TimR

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1062777' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:01 PM']This one line defeats your whole post! ...[/quote] Isn't being human great You can hold two completly opposing views at the same time and be happy with them. Hopefully I won't now spend the next two days trying to explain myself on the Internet.

There are things we know about human biology and psyche. We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind. We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding. We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music. Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once. So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work. Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes. Or am I alone here.

Ideally your PA should be totally transparent and the sound of your bass should be the same through the PA as it is from your cabs. There are several reasons why this doesn't always work. 1). Band PA is not always what you need - It would be great to have and expensive mixer and pre-amps and arrays of parametric EQ with thousands of watts of power and fantastic subs. In reality you have a pair of 12" or 15" speakers owned by the singer with a Behringer poweramp and mixer. 2). Soundman is not always your best friend - ideally you have your own who knows what you are supposed to sound like. Alternatively the venue soundman listens to your band playing and talks to you before even touching his PA and learns very quickly what you want. In reality you get someone who is only interested in turning the system up to 1.1 gigawatts to show it off. 3). Bands don't have producers - Someone who listens to your tracks and says OK I know you like that fill there, or you like that bass tone, but guys - it's just doesn't work live. There are many others but you get the idea.

If 4x10 volume is fine, why not just get 2 2x10s and stack them vertically. Similar volume might give you more presence.

I don't think that the 2x10 and the 4x10 can have the same drivers in them - the sonic results are going to be very unpredictable. I've mixed lots of different cabs, some work some don't. You'll be fine running a larger power amp into smaller speakers. If you get distortion from the speakers back off the volume and don't EVER lend your rig to someone who doesn't understand this. I think (from fag packet workings) that you will be limited to 400watts total (200W+200W) As has already been said the power will be equally split. This is less than the 500W you could get from the 4x10 on its own. The 200W, 500W etc don't really have a lot of bearing on anything other than they give an indication of what you [b]can't[/b] do electrically rather than how loud it will be or what the resulting sound will be like. If its dispersion you are after, consider taking a line or Di out from your amp to the PA and EQ all the bass out of this DI.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1050050' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:29 PM']... Regarding the 'order' of loudness of instruments, this makes absolutely no sense to a sound engineer whether you're talking about live or recorded. You're not all producing the loudest part of your signal at the same time - live, the drums will always be way louder than anything else at their peak but that lasts a fraction of a second each beat, in between is when you hear the guitar etc. Plus you can have multiple sounds all loudest at different frequencies - the ability of ears to separate out different frequency sounds is why we can enjoy polyphonic music! ...[/quote] It does. The vocals need to be heard and need to be louder, they're in the same frequency range as the guitars. Essentially, what you are talking about is mostly down to arrangements. Whether you are talking louder across the spectrum or just louder in the characteristic frequencies for that voice/instrument. A mix where every instrument is the same volume will sound bland and uninteresting. It is down to each performer to know when to play loudly and when to play quietly. Individual dynamics and group dynamics are what makes the music come alive. Equally a band where every musician is throwing in fancy licks and frills at every opportunity is tiring. I stopped playing in bands like that 15 years ago, but I still see bands playing like that. Simply blasting the audience with everything at the same volume won't work. If the guitarist is using the band as a vehicle to show off his talents and the band are happy with that then no problem, turn down and stick around for the ride. If not then the whole band need to have a word.

The only problem with starting with the drums is that if the venue isn't big enough the band will quickly get too loud for the room. The guitarist is almost right. Start with the vocals then add the guitars so that they are loud but the vocals are still inteilligble. This may mean adding more treble to the vocals to cut through. Then add the bass. You may have to sacrifice the tone that you have at home but you need to 'scuplt' your tone to fit with the guitars. Then the drummer has to play at the right volume to balance it all out. If at any point you start to lose the vocals, turn everything else down. It's a band not a competition on who can be heard and who is loudest. When the guitar boosts for a solo he should just come up 3 or 4 dB so that he can be heard. Remember girls listen to the words, blokes listen to the music.

