TimR

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1487923622' post='3244107'] My audition for a ceilidh band consisted of turning up to a gig and playing (they did ask me to). No chord chart, just got told the key for each tune, and not only was it a genre I'd never played before, I'd never heard any of the tunes before either. They decided to keep me. However, the rock covers band I've just joined is of the same mind that I am - get the songs polished with me in, get gigging (target is 20-30 gigs a year), rehearse if there are things wrong and to bring new material in. steantval said 45 songs seems like overkill. My covers band that has just folded had around 50 songs, and we wanted to increase that a little more. It means we could choose the 25-30 songs we fancied doing for that gig, rather than (like a club band I used to be with) playing an identical set at every gig for over ten years. [/quote] Function bands are a different kettle of fish entirely. I used to have a pad of 100+ tunes that we could call on depending on the audience demographic. Pub Rock, I have memorised about 50 fairly basic, mostly 3 chord wonders. There are a few that needed some rehearsing to get to a good standard but I think if we had put our minds to it we could have learned 3 songs to gig standard in one rehearsal. The problem is getting everyone to put their minds to it. In previous bands it's easier if the client has requested a specific tune, it focuses the whole band, although usually we would read the music for a one off and do a couple of run throughs at sound check. .

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1487881606' post='3243913'] but that's not really about rehearsing or not... I don't expect you are a telepath! If you're not even told exactly what it is that you'r supposed to be playing you cannot really rehearse it either. What you're doing is preparing to increase your chances at guessing right on the day. And that, while it can be fun, is not a serious way to operate. [/quote] You should play some jazz gigs. I've played gigs where I've never heard the tune before. Chord chart, watch, listen and pray.

Many people just like the idea of being in a band. They're not actually interested in gigging. These are the bands that just rehearse and always find something not quite right. They'll say they want to gig and discuss endlessly how to get them but no one ever goes out and gets one. I've learned to spot them quickly avoid them now. I suppose there's the opposite end of the spectrum where no one wants to practice and only want to gig. I've depped in bands like that, it's a bit disconcerting when they don't even provide you with a set list to prepare for, there's no way they're going to meet up beforehand to run through the set. "It's all standards, you'll be fine."... I guess if that's not for you then move on. I'm not playing with drummers who "play like it's the last time they're going to get their leg over" either.

You have the perfect scenario then.

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1487768178' post='3242592'] Happy to rehearse if there's something that needs sorting. In that situation I want to see a proper plan for the session and it needs to be focused and productive. Rehearsal on a weekly basis is, in my experience, rarely beneficial. If drummer and bass player are good then being tight should be possible after very limited time together. If you have to rehearse week in week out to get tight then there's a limiting factor at play somewhere. [/quote] I ageee. If you're playing gigs regularly, rehearsals aren't necessary and if you're not gigging regularly then targeted rehearsals on the lead up to gigs are beneficial. There's a balance. I'd also call a rehearsal if a number of tunes that you've been playing for a long time start to fall apart. Sometimes parts of tunes just disappear from your memory for no real reason and get replaced with something that doesn't quite work. Then you're in a situation where everyone on the band starts questioning what they're playing and the trainwreck occurs. If the same tune train wrecks in the same place twice then it's time for a rehearsal.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1487730452' post='3242273'] All bands are different. We have a band leader, so there's no " we suggest " option. The BL picks what songs we play and the version. Makes life a lot easier. Blue [/quote] Is your band leader the singer? I can't see any band working unless the singer has a big say in the songs. However, the B/L and singer need to have a very close understanding of exactly what direction the band is going in. I'm not sure that our singer asked exactly the right question when he joined the band, and seems to want to pull in a different direction to the rest of us. Which does keep it fairly fresh and away from 'the usual suspects' when it comes to song choices but it can become a chore choosing new songs. Although, he was already there when I joined. Like you, I just turn up and play and make the odd suggestions, whether or not they're taken on board doesn't bother me as long as the leader has an idea of direction. It does make suggesting songs that will work a lot easier.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1487695261' post='3241923'] In my case the alternative versions were by the same band but the album versions that they played had whole extra sections with completely different chords that never appeared anywhere in the single version that I had learnt. [/quote] Ha. Yes. What's the point in that? Our singer is a bit odd when it comes to that sort of thing. We suggest a well known song by an artist, he'll then say no, he prefers X obscure version or some completely different tune by the same artist form an obscure album that no one will ever have heard before. It's hard work. Just choose a well known song. Learn it. Play it. It's not rocket science.

