TimR

Have you had a decent x-ray?

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1503394332' post='3357793'] There exists a middle ground between proudly displaying statues in public parks and squares and having them smashed up by angry mobs. No longer doing the former does not imply that the latter is condoned. [/quote] Yes. Removing I don't have an issue with. Proudly displaying? I'm not sure. Destroying, I don't agree with. They're historical monuments regardless of any feeling.

[quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503392502' post='3357768'] Source, please. [/quote] http://www.historytoday.com/john-guy/sir-thomas-more-and-heretics

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503390092' post='3357719'] Not really. The intent of the person doing the act is important too. [/quote] The OP flying the confederate flag is not as bad as it is being suggested then. As there's no intent at all?

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503390457' post='3357729'] [/quote] I know art is subjective but that's just gruesome and should never have been erected in the first place irrespective of the good or bad deeds he did.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503389980' post='3357717'] So you'd be ok if Hitler statues had been left up? Or Pol Pot? Or Idi Amin? Unless you can see into the future you cannot claim that removing a statue of a murderer is an indication of "worse things to come" - that is hindsight based reductive nonsense. [/quote] Yes. I would. Smashing things up are what mobs do. It is an indication of how tribal people become in a group. It's not a civilised way to behave.

Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. It's what Henry VIII and ISIL are doing. It's what they did to Sadam Hussain's statue and it was an indication of the worse things to come. Maybe an amended plaque be put up on the statue with a fuller explanation. Although I'm aware that the truth doesn't figure highly in the US at the moment.

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1503377605' post='3357636'] how would an African-American feel if he was at your show and was confronted by that symbol of slavery (in his eyes).? It's not about what I think or you think of it, it is what those offended by it think. you may tell me a homophobic joke, I'm not offended by it, you're not offended by it, but someone overhears it in passing and is offended by it.Therefore it IS offensive. [/quote] Apparently nobody needs to actually take offence. It only has to be likely that someone would take offence if they heard it.

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503385181' post='3357669'] In fairness, the very next post used the US spelling of surprised (can't bring myself to repeat it!). [/quote] That's exactly why I thought it had been missed.

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1503344785' post='3357486'] Well... Dunning got it. Kruger got it too. I got it, and I honestly think most people got it. [/quote] I'm surprised more people didn't get it, it was fairly obvious. No one said anything.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503343281' post='3357464'] Why are you obsessed with The Sun? It sells abou 1.5 million copies per day. The adult population of the UK is about 63 million. It's not a useful comparator. And you may recall that when the Channel Tunnel opened the Times, telegraph, independent, even the daily mail ran stories about the amazing engineering feat and the layout of the tunnel. The Sun (presumably for their readership) limited their coverage to explaining which 2 countries it was between and how easy it would be to get cheap booze. [/quote] Well, here's the Telegraph take on it then. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11692452/Confederate-flag-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-controversial.html

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503342889' post='3357461'] It was me that said that. This is why your satire fails. Can and should are different. As stated, it needs plod to be made aware. [/quote] Maybe you can explain then, why aren't there people being locked up at the many American car shows that are regularly held. The cars are driven there with their flags and everything, they must be going on the public roads and passing police cars. I don't get it.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503340888' post='3357431'] I'm not having it both ways. Illegal things are still illegal even if the Police don't know the event is happening. Crimes are committed every second without plod knowing. Something being illegal and someone being convicted for it are not the same thing. You do realise that if a tree falls in a wood and there is no one to hear it - there is still a sound? [/quote] I think you have missed my attempt at satire there earlier. Someone ascertained that you can be arrested for putting a golly in your window... I'm just saying that if you can be arrested for a Golly, you should also be arrested for flying the flag. But never mind...

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503339952' post='3357413'] Please don't assume your lack of knowledge about a particular subject in any way mirrors the rest of the population. Of course it won't be as common knowledge as purely "British" events, but that doesn't mean that knowledge is rare. [/quote] I'll try not to, but the fact that the Sun feels it necessary to educate people on it, would kind of indicate it's not common knowledge. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3621818/confederate-flag-racist-banned/

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503340090' post='3357416'] Why would it have been bought to the attention of the police? [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Why was it bought to the police's attention? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Who would have complained?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]And Why?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]etc etc...[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Nice little u-turn there.[/font][/color] [/quote] Well. You can't have it both ways. It's either racist and illegal or it's not.

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503339493' post='3357405'] The context of the flag hasn't changed. It is seen as a racist symbol over here now. The only thing that has changed is the media coverage and the racist nature of it's symbolism in wider public consciousness. [/quote] Context is probably the wrong word but have people really been flying it over here and decorating their American cars with it as a display of White Supremacy? Did the OP use it in that context? If so why haven't the police been arresting them?

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503330615' post='3357318'] Told about it? Like a lesson? ... Why are you surprised that others might know about a subject that you are not interested in? ... [/quote] Because American history and the civil war seem to me to be specialist subjects and not general knowledge. In fact I'm convinced that up to 2015 most British people would say Dukes of Hazzard when asked about General Lee and if shown the flag would just say Americana. In fact the OP only found out about it by being 'told' via Facebook the other day and another poster only found out about it when his brother 'told' him he should be careful after buying one while he was in the states. i.e. up to very recently a lot of us had absolutely no knowledge of these things. It just wasn't general knowledge.

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503312472' post='3357037'] I'm pretty laid back myself unless some complete tool spells an English word with its US spelling. [/quote] I think that may have gone over a lot of people's heads. Very good. 10/10.

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1503328201' post='3357292'] Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society [/quote] Exactly.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503328040' post='3357288'] I'm confused. Are you slagging off Sun readers while at the same time saying they know more about history than you? [/quote] No. History is just remembering facts and stories. It doesn't require any intelligence. I'm not slagging anyone off, it's just a story that I'm not particilarly interested in, haven't read and haven't been told. Seems everyone, so far, on this thread has been told about it in some capacity or another. Don't see anyone who learned about it in school. We certainly didn't cover the American civil war. Most of what we learned was uk insutrial revolution and the war years.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327550' post='3357278'] You didn't. I did. Clearly from some of the other people who recommended books and the like, they did too. [/quote] Yes. And Sun readers.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503325321' post='3357248'] To the inventors of it. To those who displayed it while fighting for the right to keep slaves. To those who display it now, in 2017, while wearing White Power type t-shirts and carrying banners with similar slogans. By all means think of it as a cool bit of design (it is), but don't for a minute believe that it is anything other than a symbol of racism, and even if there are other meanings, the racist element overshadows every neutral or positive slant you might think (without you reading any actual books on the subject) you can apply to it. The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed. [/quote] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015?

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503323532' post='3357214'] Of course they are. That's how google works. And the confederate flag has been a hot topic recently. That doesn't mean for one second that the flag has only represented racism, slavery, subjugation, segregation etc for the last couple of weeks. It has represented that since the civil war! [/quote] To some people.

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503321832' post='3357189'] Nonsense? Like this, that was only dropped because plod couldn't prove who put it in the window? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-15429369 [/quote] Why was it bought to the police's attention? Who complained? And Why? The article is very scant on details of the neighbours relationship leading up to the event.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503321760' post='3357184'] Tim 'googled it' R [/quote] Indeed. It doesn't take long to type confederate flag into Google and the first few hits are all from the last few days about various people taking down or refusing to take down the flags. Which don't seem to have been an issue up to now.