TimR

I don't know what the manufacturers use as a 4ohm load. If its a speaker then at a sine wave of 1khz a 4ohm speak is NOT 4ohms. Neither is an 8ohm speaker 8ohms. It'll be different for all speakers. We're also talking about a reactive load so there will be phase differences and all sorts going on. DC theory will only get you so far. You just have to content yourselves with the knowledge that transistors are NOT linear devices. Look at some current curves. You can-nae break the laws of physics.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1081654' date='Jan 7 2011, 11:38 PM']I think heat sinking is factor too. Running more power means it all warms up and the transistors don't work as well hot, I'd guess their internal impedance increases. And beeinf up heat sinks is a big weight gain (see Peavey amps that run to 2ohm).l[/quote] The opposite. Silicon has a negative temperature co-efficient of resistance once it gets over a certain temp it will go into thermal runaway. Hotter it gets the more current it passes, the more current it passes the hotter it gets - queue blue smoke. There are lots of ways to try to stop this such as by piggybacking transistors so that as they get hot one drains the current away from the other. This again impacts on the current the amplifier can drive.

It's not the power supply. It's the characteristic of the device that is amplifying the current. The power supply just supplies the current and voltage to that device. The current still has to pass through it. If you want a more powerful amplifier then you just get a bigger device, but that means more cost. Hence more power = more cost. You're still looking at it from the wrong angle. The maximum power is determined by the maximum current through that device. The 8ohm power is then a function of the full power at 4ohms. It's not that you can't get double through 4ohms it's that you get more than half at 8ohms. As Bill intimated earlier. The power output is not linear. This is why you get power compression at the top end of the amplifiers range.

What?

Its not a case of not being able to get double the power out of 4ohms, more a case of being able to get more than half out of 8ohms.

Amplifiers are current devices, not voltage devices. The power is limited by the current it supplies. If the voltage rail maximum is 50v then into 8ohms you get 312watts which is 6amps give or take. With the voltage rail still at 50v then theoretically into 4ohms you'll get 625watts but if the amp is limited to 11amps then you can only get 484watts. It's not the transformer it's just the way that the transistors or valves work.

Part of my job is to source parts. Email is OK, but not for everything. The trick is to know which type of communication to use for what. Often I'll email a retailer and don't hear anything back. After a day I'll call them by phone to chase. Usually they've passed my email on to their supplier and forgotten about it or are still waiting for a reply. Very rarely do they ignore it. My standard approach is email the technical details. Wait 24hours and if no reply then call to check they've done something about it. If its not a technical question eg do you sell X or can you get it for me? Then you should always use the phone. There is a ringtone I can't stand due to a manager who used to call constantly to check up on where I was.

If you don't read that's: Eb Eb Db Db B B Ab Ab | F F Eb Eb Db Db Db C |

[quote name='terryblyth' post='1073008' date='Dec 30 2010, 07:03 PM'][/quote] That's the one. I was wrong. The last three notes of the run down are the same and its the keys/guitars that are playing some strange inversions. I knew it was something odd. That brain cell is being used for something else nowadays.

The last three notes of the run down and the first note of the chorus (whatever they are) are played over the same single chord that the rest of the band plays. This is why it will sound right when you play it to the recording, but not when you play it solo or if you play it with your band and they don't get that chord right. Most of the guitar tabs on line don't have it right either, guitarists always seem to want to play the bass notes as well! I did work out the chord about 5 years ago but can't help you with it now. sorry!

[quote name='redstriper' post='1067661' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:57 AM']It's only since deciding I want a new one and joining this forum that my problems began. ... ... I live in the sticks and don't get to see many new basses and all the ones I've tried sound and feel horrible because I don't like round wound strings. ... ... When I asked what they sounded like, he said he hadn't plugged them in to an amp, because they'd all sound alike depending on the player - a man after your own heart eh![/quote] Forums have their good and their bad points Have you thought of buying a set of flats and taking them around with you. I'm sure any decent shop will allow you to restring a bass if you find you like the feel and want to try before you buy. As long as you don't spend all day restringing bass after bass. I've found that the more experienced salesmen will leave you with the bass and tell you to ask if you want to try it with an amp. The less experienced will be plugging in the leads before they've found you a stool.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1067424' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:07 AM']... like a piano player who can't swap out pianos all the time. ...[/quote] Excellent point. I'll ask my Dad. You don't see pianists changing strings, or pianos every few months. What other musicians are there that obsess and swap instruments so much?

