TimR

We're going to take a 5 minute break for 10 minutes, see you in 15... Even pros can leave you hanging on; Axl Rose? We went to see Richard Bona at the Camden Jazz Cafe. Doors open 7 but we know the acts never start until 9 so we went for something to eat first. But were in the venue at 8:30, Inthink he came on very close to 10:00, at 11:00 lots people were leaving so that they could get the last train home. I suppose the band may well have only been asked to play two sets with an hour break. I've done charity events that have been really badly organised by well meaning people who haven't got a clue and won't listen to reason. "We've only got £300 for the band, what can do? 2x45mins? OK my mate has an iPod we'll put music on over the PA for people to dance to, in the break."

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1392114958' post='2364746'] ... interact ... [/quote] Good word that. Doesn't necessarily mean talk. It's a two way street. If the audience don't want to play, there's always your band mates. And it doesn't necessarily mean talk.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392481110' post='2369261'] What, like these you mean? [/quote] Yes. Exactly like that. You acknowledge that there are circumstances where you can't cover everything. Then when Stu and I suggest that there are circumstances beyond our control, we are somehow wrong.

I am sorry but when you make statements like those below, it leads me down a certain avenue of thinking. [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392310779' post='2367182'] ... RCDs are the thing to help prevent electrical shock, not fuses. And even RCDs can't offer total protection. [/quote] [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392421764' post='2368729'] ... 5. Both you and TimR think sh1t happens ... [/quote]

It's personalised because I know you are/were a company director and I can't believe you are so ignorant of your responsibilities under the health and safety at work regulations. This leads me to feel once again you are playing devil's advocate and presenting straw man proposals deliberately to prolong discussion. I may be wrong and you may be completely ignorant of your responsibilities, which is an entirely different debate.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392465808' post='2369033'] Now that's the most constructive post so far in terms of better understanding this whole thing. Interesting. [/quote] I mentioned that earlier and you even quoted it. It will form part of my experiment.

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1392424601' post='2368759'] At the risk of perpetuating this yet further, the other thing to consider is contact area. While a fuse has a big flat contact area to go into the big flat [1] fuseholder, the threaded bit of a bolt provides a series of teeny-tiny contact lines. That's going to be the major factor in considering the current-carrying area as a fuse has a considerably larger contact area than conductive cross-sectional area, while for a threaded bolt the reverse is true. [1] Well, curved, but an even surface [/quote] And does the bolt fit the holder or is it rattling around, expanding and contracting with the heat.

I'm going to wire up a bolt next week and see what happens.

So a 6mm bolt has a cross sectional area of 28mm2 which is close to 10x 2.5mm2. But that's of passing coincidental interest. Lol.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392419261' post='2368698'] @TimR - Industrial datacomms equipment. Why are my questions strange? And even if you think they are, why not try answering them? The volts drop across the bolt for example? I'm asking it because your post estimated 6kW "through the bolt and fire system combined", which is fine, but I'm sure you understand that the amount of that power that is actually dissipated [i]within[/u] that bolt and therefore acting to heat it up, will be largely dependent on the voltage across that bolt. Which is why I asked the question. Is that really so strange? [/quote] No. It's the constant questions when you get an answer you question that as well. It gets worse because the fuse at the DB would be a 30amp and probably capable of 40-50 amps for a couple of minutes. The bolt (if carbon steel) would have to have 10times the cross sectional area of the copper to have the same resistance. Then we also have to look at contact area and resistance of the bolt with the holder. As big Stu implies unless you do a forensic examination of the whole thing it's all educated guesses. Fires do happen due to faulty electrical equipment that's protected correctly and tested and checked regularly but they happen more often to equipment that isn't. Check your gear regularly and don't cut corners because it's not expensive. It makes sense.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392418001' post='2368682'] Doesn't that sound like a case for suggesting that the fittings involved are not adequately protected by the rated fuse? I know that a 13A fuse will not blow as soon as 14A flows through it, but so do the people that define all the wiring regs, so you'd think they'd take account of that sort of thing wouldn't they? 'Hopefully' sounds a bit vague for a H&S procedure to me! [/quote] What can you take account of? You can only cover so many scenarios. Sometimes as big Stu says 'sh*t happens'. That's why we have regular checks, sprinkler systems, fire alarms, fire brigade and so on. By 'hopefully' I mean that the evidence of overheating is present when the PAT is done and not after. You can't catch everything, you can just try to catch them. What did you say your business did? You're asking some very strange questions for a director of an electrical design company.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392417169' post='2368672'] Where did I say I 'knew' it was steel? I just suggested steel for the basis of the discussion with TimR just to make some rough approximations to see if some sense can be made of the whole thing. [/quote] Really you don't need to make sense of it. Today we replaced a fused spur at work that had caught fire with a 13amp fuse in it. That was due to a faulty electric thyristor on a heater. Everything else was in order. The fuse will only ever blow if enough current flows for long enough. A pat will open the plug and check the size and condition of the fuse and hopefully spot any charring or discolouration early.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392415852' post='2368645'] Interesting suggestion. What sort of massive current do you estimate would be required to cause an M8 steel bolt to become red hot? [/quote] Well an M6 would fit a 6mm fuse best. Let's say a 3kW fire chucks out say 3kW of heat. That's enough to boil a litre of water in about 3mins. When I've looked at elements on a fire they're usually glowing red hot. On a three bar fire that's about 4 amps per element. Let's say the fuse at the DB is a 16amp, that would quite happily run for a while at 25amps. So let's say 6kW through the bolt and the fire system combined. The cable would be melting through the sheath and the plastic of the plug probably on fire.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392395045' post='2368209'] When did I claim to be an expert - I said I find it hard to believe, but at least I explained my reasoning. I can only go on the information you provided and "electric fire" is singular last time I checked and would not draw more than 13A would it? If the actual circumstances were different to what you described then all sorts of things are possible, but I'm not clairvoyant either. [/quote] The problem is many people find it hard to believe until they've seen it happen. You don't have to be clairvoyant to realise that the elements on a fire can fail to a lower resistance that is high enough to draw a massive current. You just need to understand how the element is constructed and ohms law.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392384873' post='2367996'] True, but we're only talking about a length of about 20mm and probably a cross-sectional area of about 10x that of the copper supplying the current and maybe about the same as the actual pins on the plug. Maybe if it was a rusty bolt with a poor electrical connection, but even then . . . .? Anyway, an electric fire will only pull a max of about 13A . . . Maybe the guy had half a dozen of them plugged in? [/quote] The story goes basically the same every time. Electrical fault. Fuse blows. Replace fuse. Circuit ok for a few days and then fuse blows again. Numpty changes fuse and the process repeats. Eventually numpty gets bored or runs out of fuses and can't see any obvious problem so replaces with 6mm bolt. Then house catches fire and numpty dies. Darwin is satisfied and the humans move up the evolutionary ladder another rung.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392296698' post='2366888'] Anyone who thinks a 13A fuse instead of a bolt is going to save them from a nasty shock is, er, in for a nasty shock. I also find it hard to believe that a metal bolt could be glowing red hot while the consumer unit fuse had not blown or even the house wiring cabling to the socket had not burned through first. But these sort of anecdotal stories abound. [/quote] Depends what the metal bolt is made of. If its resistance is high enough it will act as a heater while the current is kept fairly low. A 30amp fuse in the main circuit could easily pass 60amps for several minutes without blowing. According to wikipedia Carbon steel has 10x the resistance of copper.

