TimR

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445249919' post='2889860'] With respect I think you may be quoting me out of context (and in the process have misinterpreted what I wrote). Quick summary: Pythagorean tuning gives a series of harmonically pure notes, but eventually falls foul of the Pythagorean comma. If you stick to the notes in the diatonic (major) scale the problem doesn't arise (unless you try to get too cute with the harmonies of course...). The problems start when you try to transpose or modulate to a different key (not a problem for early musicians - much less the Pythagoreans - as they didn't really do harmonies - much less modulation - in the way we think of them). Equal Temperament tuning sets up the notes so as to be harmonically precisely equidistant from each other (you may recall the narrator in the video talking about the 12th root of 2 - personally I'd have preferred that he expand on that idea to show how the Equal Temperament scale is constructed, but he didn't so you'll have to make do with my explanation! ). I went into some detail as to how this is done in the articles so if it's all the same to you I won't regurgitate it en masse here. However - and this is the important bit - in order to create a scale in this way one has to give up most of the harmonically pure ratios that would come from the Pythagorean tuning method. In harmonic terms it's a compromise, so that (to put the text you quote [i][b]into[/b][/i] context) the notes are a little way of their Pythagorean equivalents but are close enough so we can live with it. Here's a quick example: Take concert A at 440Hz (yes, I know not everybody uses 440Hz...). In Pythagorean tuning the fifth above (E) it is at 440 x 1.5 = [u]660Hz[/u] This is the harmonically pure perfect fifth. In Equal Temperament tuning E is the 7th note of the Chromatic scale starting at A and is therefore 2[sup](7/12)[/sup] x 440 = 1.4983 x 440 = [u]659.2551Hz[/u] (Results correct to 4 d.p.) As I said, slightly off the pure pitch but close enough for people to not notice. If you pick any pair of notes from the Equal Temperament system that are a perfect fifth apart, the higher not will [i][b]always[/b][/i] be 1.4983... x the pitch of the lower. That's how the system works. (Please don't quibble this point - the Maths is correct, o.k.?). The pitch relationship, not the actual pitch values, is the determining factor. Looked at another way, Pythagorean tuning gives you a whole load of harmonically pure but mutually incompatible scales: Equal Temperament gives you a single, homogeneous scale that goes to the limits of human hearing in both directions. The genius is that we can move around the scale pretty much anywhere we choose and be confident that the pitch relationships are always [i][b]exactly[/b][/i] the same. As such, transposition is a simple matter of choosing your new starting point and away you go: simples! The downside is that the notes are a tiny bit off-pitch in any given key in any given register. But we can live with it... [/quote] That's exactly what I said.

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1445185195' post='2889395'] Transposing in Equal Temperament is a doddle - it's to do with... Actually, and at the risk of sounding a bit patronising, a lot of this stuff really will make more sense if people take the time to read my articles on the subject. Essential Tension linked it a while ago but here it is again: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/59011-ancient-greek-music/"]http://basschat.co.u...nt-greek-music/[/url] The video is very good by the way - it skirts over one or two issues a bit too easily for my liking, and the narrator's tone is a bit patronising, but apart from that it goes through it very nicely (and, annoyingly, is more interesting than reading through my articles as well... ) [/quote] It may well be a doddle but in your article that you link to you explain that you sacrifice pure tones and all notes become a compromise that is close enough for us to live with. What happens is that in some keys the perfect 3/2 ratio is closer than in other keys. The do sound slightly different. In a C major chord the ratio for the 5th is not as close as the ratio in an A major chord. It's subtle and we can hear it, it doesn't sound wrong, but it does sound different.

West Side is great. I had to explain the rhythm in 'I Feel Pretty' to the singers once. Ooof!

I'll confess to leaving the drum side one in while having the bass one out.

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1445152319' post='2889060'] Those who have studied these things properly will cringe at this as is is very much a paraphrase rather than an academic treatise (it annoys the heck out of my nephew who studied music at Goldsmiths). But for the average muso you could do worse than the explanation of Pythagorean theory and tempering in scales in Howard Goodall's Big Bangs. A nicely simplified and populist explanation... http://youtu.be/41g2fSYZ4Sc Apologies to those who have looked at this properly... [/quote] I saw this a long time ago and take it as a perfect explanation why transposing from one key to another has to be carefully done. Maybe I like it over simplified.

