TimR

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441176823' post='2856590'] I would rather not have to go over this stale old topic yet again, with the same participants marking out the same territory and hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with it, but hey you cant always get what you want....wait, didn't someone already say that? [/quote] It's not off topic. The OP is feeling pressured into doing a gig for free. Others have said that's borderline exploitation. If you'd rather not go over why this is happening then either don't read threads that have a financial basis or ask a Mod to ban talking about money. I gave a single one line answer. .

Quite. Just maintain a professional attitude. It's not your fault that the original bass player isn't available. Which is where the real problem lies.

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441128797' post='2856307'] And I was just trying to point out, as I did in an earlier post, that this topic (bands playing for little or no money, festivals, charity gigs yadder yadder) is still running in another recent thread so do we have to do it all again. The OP's original point was that even if the band wanted to do the non-paying festival type gig should he, as a dep, still get paid. The general feeling seems to be that the answer is yes unless he chooses to waive his fee, which is his choice not theirs. The wider point about free, charity, festivals etc etc is not relevant as he, as a dep, has no part in the band's decision to take the gig unpaid - he should just be another expense like travel etc. for the band to consider - and just drags the topic down a very well worn road. If the cost of having him as a dep causes them to reconsider, or ask him to play for free as otherwise they can't (don't wan to) afford to do it, it's his decision what to do. Do it for expenses (fuel etc.), do it for free, or insist on his regular gig rate that they usually pay him. Not an easy one, but his decision none the less. [/quote] I would rather you had directed your comments to the person who bought the subject up. I was only answering his question. Thanks.

I was only trying to answer the question.

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1441110496' post='2856082'] Here we go again...... [/quote] Sorry, it's actually because the cost of musical equipment and the cost of living have dropped so much that we are able to pass the substantial savings on to the customer.

And why not. They've had an actor.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1441027266' post='2855433'] Just seen someone post my thoughts Basically, yes, you've set a precendent as a dep by playing so many freebs, that they now expect it. As a dep, you are not part of the band, so disregard you play more gigs than their regular bassist. Unless you put your foot down, ( ah 1 ah 2 ah 3 and a 4 ) it will go on as they've got it sweet. While you keep accepting freebie gigs, they'll keep on not paying you. They're not daft are they ? Slight off topic To me, and i know this is the same for all musos, i'm wondering why gig money hasn't gone up with inflation. Everything has increased, yet gig money is either worse, or at best the same as 25 years back or more I know in '91 our band was getting roughly £250 per gig for pub work, and clubs paid a bit more. I'm sure it was at that level before then, and its still that way now [/quote] Because too many people are prepared to work for free.

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1441018491' post='2855302'] Sterling SUB Ray 4 - active beast. The problem is with this bass. I also have a Squier VM Precision PJ, which is passive and doesn't give the same problems. [/quote] Audition with the PJ then when you get the gig and have a couple of practices under your belt tell them you want to try out the Sterling to see what it's like.

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1440973669' post='2855095'] How am I ever going to get through an audition if my playing is littered with squeeeeeeeekrattlehoooooooo, though? [/quote] It won't be. The ringing of the snare and high hat will mask most of the percussive noises. What will be harder for you to accept is having to change all your tone settings to fit with the guitar and bass drum. So more than likely the nice clear tone you're getting in your bedroom will sound wrong and the string noises will be the least of your concerns.

I was paid and put up in a hotel for one dep gig I did. This is precisely why I say (see the other thread) bands should think very carefully about committing to low paid or free gigs. It really depends on what other plans you would have for the day and whether they'll give you a lift there.

Well, the boy has floppy hair if it helps.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1440871642' post='2854490'] Not for much longer though. The Grim Reaper crooks his spectral, bony finger for the older generation and today's lazy, self-entitled, narcissistic floppy-haired youngsters are mostly too busy getting tattooed and drinking alcopops and indignantly protesting about the [i]desperate[/i] [i]unfairness[/i] of modern life to identify music as anything but a cheap, disposable personal soundtrack. ... [/quote] We were listening to the car radio the other day. On one of those radio stations for old people - Radio 2. My 15yo daughter remarked that she knew the tune being played, it was really old, but she liked it. The tune? George Michael - Careless Wisper. I believe one of his influences was Freddie Mercury. Anyway. My point? I can't remember now. Oh yes. My kids have been trained never to say "It's not fair." So your observation is a fairly general one.

It was my impression that the brewery pays the entertainment budget.

