TimR

Its all in the arrangement. If you can find 2 guitarists who understand this then you are on to a winner. I've been playing in a 5 piece for just over a year now and have managed to get them to tweak almost every song in their/our repertoire so that they're not both chugging away at the same chords with (almost ) the same rhythm. If the guitarists don't get the fact that even though they're playing the same instrument they're are supposed to be playing different parts then you have a hard job. Even harder if you find one of them is also trying to add bass notes to their chords to "fatten" up the sound. I've played in trios and all sorts of combinations up to nine piece bands and a large 70 piece concert band with 12+ parts. It's the same whether it's a three piece or a twenty-three piece: If the other musicians are not listening to each other it's not a band, its a group of soloists.

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='993572' date='Oct 19 2010, 02:24 PM']Any tips on how to acliatise to playing with plugs? I'm sure the ER20's are up to the job. I just can't deal with the change in what I'm hearing. I guess the bits I listen out for with the drummer and the guitarist aren't as easy to pick up on as without plugs.[/quote] I've got the ER20s. I can't tell the difference between them in or out other than the volume.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='993138' date='Oct 19 2010, 08:38 AM']I just want to point out an error a few people are making. The worst damage you can do to your ears is constant noise. A drummer rim shotting a snare, though it may hurt more than a guitarist playing loudly, it'll do less damage because it's not constant. I have pretty bad tinnitus, when I was a kid I used to go to big gigs and would stand right in front of PA speakers, never wore earplugs. I'm paying for it now (at 25). I ALWAYS try and take earplugs. Very rarely I forget them. I do have full hearing range and for stuff like mixing, I can still do an alright job. I do find it harder hearing high-pitched noises though, though that's more because it mingles with the tinnitus than because it's not there.[/quote] Be careful here. Less damage? It's time AND volume related. Where did you get your hearing range checked? Check my post on the ear plug sticky here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=533&view=findpost&p=958996"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=958996[/url] and the Deafness Reasearch page on Tinnitus hre: [url="http://www.deafnessresearch.org.uk/1925/about-tinnitus/what-is-tinnitus.html"]http://www.deafnessresearch.org.uk/1925/ab...s-tinnitus.html[/url]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='992156' date='Oct 18 2010, 12:53 PM']I've always used ER20s (the conical rubber, christmas tree types) but my band members were saying the ER25s just make everything quieter rather than cut out all the energy-driven high mids. I'll post a comparison between the ER20s (not moulded) and the ER25s (moulded) when I get them but it could be 4 weeks! Dan[/quote] [url="http://www.etymotic.com/pdf/erme-brochure.pdf"]http://www.etymotic.com/pdf/erme-brochure.pdf[/url] The difference between the 15, 20 and 25 is that the 20s are not custom fit. Each one drops the sound level by 15dB ,20dB and 25dB flat (or flat as is possible) across the frequency range. If you play a wind instrument or sing the sound gets transmitted inside your head through your bones, bounces around the back of the plug and sounds 'funny'. The custom moulded ones have vents to stop this happening.

[quote name='tauzero' post='990835' date='Oct 17 2010, 02:43 AM'].....any perching of beer on top of it would be immediately corrected...[/quote] I played with a drummer who did this. Once. I put his beer on his floor tom. He got the message.

It's all about being immersed in a style of music. Eg. If you've spent all your life listening to rock but never listened to regae then you're going to struggle and vice-versa. To play a style convincingly you need to be conversant with the relevant nuances and this will probably mean listenenig and playing to hours of different examples. You could probably fake your way through one or two rock songs but gig after gig and picking up new tunes quickly? Doesn't this come down to the old 'feel' argument?

I struggled with a keys player where both of us were over using gliss. Quite often he would play a gliss half a beat behind me. I suggested only one of us play them but I didn't mind who. He said I should play them but then continued to play them. Very frustrating. The answer? Record the sessions and listen to them back first on your own then with the rest of the band. First, make sure you are not imagining things and that it is not you who are overplaying. After listening to one song I very quickly came to the conclusion that we were both playing too many gliss. Again less is more. Just because there is a space in the music you don't always have to fill it. Something that's often hard to get through to novice drummers. Then when I played the recording to the band they all agreed that there was too much going on in a lot of the songs and we [b]ALL[/b] simplified our parts which gave a much more powerful and cleaner sound. (apart from the bonehead drummer - but that's another story completely )