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066952' date='Dec 22 2010, 04:43 PM']Why not buy something that sounds bad, if tone doesn't matter ? In fact why bother listening at all ? Your 'sounds good' will not be the same as mine - tone, like everything else is subjective and I want to 'sound good' to me, not you.[/quote] That was in the initial post and I've clarified what I meant by it since - endlessly searching for that 'elusive tone' to the exclusion of everything else, rather than accepting what your ears are hearing. In fact the two examples Marcus Miller and John Entwistle are really quite interesting. Marcus - was given a bass and made his sound from it - legions of bass players are trying to get that tone. John - Became a millionaire after the song My Generation was recorded and then spent the rest of his life looking for some mystic tone that was in his head. Ironic considering that most people think of his tone as being the best on My Generation.

I used to be a critic. Now I just watch and enjoy. Occasionally I'll discuss their performance if I'm with another musician. Mostly I'll try to be positive about everyone I see. It's not easy to play live and anyone who gets out of their bedroom and puts the effort into rehearsing and playing a gig deserves some respect.

Funny enough I spent about 7 years looking for my bass. I didn't buy any others because I couldn't find the right one. I enough saved from gigs to go to about £2k but couldn't find anything at all that spoke to me. Ibanez SR400 for me £499. The only criticism is that it IS a cheap bass. It sounds great, the neck is good, the pickups are great. The bridge is a pain when you change strings. The machineheads aren't great and I replaced the whole lot of them like for like after one sheared off (at a gig!). I'm not changing it - overall it's a great bass.

[quote name='umph' post='1064131' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:46 PM']You seem to be putting across a kind've vibe that insinuates you think people who fuss about their gear are inferior.[/quote] Ok. Sorry, it's not intentional, I think it's just the way you're reading it. No need for name calling Most, if not all, of us want to sound good and we all spend a lot of time looking for gear that gives us the sound we are after. Just I think some lose their way and become obsessive. They can't see the woods for the trees. It's easily done, I just wondered to what degree people were obsessed. From this thread most don't seem to be as obsessed as I thought, but then maybe the obsessives are busy looking for new gear on other threads

I wonder if he had a big influence on how he sounded and was altering how he sounded on the albums then? It would also explain how so many people can claim to own a bass once owned by Entwistle

[quote name='umph' post='1064095' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:23 PM']i build all my own gear so not really searching for it since all my stuff does sounds i like and i'm pretty happy with it.[/quote] Is this because you like how it sounds or because you have experimented and make it to sound how you like. [quote name='umph' post='1064095' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:23 PM']No need to be a dick about people enjoying finding the sound in their head.[/quote] I don't understand this comment.

[quote]In 1969, The Who released Tommy, (with two contributes from John, "Cousin Kevin" and "Fiddle About", both of which were branded "sick" by the BBC) which put the band firmly in the major league. It also made them all millionaires, which finally allowed John to live the sort of lifestyle he had dreamt about. Once he was able to afford it, one of his passions was collecting bass guitars - at any one time he could have up to 250 of them. This wasn't just a rich man's indulgence - John was always searching for a better tone, and tried every different bass he could get his hands on, trying to find the sound he longed for.[/quote] Shame when so many people search for that "My Generation sound"

[quote]In 1969, The Who released Tommy, (with two contributes from John, "Cousin Kevin" and "Fiddle About", both of which were branded "sick" by the BBC) which put the band firmly in the major league. It also made them all millionaires, which finally allowed John to live the sort of lifestyle he had dreamt about. Once he was able to afford it, one of his passions was collecting bass guitars - at any one time he could have up to 250 of them. This wasn't just a rich man's indulgence - John was always searching for a better tone, and tried every different bass he could get his hands on, trying to find the sound he longed for.[/quote]

[quote name='umph' post='1064065' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:58 PM']i'm bored of these threads, unfortunatly different gear does effect how you sound and unfortunatly punters tend to like it more if it sounds more pleasing to the ears.[/quote] I see you are selling some pickups. Are you one of these people still searching for that elusive "Tone"?