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1440848153' post='2854304'] Couldn't agree more, which is precisely why I'm not worried about the keeping time app. Music is feel, not manufactured ! Well some of it is manufactured, but the less said about that, the better! [/quote] Micro timing is different to keeping time. But then we had this conversation before didn't we

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1440772063' post='2853746'] I think that at some time it will be repeated, but perhaps not with music. Or not with music as we know it. [/quote] What like digital watches or PCs or mobile phones or the Internet or Facebook or something?

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440772198' post='2853748'] and that is where my patience would run very thin... I'm happy for an equal split...IF all things are equal, but in the real world, they generally aren't. If we use a truly exceptional drummer..and sometimes we do... we might have to pay for the 'priveledge' and pay petrol and exes over and above but we make a point that he will not earn more over a year per gig that the rest of us core members, That means for big payers, he is still on a wage...but you can see how it can get tricky etc etc .. Basically we pay him what he asks and can afford with in reasonable limits...but that is the price you get for a 'world class player'.. [/quote] And this is where I got quite badly burned doing a wedding gig at mates rates in a past band. The drummer and singer pulled out a few days before and we had to get in deps. Who wanted a premium. The fee of £500 was £200 each and then £25 each for the rest of us. For what was 12 hours out of the house and £20 in fuel. If the keys player had dropped out we'd have been seriously out of pocket.

It really depends on the gig. They schedule is quite big. Covers travel over a certain time and distance and waiting time and rehearsal and performance rates.

Lots of cash exchanging hands. No employment contracts. No tax. I'm not sure minimum wage or union involvement is very high on the list.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1440767365' post='2853679'] Three, if you count ****. And of course ****, **** and ****. So that's six. [/quote] I think you'll find that's from the Sex Pistols thread where we discussed John Lydon's cover of John Lennon's Imagine.

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1440763313' post='2853620'] I'd say that's the secret of good production and mixing. The secret of good playing is to play good, then you don't need things to be masked. I fully understand the playing with a band and getting a good overall feel and a few things will be pushed and pulled, but that was just sloppy. Check this, here's JPJ. It's with the band there is the odd push/pull but not sloppy. Good playing! [url="https://youtu.be/3ANwQW8aspI"]http://youtu.be/3ANwQW8aspI[/url] [/quote] The masking isn't done in production. It's done while you are playing. If you can't hear noises you are making while you are playing then neither can your audience. In fact if you can't hear them how do you eliminate them? We're talking about rock music here, not a solo classical guitar performance. It's only when you micro analyse each stroke that you'll ever hear it. That's why as we progress through the digital age recordings are sounding more and more sterile and lifeless.

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1440764753' post='2853638'] Completely agree, and I would only use them for work which was suitable for a standard screwdriver, and not rely at all on the insulation. I'm thinking more of handles off cabs and reluctant battery covers on pedals etc. [/quote] Yes, I thought that too after I had posted and did a Google. Don't expect them to handle anything that requires a bit of pressure without rounding off or twisting.

Well I'm confused. Is it no wonder that people who weren't there don't get it. I certainly don't think it's even possible to explain it. And I still have no idea why it's a curse.

I'd be very wary of tools that are that cheap. 1000v VDE. You're trusting your life on a set of £2.99 screwdrivers. They may well be genuine and sourced properly but I'd want to have a good look at where they're made. There have been a spate of fires and people dying from fake iPhone charges from EBay - manufactured in China.

If nothing this thread has opened my eyes to the fact that the Beatles invented a whole bunch of chords that just were not around before 1965. How much of this was due to the electric guitar and the mechanics of finding 6 note chords that maybe no one had applied is another question. It would be interesting to listen critically to some Pink Floyd and Beatles side to side on timelines to see how much crossover there is. Because I still find it very hard to believe that just one group can be singlehandedly responsible for the '60s. .

[quote name='Iain' timestamp='1440757945' post='2853530'] That's basically it - the pub needs to make money and the bands need enough for them to feel valued. For me it's a hobby - if it covers fuel and strings that's fine, anything beyond that is a bonus. [/quote] This is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint for me. But only with pubs and only on a standard Saturday where if your singer decides to bail on Saturday lunchtime due to a hangover, the pub just doesn't get live music that night. There are a hundred reasons why you might have to drop out at the last minute. If you are contracted to provide entertainment for a special event you'd better have a very good backup plan - preferably one that involves getting in a last minute band - for free (or certainly at no cost to the client!)