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='989745' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:37 PM']Yep (sorry cars again!) but theres an old chap near me that does tuning on all the old classic cars by ear just like a musician and they run sweet as a nut. Experience of knowing what he is listening for just the same as playing in a band IMO.[/quote] Indeed there are mechanics who tinker with old cars but there are engineers who design jet engines. A drummer friend of mine told me if I wanted to look at some complex theory based music I should listen to Metallica. WTF? I was listening to Metallica before he was born, I nearly fell of my stool. There have been many instances where classical players can't swing and where one musician has been chosen over another because of style. As far as I'm concerned it is an art. Some prefer watercolours, some oils. I've studied a lot of theory and know how to write down the pop songs so that I can play them and so that my keyboard player knows what's going on. Usually my charts involve a mixture of traditional staff notation and chord charts. I'm surprised that a music college doesn't have a huge amount of performance based coursework and that musicians can pass courses without being able to perform in a group situation. I know that Middlesex University does a number of music related courses, I played with a really good drummer whose second instrument was piano. He knew more theory than anyone else I've ever met, and he was under 20 years old, but his course was Jazz and I never heard him play anything else. Maybe the problem with the OP is that the musicians he is playing with have come from a specific course that is not related to the style of music he is playing?

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='989754' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:41 PM']I had it happen a couple of times back in the late 90s, raised the issue & the parts were changed. I was amazed nobody else in the band picked up on it because we were really clashing[/quote] I sometimes get the feeling that the bass player is the only one who listenes to the whole band. Everyone else seems to listen for cues but doesn't listen to how their contribution is fitting in.

[quote name='risingson' post='989753' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:39 PM']I got taught in quaters eights and sixteenths, most jazz players talk like this also on both sides of the pond.[/quote] Yes, my kids are learning that way. A quarter is a crotchet.

Yes. Big common problem. Get them to play pad chords or work with them to come up with something that works. Most keyboad/piano players are clasically trained and used to playing two parts. Less is more.

[quote name='TimR' post='989729' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:30 PM']... It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..[/quote] There are plenty of engineers who can strip and rebuild engines following the manual, but the best ones are those that have read the manual, understand how the engine works and can build a better one to fit your needs, and write a manual for it.

[quote name='skej21' post='989721' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:23 PM']Totally agree. That's why I urge my students to master as many areas as possible. There's a preconception that classical musicians can only read, and pop musicians can only busk, but as musicians we should master at LEAST both of these skills. I hate the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none", or "one trick pony"... Musicians shouldn't happily accept such stereotypes and should aspire (and be encouraged to aspire by their tutors) to master a range of fundamental skills, such as playing by ear/feel, reading, music theory and composition.[/quote] I see where you are coming from now. Your earlier post was badly worded. Basing course entry purely on classical gradings is bad but do you want to be on a course where people are being taught what a quarter note is during their first lesson? Its a filter process to make sure that the musicians reach a prerequisite. Pop music IS full of theory and if you are going to write it during the course and hand it in to be marked you're going to need to know a fair bit of theory. It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..

[quote name='risingson' post='989682' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:33 PM'].... the theoretical side of graded exams has no bearing on popular music as it stands whatsoever. ....[/quote] What do you base this observation on? What theory grade have you studied to?

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='989552' date='Oct 15 2010, 06:56 PM']In those cases the bassline was considered the melody,and if it's the original copyrighted recording that's sampled then that's another HUGE can of copyright worms.And totally off topic.[/quote] That's what I thought and it wasn't Queen who sued, it was Mercury, Taylor, Deacon, May, & Bowie who are all named as having the rights to the song. It was settled out of court and one of the early cases involving sampling. Which is where I was going really. As bass players are you being included in the writing credits? Does your band have a formal agreement? Do you think it's necessary?

[quote name='Delberthot' post='988739' date='Oct 15 2010, 01:48 AM']Geezer Butler wrote most, if not all, of the lyrics for Black Sabbath[/quote] Yes, I'm sure there are loads of examples. Neal Peart writes the lyrics for Rush. I would guess without googling that M*rk K*ing and Sting write a fair amount of their music too. It's not uncommon, most bands are performing music written by someone else, even if that person has never sung or recorded the song before. I think all the Spice Girls stuff was written by someone else but they insisted that they were all credited as well. A smart move! In one band I was in we had a friend who wasn't in the band who used to give us lyrics/poems that we would set to music. I'm just interested because in the cover band thread I few people were saying that they would rather perform their own material than someone else's. As I understand it only the lyrics and melody are copyrightable. If you're only coming up with a bass line are you actually performing your own material? Loz said his singer wrote the words which seemed like a cop out, but he's probably creating 90% of the song words and melody, even though someone else is coming up with riffs and chord structures. I'm wondering how you have all agreed to split the royalties and songwriting credits if you ever became famous. Bilbo, technically you're not in a band if you are writing stuff at home for yourself that never gets performed. Or do you have friends that come round and you just play to yourselves, which is still technically performing. Have you thought of giving the music to a band to perform.

