote] Yes it's a real weird one. I assume as he's getting divorced it's more of a way at getting to the woman. Although both parents must be responsible financially for the child. Interesting court case. Isn't the dad effectively sueing himself?

Quite possibly one of the strangest stories I've ever heard. Definitely one for Jeremy Kyle.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453408799' post='2959343'] I'd say you can't dictate what some one wants to earn...if they are worth it..and if you can pay you will. We wouldn't have those players on certain gigs because we couldn't afford them..they'd certainly not set aside a date for £60... but they'll do it for that if they don't have work that night... much closer to the time, We pay min fee but everyone gets that the BIG payers do, to some extent subsidise that. [/quote] Depends how you're running a band. If you have a list of deps it's different to wanting to put out the same band to each gig.

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1453381389' post='2958924'] It would be nice to think that we (collectively) were being treated fairly though. I got stung with a wedding gig, where I got a decent enough fee, but then found out what the band got paid. Now I can understand the bandleader taking some extra, even an extra split, but this was more than that, AND we'd all contributed to the rehearsal room. [/quote] He should have paid for the rehearsal. I used to co-run a band that had a brass section. We payed everyone a flat fee regardless of what the 'band' was paid from the client. One of the brass players got upset at a wedding gig saying they should be getting more for the wedding gig than the pub and party gigs. So after a lot of huffing and puffing and flouncing we agreed an equal split at ALL gigs. She was very unhappy when we gave her £20 at the next pub gig. She was effectively "paying to play" Soon after that she would only be 'available' for weddings and functions. You can't run a band when individuals are deciding when to play based on what they get paid on a gig by gig basis. Everyone needs to be available all the time and take the highs with the lows.

"Bragging"? It's not bragging Blue. The US has a completely different culture. In the UK we have an extrrmely socialist biased system that allows people to make music for free while being fully supported by the government. They don't have to go out and 'work'. We don't even have to pay for our healthcare. Those of us that do work also 'in the main' work a 35-40 hour week. There are exceptions but we don't work anywhere near the hours I know my American friends work.

"There is a despute over the ownership of the bass." Two choices. 1. Return the bass for a full refund. 2. Tell the shop you have the bass and will hold on to it until the 'despute' is resolved and the police are free to contact you. If the police do contact you and collect the bass, don't expect a full refund without a lot of hassle. Your call.

I was in a band once where one of the singers did a mates rate for a wedding. Fast forward to a week before the gig and the lead singer and drummer 'can't make the gig', I can't remember why, it's not really important. Getting a lead singer and a drummer in to dep with a few days notice for a wedding is 'expensive'. Although probably not as expensive as getting sued for the cost of another band to take your place... We didn't do charity functions or mates rates weddings or functions again after that.

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1453298090' post='2958208'] I wouldn't have thought there was much you can do once the guy has been told how much you go out for in pubs - in his mind there isn't going to be much difference. Fault lies with the guitarist, so make him do it for free and then split the £200 one less way. [/quote] The guitarist should be offering to waive his cut anyway.

[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1453295396' post='2958160'] Our opinions differ it seems. I feel that the bassline an integral part of how the song sounds whether you realise it or not. I try and keep to that. [/quote] It's your job as a bassplayer to make the bass line work with the rest of the band. I've played in bands where the drummer has trodden all over the bass line with his right foot. You can either have a massive argument and raise the temperature of your urine, or you can use it as an opportunity to play a better bass line.

He won't get a DJ for less than £400.

Setting up at mid-day? No chance. That's not a pub rate gig. Tell them you'll see them at 7pm with your gear.

[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1453292036' post='2958097'] What if all band members did [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]something that approximates?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I agree that auditions are different to rehearsals though, but the approach to learning songs should be the same. Learn the songs, before you get in the audition/rehearsal room.[/font][/color] [/quote] You get a good sounding band? If you only have guitar, bass and drums, something has to be changed to most tunes. Practically every band will overdub a rhythm guitar during the main guitar solo. It would rule out all covers of any band with a second guitarist or keyboard player and anything with brass. I've never even heard a band play one of their own tunes live the same as it is on a record. It's a cover. That means Lyrics, melody, structure are the same. Everything else is just production. Unless the bass part is part of the melody, you can actually play whatever you like.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1453290627' post='2958076'] This guy gets it!! I'm not going to turn up to an audition with 'something that approximates'. I will have learned the material to the best of my ability and take it from there. If the band's versions turn out to be 'looser', then I'm immediately in the best position to cope with that. And I know you can't replicate the production values of a song live, that's obvious and I don't attempt it. But I do like to properly learn the notes that the bass player is playing, the correct arrangement, the feel, the groove and any other bits and pieces that make the song what it is. Missing chunks out because they're 'too hard' or doing it half-assed because 'the punters will be pissed anyway' is not an option as far as I'm concerned. [/quote] An audition is slightly different to a rehearsal. There's a difference between doing something half arsed and doing something exactly as per the original. It's music, not maths.

I know a drummer who is a London underground train driver. I wonder if it's an occupation that attracts a certain type of person.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1453283106' post='2957995'] The problem is finding other players who like to do the same. If you learn a song note-for-note and the rest of the band doesn't, your carefully-learnt bass line won't fit properly into the song. So inevitably you have to play it 'wrong' to make it work, which boils my piss and is the reason I generally don't like playing in covers bands. [/quote] Relax a bit over this. Learn something that approximates and turn up to the rehearsal with an open mind. Quite often you'll never replicate the original due to loads of limitations (mainly most pop is heavily over-produced). It's a cover not a facsimile.

The drummer will be listening. Or at least he should be. If he isn't: walk.