[quote name='silddx' post='1063713' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:58 PM']It seems obvious that some people got a tone they liked easily, maybe because they had little choice of gear, or they were easily pleased, or they thought all basses sound the same, whatever. That's the early days of the electric bass and studio production and live sound reinforcement. Things are infinitely more advanced now and we would be stupid to ignore the possibilities for accurate reproduction of what we hear in our heads. Some players really care about that, some don't, some players heads are full of other stuff they would rather worry about. If you change this thread title to "the FEEL fallacy" and argue that the feel of the instrument, its action and neck dimensions, etc. are a fallacy and we should concentrate on notes, what do you think the response would be?[/quote] The thread is really a thought experiment. Of course tone is important but its qualitative and not quantitative. I thought it would be interesting to see how much emphasis people put into finding "Their tone". Without interviewing famous people at length and asking what lengths they have gone into to get "Their tone" we can only speculate what was in their minds. I found a nice workable tone several years ago, then my gear became outdated and started to be less reliable and there were lighter options around. The balance is then how much effort and money should I invest trying to find "My tone" again? If I play a duff sounding gig do I throw out all my gear and buy a whole load of new stuff? What lengths are people going to modify their tone instead of living with the tone they naturally produce? I've posted what I like, what do other people like and are they happy?

[quote name='Mog' post='1063240' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:24 AM']Theres no way I can agree with the OP, thats right up there with what bass sounds best for metal. The whole 'My Tone' thing is whats makes us individual. Imagine if all basses had that farty Jaco tone or Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang?[/quote] I think you're missing the point of my argument. If we all sounded the same you would be right. I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen? So we loved Geddy Lee's Rick sound then we argue whether he used the Rick or whether he had moved to the jazz for a certain record. People on the forum buy 4x10s and then sell them to buy 15s in their search. Its this minutiae that I don't get. A dub sound is dub sound to me. In a live setting I couldn't tell Mr Xs dub sound from Mr Y's dub sound. Not that I listen to dub so maybe that's a bad example. If I hear Harris I know its Harris - does he change his gear every few weeks in an effort to get it closer to what's in his head or did he find a sound that he liked very early in his career and just run with it? What about Jaco, did he try this and that filler for his frets and this and that coating or did he just pull the frets, fill coat the board and think wow that sounds interesting.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1063249' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:33 AM']... The only marketing that gets me is Marmite, As soon as I see an advert for it I crave it on toast! Yum[/quote] Can't stand the stuff Yuck. But illustrates one of my points perfectly. We're all different. Vivre la difference. For each of us the tone comes from different parts of our chain in different proportions. To say the amp is 5% is nonsense. It could be 0%-99% depending who you are. I am not Mark King, Steve Harris, or Fred Smith. Copying their tone or hankering after it is completely pointless unless you are playing in a Level 42, Iron Maiden or Fred Smith and the ToneDeafs tribute act. In which case you'd better get it exactly or the bassists in the crowd at your gigs will have your b***s on a plate. What I'm really getting at is having a sound in your head and chasing it for years is fairly pointless. Listen to what you actually produce and modify it until you are happy, be prepared to change it in a band setting and relax when you're playing live. If you like the SVT buy one but not because it makes you sound like Mr. X, but because its getting you close to that sound in the head. The sound in your head will never be the sound in your ears and certainly never be the sound in your audiences ears. Short fingernails, round wound strings, rosewood fingerboard, PJ pickups and transparent amp is what gets me close. EQ on the amp can help get the message through a crowded band mix and dodgy room acoustics. Not always, but sometimes you just have to live with what you have.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1062775' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:00 PM']Your tone is determined by the way you play. There is note choices and timing, but would you recognise a dude from their stuff being played on a keyboard? I once read that tone is 85% fingers 10% bass and 5% rig, and it has stood up pretty well. Of course, volume is 100% rig, and that is the important bit for me.[/quote] OK, this is close to my thinking. I don't think that your note choices and timing are anything to do with tone. They're style. Style and tone may define your "sound". I believe that the bass is a lot more than 10% but the 5% for the rig is probably close although the rig part is pretty essential component in the final chain. I think that a lot of rigs are transparent enough that if you are producing a good tone from the bass you don't have to worry too much about the rig. I spent 7 years looking for a bass that was right for me. Most of this searching was to find fingerboard width and weight, but there was a strong influence on fingerboard type and pickup type. If I knew then what I knew now I would have build one myself. The point I'm trying to make is who is it that actually listens to your tone. I've had compliments from other players (which makes me feel all warm inside - awww shucks guys you're too kind ) but I've also been surprised at how at some gigs I've just been happy to play with whatever sounds happens to come out of the amp when I turn it on. Other gigs I've twiddled madly with knobs all night trying to get something useable out of my normal gear. The band leader's has asked me at the end whether I was having problems and then said it sounded OK to him.