Burnout? Three bands is a struggle. I did two bands for a very long time. The problem I had was by comparing the two bands subconsciously I started to see problems with the first band, that probably weren't there. Although since leaving the first band, and subsequently the second band folding, my latest band now has me wondering why I stayed in the first two for so long. Anyway, it's all a learning curve and sometimes a dip, keep moving and playing with new musicians and you'll keep learning. I'm a great believer in moving on when things become stale for you, particularly when performing music, because you can't fake it forever.

[quote name='lonestar' timestamp='1391978617' post='2363265'] Calm down it's only satire ! It is in fact from a humorous book by an American writer ( music journo?)which I was given for Christmas a few years ago and was called the Rock Bible or something. I cant believe that anyone ever intended these to be taken seriously although judging by the vitriolic response of some of the humourless miserable gits on here and facebook the irony got lost somewhere mid Atlantic. It made me smile anyway. edit:http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Rock-Bible-Scriptures-Bands/dp/1594742693 [/quote] Unless they're being just as ironic. I suppose if you were to take it seriously, at least if your band confirms to all those old tired rock band cliches, be aware that they're tired cliches and revel in the fact. For god sake don't think you're being edgy unless you've taken that cliche to new levels like Mr Venom.

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1391895453' post='2362488'] ... Have a heart, it's like telling the bass player he mustn't play a Precision. [/quote] That's rule 5iv

[quote name='seashell' timestamp='1391800645' post='2361532'] Well I thought it was funny. Totally agree with number 9. And I would never take my top off at a gig. No matter how many blokes in the audience called for it [/quote] I went to a gig like that. I had to leave in the break, the band sounded awful

14. Keyboard player. Three sounds are all you need, piano, strings and Hammond. You don't need to sit, you're not even carrying your instrument. Throw away that music stand, we know you can sight read but this is rock, learn the three chords. Put that left hand in your pocket, we have a bass player.

And read that thinking of me with a gentle smile on my face and a pint in my hand.

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1391777578' post='2361159'] ... Now, in saying that, I'm pretty sure that it's not your intention to present in such a manner, ... [/quote] No it's not cheers. It just winds me up when people just repeat what they've read in the papers or some urban legend without thinking for themselves. People aren't stupid but what we're fond of doing is just repeating stuff without thinking whether it's right and if it goes against what we would like then it's doom and gloom or a conspiracy. My Facebook feed is full of it, the papers are full of it, my mates repeat it down the pub, people harp on about it here, my colleagues go on about it at work. I really am not surprised Fly and Dad have left the rat race and given up (obviously from the other standpoint) but I think if people just stopped to think for a second how things actually are, there'd be a lot more happiness.

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1391776939' post='2361149'] Dad and flyfisher, it strikes me that some people, when faced with the apparently abhorrent if not terrifying notion that not all peoples on Earth agree with them, get their knickers in a twist. [/quote] It's not a slight disagreement, it's the assertion that we're all heading into a doomed blind alley. Which is plainly nonsense.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1391775429' post='2361129'] ...but why this virulent exageration all of a sudden..? I don't recognise your descriptionabove from the posts in this thread. It's been stated many times that qualifications are indeed valued; it has simply been mooted that they are not the only and definitive way of establishing competence. Is that so terrible an assertion..? [/quote] Ok. I think I've got threads confused, both this thread and the PAT thread seem to have run into a parrellel corner (if such a thing exists). Someone posted a video of a boiling frog. I was under the impression they thought the whole world was doomed because everyone was paralysed over bits of paper and H&S.