Train someone up on the basics of how to adjust levels and learn frequencies to eliminate feedback and get instruments to sit in the mix. Set the PA up for them. As the band get more experience they will learn that what they hear in the monitors sometimes ranges from absolute rubbish to excellent depending on the stage acoustics (NOT the PA). They'll learn how to cope and deal with it. However it's important for them to be able to trust what is coming out of the front is sounding good. Someone behind a desk smiling and fading up lead vocals and guitar solos is what you need. If you start getting feedback from the drum mics you are going to be banjaxed as you'll never sort that while trying to play the bass. If the band is inexperienced and you get a bad monitor mix there will be all sorts of arguments - either during the sound check (BAD) or after the show. If you are running the mixer you will bear the brunt of this.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1031444' date='Nov 21 2010, 02:54 PM']I've farted out 8x10s. They don't like lows. Lesson is: Never use one 8x10.[/quote] Sealed or ported?

[quote name='Conan' post='1031383' date='Nov 21 2010, 01:44 PM']I may be wrong here, but isn't the decibel scale logarithmic? Meaning that an increase in 10dB makes a sound 10 times louder? In which case, would 6-7 dB be a huge increase in perceived volume? If I'm wrong of course, please ignore this b0ll0cks!! [/quote] 3dB is double the SPL. 10dB is consdiered double the apparent volume, but subjective. The numbers are meaningless as it depends on the frequencies.

Bill, you've really surprised me with that answer. I'm going with 6-7dB using comparable cabs from the same manufacturer. I suppose an experiment could be carried out with 4 2x10"s arranged in 2 1x4 speaker configurations. ie 2 vertical stacks of 2 2x10" next to each other and unplugging one pair to A-B the sound. My guess is that the 6-7dB won't be that noticeable for most people. How many people use an 8x10" at full power?

[quote name='stevie' post='1027946' date='Nov 18 2010, 02:19 PM']... I’ve nothing against stacking speakers myself. It gets the top one closer to ear height as Thom mentioned a while ago, and this is the main benefit of the configuration. However, as Protium also pointed out, the seven foot tall 8 x 10 highlights the shortcomings of insisting on a vertical layout no matter what. What counts is what works.[/quote] How loud does an 8x10 'sound' compared to a 4x10 vertical stack?

PeteAcademy would probably be able to help you. PM him.

The problem is that you are then tied to always using that bass and amp combination. Any new amp will need to be modded and you can't take that bass to a jam or use another band's, venue's or practice studio's amps with your bass, unless you keep the 1/4" as well and your bass can run without the pre-amp. If you're talking about proper phantom then just use a standard 3pin XLR, put in a DC/DC converter chip inside the bass to drop the voltage to 9v and the jobs done. But then you're still tied to using a mixer with a phantom supply. Although yopu can get stand alone phantom supplies that would work as I describe above. It won't matter if someone plugs a mic in then. DMX and XLR is always an issue anyway so just be careful like everyone else has to be. I'll maintain the most simple solution is rechargeable batteries and an easily open-able battery compartment, rather than the 5 screws I have on my bass.

I wouldn't mod the amp. I would build a box to sit on the amp that provided the 9v and had two 1/4" sockets. One a stereo (TRS) and one a mono. The mono to go to your amp and the TRS to go to your bass. Then you can simply modify your bass wiring so that the existing socket recieves the power instead of just switching it. Which is just linking out the battery on some basses. You can just use a normal stereo lead then. But what is the problem with batteries?

I thought about this a long time ago. The only 'problem' with batteries I can think of is it's difficult to change the battery. Why not get one of these: [url="http://www.allparts.com/Battery-Compartment-p/ep-0929-023.htm"]http://www.allparts.com/Battery-Compartmen...ep-0929-023.htm[/url]

It depends very much on what else I was going to be doing there. Networking and making useful contacts? Are you going to drive there, get out of the car, walk onto stage, play then get in your car and drive home? Are you going to have to turn up at mid-day and wait until 11pm to play? How productively can you use the time you are not playing? Would you have time to visit local venues and check the area for other gigs? Stay overnight and do a bigger gig the next night? No I wouldn't drive for 3 hours to play 3 songs unless it was for TV or similar. Although when I used to compete in a brass band we would drive to France, Germany and Holland and spend hundreds of pounds effectively just to play for 15 minutes. However, that was never the total aim of the trip, we would add practices in and concerts and it was a generally good week of socialising and meeting new people .