Elacin ER20s. About £10 from Amazon. Just reduce the volume across all frequencies. They don't let 'more' high frequency through. It's just that foam one let less high frequency through so compared with them they sound natural.

Who reads the comments? You'd be better off reading the daily mail or the comments on the BBC News website. Either that or join a conversation with me in off topic.

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1445023023' post='2888304'] At the risk of opening up another avenue.... O played briefly with a function band whose drummer had a state of the art electric kit and he knew how to use it. Every song was as the record whether it was hand claps, 80s sounding bass drum and snare, the works. I hadn't appreciated how much production and dubbing had happened on drum tracks until that band. The sound was magical. [/quote] I'd probably have to hear it but to me the idea already sounds too clinical.

The thought of adjusting my pots mid gig is too frightening. I'll leave it to the pros.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1445021118' post='2888290'] Give it a try...you might enjoy it... [/quote] All the bass players I've met from busy covers bands have dabbled in FX. All the FX are now gathering dust. And I appreciate technology has moved on but I played with a guy on keys in the 80s who had a Korg M1 with sequences and sample module along with some additional sounds loaded into the M1. The whole lot went tits up one gig and he had to ditch the sampled sounds, the programmed drum patterns and factory reset the Korg. We played the whole gig using Hammond, Strings or piano sound along with some basic 4:4 two bar drum parts he composed during the first two bars of each song. A very amusing night. .

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444993368' post='2887928'] Noooo, that's why I was so surprised about the reaction - I originally said Yep, on the bass I'll hoick the treble and scoop the mids a bit (or just use both pickups), or cut the treble, etc, etc, and just play it differently with me hands... The keyboards are a different thing entirely - he does like to play around, mostly because he can, and it justifies him having the Mac onstage... [/quote] As long as he's got the playing ability and can change seamlessly for each tune that's all well and good. My comment about trying too hard comes from seeing too many bands that are more about getting the authentic sound and who then get the basics horribly wrong. Think we had a thread about all the gear and no idea.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444988661' post='2887853'] Which is exactly what I was saying...for the iconic stuff...I never touch the amp, but I have EQ on the bass...it's not hard... Apparently that approach is amusing. [/quote] Ahh. The impression I got was you have spent time trying to emulate a Marcus Miller tone, whereas you're really just talking about turning up the treble to get a generic slap sound. Think it was clouded when you implied the keyboard player downloaded different samples for each tune.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1444981607' post='2887759'] Happy to be told otherwise, but that's not how I read it. [/quote] Me too. But that's all in the fingers. I don't have time between numbers to be fiddling with tone controls and wondering whether the bass is still going to be balanced with the rest of the band. As Bilbo says, these are playing subtleties that should occur 'naturally' when you're playing. .