In the case where everyone writes different parts do you keep a note of who has written what?

Ok so the Coverband thread is getting long and I think the point is getting missed. How many of you as bass players actually have any input into your originals band songs other than helping with the arrangement by coming up with a nice bass line. Pual McCartney is a good example of a good song writer who also played bass. It's not meant to be a contentious issue but I'm sure it will become one. Really I'm just interested.

[quote name='Bassassin' post='988145' date='Oct 14 2010, 03:48 PM']Like I said several (hundred) pages back - if you're a bassist in an originals band, nine times out of ten you'll be playing music that someone else has written anyway. It makes no difference beyond what you personally want & enjoy. J.[/quote] Well it couldn't have been more than 15 pages back - but it must seem like it. 2 new pages just today! You're absolutely right but Bilbo hinted at something else. Its not about us, we perform a supporting role. We don't write the music, we may have had an input into the arrangement by coming up with a bass line. BUT how many of us bass players ACTUALLY WRITE THE WORDS AND MELODY? I'm off to start a new thread.

[quote name='pablyth' post='987428' date='Oct 13 2010, 09:20 PM']... Every gig one of us stuck our head in the big martin bass bins to make sure they were working. ...[/quote] It's time as well as volume related. If you're only subjected for a short while it has less effect. Although night after night who knows?

If it has a Yellow Caution class II Laser sticker on it then it will be OK. If it has a Red Danger class n Laser sticker on it then run away. If it has no sticker on it run away even faster. The lasers linked to have a key switch on them which makes me think you should run away fairly quickly. Have a look at this [url="http://www.nu-light.co.uk/lasers/lsafety.htm"]http://www.nu-light.co.uk/lasers/lsafety.htm[/url]

A few pages of info here: [url="http://www.deafnessresearch.org.uk/1925/about-tinnitus/what-is-tinnitus.html"]Tinnitus - Deafness Research Org.[/url]

My tastes in music seem to change on a daily basis. I don't have any set preference for any particular tone. I tend to alter my tone to fit in with what and how the rest of the band are playing and what the room acoustics are like. Normally this tends to be limited to where I pluck or how I set the balance between the pickups. The graphic sorts the room tone. When I was 17 and playing in an originals band I was into Steve Harris, Billy Sheehan and Geedy Lee. For about 5 years it was roundwounds with just enough clack.

Yeah that Leddy King bloke who plays the long guitar with only four strings and can sing at the same time is awesome. He doesn't even use a pick. You should check out their 4224 album.

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='981641' date='Oct 8 2010, 02:45 PM']Say what you like about the monstrous record companies of yore but they acted as a fairly efficient sh*t filter. Now that every self-deluding spod and his mate has got garageband, the netz is an arse-flood of derivative, badly executed material with all the appeal of a nasty case of projectile leprosy. I'd be perfectly happy to see a revival of interest in 'Originals' if the output was any good. It isn't.[/quote] This is because the venues used to put the sh*t bands on during the week and had a bit of pride in who they would put on at the weekends. I'm wondering if now they'll just put anyone on who will draw a crowd. Which takes me back to my post about 5 days ago about the band I was in during the 80s. People came to see us because it was the place to be and not because we were good. Maybe it has always been the same, but we never got a big Friday or Saturday night, even though we packed out the Tuesday and Wednesday slots. Maybe even back then the clubs knew that their reputation counted on having good bands. I do go to see originals bands both on a weekdays and on Saturday and Sunday nights and the quality is variable. I wouldn't say that the music from the Saturday night bands is a lot better than the Weekday ones (better is a subjective term) but they are (generally) more proficient at producing and performing those songs. It's down to promotion, if a club/pub regularly promotes good quality originals and gets a good reputation for doing so they'll get good repeat business from people who would rather go and see cover band that risk a dodgy originals band. With less and less venues doing live music and people who have less time and money to go out seeking good music this has got to be the way to go. Why play in a covers band - audience numbers. BUT I am also happy to play on a weeknight to a half empty pub if the people are going to enjoy what I play. Playing covers will guarantee that. Orginals may not. I have and do play in originals bands but preferably to a receptive audience, which means that my filter is pretty high and I don't play just to play.