[quote name='gafbass02' post='1023535' date='Nov 14 2010, 04:00 PM']... After a bit this mahoosive black dude looms over me and drawls in my ear in a deep US accent. "That's some incredible bass man, I used to play for 25 years and boy, you play like Jaco!" ...[/quote] You do know Jaco is dead? It's nice to receive a compliment and they cost nothing to give. I give them out when I think someone's played what's needed. If they haven't - I don't. It's usually quite puzzling when someone comes up to you and says how much they've enjoyed it when you know you haven't played your best. I always try to put it into perspective: If they're not a musician what we do is awe inspiring, no matter how well or badly we've done it. Thank them for the compliment. You've worked at something for years and deserve a bit of praise just for doing that. If they are a bass player we have no idea how good a bass player they are and they've no idea whether what you played was kept simple because that's your interpretation of what was required or whether you can't play anything more technical Sometimes they're just being friendly, get them to buy you a drink.

I'm considering getting some boxing gloves. I think they will definitely improve my playing but I'm concerned that they would affect my tone.

Our guitarists have these. Clip on I'm afraid but can be powered by adaptor. [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mighty-Bright-Light-Duet/dp/1935009095/ref=pd_cp_MI_3"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mighty-Bright-Ligh.../ref=pd_cp_MI_3[/url]

AM1 posted on the Depression thread last night.

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1005612' date='Oct 29 2010, 06:51 PM']A priceless comment from our drummer at rehearsal last night when asked to set the right time by providing a lead-in using the kick drum: "[i]I don't usually use the bass drum[/i]". The ensuing silence was no doubt the combined diplomatic restraint of the rest of us resisting the temptation to shout "[i]yes, we know, that's the f*cking problem[/i]". Oh dear - bands and mates. Can the two ever happily coexist?[/quote] Is this the same drummer you wrote about that had no stamina?

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002873' date='Oct 27 2010, 07:04 PM']I meant that what you play can change but how you play shouldn't need to. You always have to play the right stuff, but harmony can be part of the groove. Kenny Gradney doesn't alter what he plays if Little Feat add the TOP horns and Francis Rocco Prestia plays exactly the same in TOP as he does on his solo album, which hardly has any horns on at all. Duck Dunn's style doesn't change when he's in the MG's or behind the full Stax show. Tommy Shannon just grooves behind Stevie Ray Vaughn. As you said, it really is a case of "quality over quantity every time".[/quote] In those cases they're playing mainly groove orientated funk. Where the guitars, keys and brass are playing padding and the drums and bass are driving the band. It's all in the arrangement and different genres require different approaches. We find in a 5 piece that it is not impossible to play a pop tune that is originally played by a three piece with an additional guitar, the extra guitar just has to be careful what they play and the bass can still play the original bass line in most tunes. I think where it gets difficult is when you go the other way. What happens when you play a tune in a three piece that is well known as a big band (7+) piece. As the OP suggests, it's really good to play in lots of different scenarios and use your ears so that you don't get into a fixed mind set of what the bass player is and does.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002767' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:36 PM']You've mainly got to work with the drummer. The number of people who are bolted on the front of the rhythm section doesn't change how that works. So a 3 or 10 piece band shouldn't make any difference to the bass. Then it's everyone else's job to work with you. It's my objective to push the rhythm section forward in the band mix. I know every element is important but the groove “top trumps” the rest of the band in my opinion.[/quote] I think if you play the same way with 3 as you do with 10 then you're definitely missing something musically. In a 3 piece you'll often need to add to the harmony as well not just stick to the bass and groove. If you try to add to harmony in a 10 piece you're going to get fed up when no one can hear your bass line or the keyboard player appears to be stamping all over your line.

[quote name='Marvin' post='1002733' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:19 PM']I may be talking rubbish but it's a bit harder work with only one guitarist. People can actually hear you and with my playing that's the last thing people need. Best for me if I'm hidden a little.[/quote] Well its actually a lot easier because you only have to listen to two people. It may be harder in the respect that you may have to play more but that's not always true. There are a lot of bass players who play far too much in an effort to fill sonic space that doesn't actually need to be filled. Quality over quantity every time.