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444932314' post='2887498'] Yep, the actor thing's a good analogy: I think if you turned up on a huge budget shoot and said "I see from the script it's a gritty tale of life in the Mississippi Bayou , but I only do Welsh. I sound like me whatever I try, I'm not Matthew McConnaheyheyhey, you know. And besides, no-one'll notice." you'd be, like our least favourite internet drummer, at the wrong gig... [/quote] I think maybe we're at cross purposes here. It's the difference between doing a welsh accent for a Tom Jones set or doing an impression of Tom Jones, or actually just singing the song naturally. Is prefer it naturally thanks. If I wanted a bad impression I'd go to a cabaret evening to see a Tom Jones impersonator, if I wanted Tom Jones I'd go to a Tom Jones gig or get a DJ. It's an age old debate. When I hear a band I want to hear something different, not someone making arbitrary descisions on which parts they're going to copy exactly note for note and timbre for timbre and which bits they're going to busk. The singer doesn't do impressions. The drummer doesn't swap kits.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444932459' post='2887501'] So you'd turn to a friend in the audience at a function gig and say "It's not very...natural, is it?" [/quote] Yes. I would and have done.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444914928' post='2887280'] Trying too hard? Really? I've never had any feedback from the function band which said "We hired them for our function, they were great, but they sounded like they were trying too hard." The singers don't do impressions, that pretty much wouldn't be possible given the range of music we play, but they put a lot of effort into fronting the band, which is more important. [/quote] Yes. It's the equivalent of actors over-acting. You can't quite put your finger on it but it's not a natural thing.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444910390' post='2887208'] Wow. I must remember that excuse for the next time I can't be bothered learning a line... "I know I'm only playing the roots...who do you think I am? Bob Babbitt? No-one's going to notice..." For the record, when we play a song, we make sure the keys sound as like the original as possible, and they do...it's all done with computers nowadays, you know, and it's not very hard... We had a dep guitarist who just used the same sound for all the songs, same for Guns and Roses as for a Johnny Cash song. It sounded crap. We spoke to him about it, and although to his credit he didn't try and laugh it off or attempt to assume any sort of moral high ground about it, he didn't get a second call. And yeah, I do sound like me most of the time, but when I dial in a Marcus sound and slap Never Too Much, or mute it down and play root fifths for a country song, I don't sound like me. How close I sound to Marcus, for example, is open to debate, but it's different and it's closer than sounding like me. Maybe my standards are too high. [/quote] The problem is that often you can sound like you're trying too hard. Does your singer do impressions?

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1444908528' post='2887177'] We operate an all black dress code. Which seemed to baffle our 2nd guitarist for the whole of our 2 years together. He moved to black shirt and jeans pretty quickly, but we never managed to get him out of his brown shoes!!! [/quote] I bet he used white 4-gang extension leads as well.

I did a three hour gig for one band. The communication should have sounded alarm bells. I had been recommended by another player who told me it would be well within my capabilities. All standards. I was given a number to call, I tried it every other day for the two weeks leading up to the gig. Finally got through to the guy on the Monday and asked if he had a set list. Don't worry, it's all the usual numbers, the address is ..., wear a plain bright coloured shirt and black trousers and shoes. See you there. Bye. I turned up, was introduced to the guys and told to watch the rhythm guitarists hands for the changes, don't play anything flash, here's your money. Standards? Seriously, I don't think I had heard 90% of the set before let alone played it. Watch the guitarists hands? From the back of the stage? A very tough gig.

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1444906080' post='2887129'] That 5 isn't all for one band, I play in up to 5/6 projects, 5 a year is for all projects, so an average of 1 clash that cannot be gotten around. [/quote] That's not 'busy' by any stretch of the imagination.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1444905447' post='2887121'] We wouldn't expect any dep we use to get all leathered up Terrortone style but when some of them can even follow a simple dress suggestion of "wear something black, no band T-shirts, no prominent brand logos, no trainers" it does make you wonder. [/quote] I played in a function band for years and even our regular guitarist couldn't remember what to wear.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1444862737' post='2886900'] No one is indispensable. Not even Peter Gabriel, Roger Waters or Eric Clapton. [/quote] I'm fairly sure they didn't get deps in for them to cover gigs they couldn't do.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1444856238' post='2886815'] What about bands that have a "Star", a unique front that people are specifically coming to see? Personally, my position for now is, you can't dep a "Star" Blue [/quote] You can't dep anyone in an originals band. Or rather, you can, but there has to be a solid and pressing reason to do so. The two bands I depped for 1) didn't have a bass player and were looking for a replacement for the player that left. 2) bass player was off long term sick. I'm sure there could be other specific cases but they'd have to be pretty special reasons. I think if you're one of those bands looking to promote the band as an entity, there's not any room to be doing gigs that all the members haven't committed to because it can quickly breed resentment.

That doesn't seem right to me. If you've got a tour with spaces you want filled, then shouldn't you audition someone properly and tell them they're being auditioned? If that audition process includes playing in a function band then you should be preparing them so that they can show you what they can do. You're wasting everyone's time by not giving out enough information.

I've never taken the title 'Jazzer' to mean someone who plays jazz, more of a term to describe someone who busks or improvises around the tune.