TimR

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440678297' post='2852884'] I can't I'm playing a free gig that night.... [/quote] Looking at my band mates' wives and girlfriends, I may take the free gig option as well! .

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1440676235' post='2852864'] I was born a few months too late to actually be defined as a Baby-Boomer, but I'm pretty sure you won't find a single one who has ever asked their parents to stop going on about the war -- we/they know that it was rather more important than four poorly-coiffed Scousers emerging from a 707. BTW, we now have two almost identical Beatles-based threads. so I'm closing the other one. [/quote] The ones involved in the war didn't talk about it. But I take the point about the Beatles evangelism. Some people are the same about Fender basses. And with all Evangelism, the more you go on about something the less people will listen.

The Howard Goodall video is a very interesting one. There are things that the Beatles did with the music around them that was more than just be influenced. The changed the game, the whole way music was constructed. New ways of harmonising chordal work etc. If you've ever played any Elton John songs and understood the chord changes then that's something that just wasn't around before the Beatles. It's very clever and I'm very surprised that 4 poor lads from Liverpool with no formal music qualification or education could have done that. Hence the George Martin link. Although Paul and John may well have just bought all their influences into a melting pot and played what they did without knowing why. According to the video there was a clear evolution of their songs.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440665606' post='2852749'] I very much doubt there is a queue of people wanting to teach music in a failing comprehensive school for free in their spare time... [/quote] Indeed. Who would be a musician? Saying you'd love to be a musician and play to live audiences all the time is like saying you'd love to be a plumber driving a van around, changing tap washers, drinking tea and chatting to customers all day.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440663754' post='2852713'] I think a very small percentage of people enjoy their jobs. More likely is that most people hate their jobs but put up with them because they get paid enough to enjoy their hobbies outside of work... like playing live music. [/quote] The link posted suggested. 13% engaged, 24% disengaged which leaves 63% of people who are fairly indifferent. There's lots of psychology involved but a job is a job and no job remains interesting forever. The actual physical process of what people do is irrelevant the real secret is whether the people doing the job feel valued and productive. Live music is a good example because you get positive feedback from human beings. Try being a trombone player in a recording orchestra, or a comprehensive school teacher at a failing school. That'll test your patience of whether being a musician is fun.

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1440631272' post='2852616'] [color=#222222]Hardly the same. We same to be missing a point here in that people playing in a band do it because they like playing in a band and making noise etc.[/color] [color=#222222]Can't remember the last time I heard a bartender or a bouncer saying, that they really enjoy it and would do it as a hobby.[/color] [/quote] There are plenty of Pub Landlords who love doing their job and are passionate about live music. Funnily enough they're the ones who pay you and even give you a bonus if they've had a good night.

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1440631538' post='2852619'] [color=#222222]Do you think there are forums for bar tenders or bouncers with threads like:[/color] [color=#222222] [/color] [color=#222222]NBD: Just bought a new sky blue cotton top I think I’ll give it a debut tonight at the Fox and Hounds.[/color] [color=#222222]Or[/color] [color=#222222]FS: Black bomber jacket, small amount of blood stains on left sleeves[/color] [color=#222222] [/color] [color=#222222]Disclaimer: I’m not saying that bar tenders are all female, or that bouncers get into a lot of bloody situations.[/color] [/quote] You would be surprised. There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes. It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job.

She Loves You is essentially an Irish Sea Shanty set to Little Richard rock line. Paul talks about the Beatles' influences: http://youtu.be/2xjo1eEgeew .

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1440616523' post='2852485'] Set up your amp next to them, plug in your bass and then go and stand behind a screen or in the next room and play. See how they like it [/quote] See if it rattles their fillings loose.

That's not including travel time!

Someone pointed out that all the Glastonbury performers were paid the same as it was all for charity too. Might explain why Kanye West couldn't afford a backing band.

A number of my friends are university professors, head masters, teachers, and members of leadership teams. They live in a strange world called academia. Their Facebook posts make my eyes itch.

I think you have to take them on their merits. At a festival, you arrive with your bass in a gig bag, climb on stage, plug into the backline and play for 45mins. Then wander around the festival take in the atmos and have a few beers. For a NYE gig you have to turn up at a specified time hours before the punters, take an hour to set up, hang around until start time, play 3hours of music to 1am, an hour to pack down and then even if it's only 30mins away you'll not be in bed until 3am. The next day (a bank holiday) will not start until 10 or 11am.

A hobby is something I do in my spare time when I want to do it and how I want to do it. As soon as someone specifies what, when and how then I'm working for them.

I've been in negotiations for NYE for bands and not once has the venue wanted the band to play for free. If the only gig you're being asked to do is a gig for free then that does indicate how much your band is worth and what sort of gig you'll be doing. If the pub is selling tickets then you should be getting some of that money. No band, no NYE party. NYE you should have at least two or three enquiries. These are from people who want 'your' band because they know you do a good job. Remember you didn't approach him, he approached you. He's the one who wants a band.

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1440583843' post='2852087'] I'm currently training someone to do my day job for 10% of what I get paid so I can be made redundant. That's called "outsourcing to India". Fortunately that's not likely to be an issue for bands for a while yet. PS. And I feel exactly how you'd expect me to feel, but it wouldn't get through the expletives filter. [/quote] Are people still outsourcing to India? Have they learned nothing. In 18months they'll be asking you to go back for 10% more.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440582379' post='2852071'] There are many many 10 to a room guys on the sites in London but they are all doing manual jobs, jobs where the required skill set is being physically able to carry stuff around and nothing more, they are cheaper than a brittish worker with the same skills who will not live in the same conditions. I have a skilled job which has taken years to learn. I can't just be replaced by a random bloke in the street... If it was possible to replace me for less they would. Instantly. [/quote] I think you have just proved my argument.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440582802' post='2852075'] but if you're a semi pro playing covers in a pub you get a payment, if you're good enough to draw a big crowd the pub will pay you more because you've justified the extra cost, if you're playing in an originals band, mid week to about 5 people you won't get anything, in other words you get paid what you're worth. I play in a punk covers band which I thoroughly enjoy, but to earn a living I would have to play in a, say, function band, all different styles, but I'm not good enough for that, so I don't expect to make a living from music [/quote] I would argue that if you've been asked to play a NYEs gig, you are worth considerably more than free beer.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440581301' post='2852060'] I would say good luck to them... I work in construction and they pay me the minimum they possibly can to get someone with the skills they need to complete the contract. I get a penny an hour more than someone who can't do my job. No-one would do my job for less because it is sh*t ... music is enjoyable and many many people are happy to do it for free [/quote] People would do your job for less. That's why there is a minimum wage in the UK. By playing music for free, you are effectively the same as someone who comes to your workplace and offers to do your job for less and sleep 10 to a room.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440581225' post='2852057'] it's the same with any hobby, it's unfortunate that you've chosen a career that other people enjoy doing, but as I stated you have to make sure you're good enough to do it professionally, for instance the guys who play football on a Sunday morning do it for free because they're not good enough to get paid for it, go up a notch and you get semi pros who need a day job to earn enough money to live on, why should the music industry be any different? [/quote] Because you should be compensated for your work. If people paid to watch Sunday morning players kick a ball about then they'd expect to get a slice of that as they are what the people have come to see.

That's a tough one because the 'wage' part is only one factor. I couldn't subsidise my day job by telling my boss, it's ok, I'll work for less for you and just work nights for someone else to pay my mortgage.

I think they'll want to see accuracy and control. Speed and complexity is probably overthinking it. If my dentist stuck his fingers in my mouth and started playing Chopin on my teeth I'd wonder what he was doing.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1440542325' post='2851859'] ... I have a guitarist buddy in his 40s that is always giving me the Beatles [i]"I don't get it " [/i]routine. I'm like if it weren't for the chain reaction the Beatles started you might not even be playing an *electric guitar and might not have that long hair. Blue .... [/quote] My point being; Why does he have to get it? Why do you have to make him get it? Why is it a curse? Most people understand the massive sea change they bought about. If the guy is still playing in his 40s and doesn't follow the Beatles then something else has influenced him directly other than the Beatles. Why does it matter so much to you? In my earlier posts I'm just trying to put some points of view from the other persons viewpoint. I'm not a massive Beatles fan. In fact I can't stand most of their material. Whilst I agree they changed the world, it was over 50 years ago and the world moves on.

Maybe Blue is missing what it was really all about. Not music but teenage rebellion. And so being told that the Beatles were the greatest and everyone should bow down and worship them is a bit like my Grandad telling me to listen to James Last.

He does claim to have a wisdom and perspective that younger people just won't have. A perspective maybe but I'm not sure where wisdom comes from. And a perspective of having grown up in the 60s is no different to people who were at the Electric Ballroom and other venues in the 80s. I'm sorry but I'm one of those people who don't believe that the baby boomer and 60s generation have a monopoly on pop culture.