No. Learn the verse, chorus and midsection and listen to the vocals!

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1487678759' post='3241716'] Lots of people see a band rehearsal as being the time to learn the song. I know a lot of people see it as a social event too. The most recent band I played for that rehearsed was for a NYE gig at a racetrack. We were all given our individual parts weeks in advance. We were expected to learn them at home, the practice was just basically to make sure that everything worked, which is what a rehearsal in my mind is for. [/quote] Yes. Practice at home rehearse with band. A band practice is where you pick parts of a song to work on because the arrangement isn't falling into place.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487675352' post='3241676'] It's interesting that we see a lot of comments about people not wanting to play in a covers band from those that have never tried mainly, the presumption is that once you have nailed Brown Eyed Girl you are all set and there's no skill or challenge to be had but in reality and especially for dep players there's keys,tempos, syncopation, stops and starts, nods and winks going on to keep you busy, the best players do it without looking troubled at all maybe with nothing more than an email a few days before the gig, I know dep players that would do a better job of my regular gig unrehearsed. [/quote] I think there are a lot of musicians who get extremely anal about copying a tune exactly. If you're learning a new tune there is a lot of production junk in modern music. The skill lies in being experienced enough to know what is junk and what is a key part of the tune. Nailing runs that are synchronised with a drummer are nice to have. I'd never spend hours learning one without having heard what the drummer is going to do as the chances are he's not going to have nailed it (unless he is one of those anal types). Again I've spent too long in bands where getting the song exactly as per the original has mattered more than getting the song sounding good.

Yes. I've been in too many bands that don't have a plan when you walk into the rehearsal room and don't even have a plan for the next rehearsal when the leave the room. That's a waste of time. You only get tight by gigging but you all need to be confident walking out on stage knowing you know what's happening. So there's a balance to be had.

I'd make a list of all the songs and take it to the next gig. Every time you get through a song and are happy then cross it off, any song you're unhappy with put a mark next to it. Go home practice the songs you've marked and work out whether you know them or whether the band are doing something odd. With a new band I wouldn't be happy until I'd played each song four or five times with them. Whether rehearsing or on the fly at a gig.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487540471' post='3240682'] Who said eating pub nuts would do you any harm ? [/quote] It was in the Daily Mail. But yeah, ok. Sorry mate, didn't realise they were for regulars only. .

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487530908' post='3240524'] There's a queue , mate. Also, dont touch the nuts in a bowl on the bar. [/quote] Get out you youngster. I've been eating snacks off the bar all my life and it never did me any harm. All that new fangled scientific analysis. Poke it.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1487446679' post='3239917'] There are a couple of interesting points here, and it's true Basschat is largely composed of men of a certain age range. Partly this may be because that's who are drawn to the site, but any concerted effort to bring a more diverse range of people here would feel a bit contrived. I reckon we could do better at not making people outside of the usual demographic feel uncomfortable though. I'm thinking of things like the time when it was quite reasonably suggested that incessant knob jokes were perhaps not the best way for middle aged guys to interact with women closer to their kids' age, and people didn't seem willing to take that on board. [/quote] Also we don't use text speak here so it pretty much is a non starter with anyone who can't spell or use proper grammar. I was on a forum where it was rigidly enforced. Kids lasted about 10 posts before they'd had enough.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1487439088' post='3239842'] of course give that the definition of Bigot is, and I copy and paste, 'a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions' means if you call somebody a bigot you are in fact a bigot [/quote] No. It's perfectly possible to tolerate bigotry. Calling someone a bigot doesn't mean you can't tolerate them being one. .

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1487437650' post='3239830'] How many points do I get for 'hand-wringing, do-gooder SJW liberals'? Quite a lot, I would have thought. [/quote] You have already won the internet several times over.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487428979' post='3239733'] On the button Skank Thats because of the festeringly annoying F%55%ing PC brigade that now infiltrate every aspect / permeate everyone's lives. I don't care what colour, sex or creed they are. But they're out there in all forms, trying to correct the most miniscule aspects in life, to be right & fair. Life will never be those things. Ever. [/quote] Full points for the use of 'PC brigade' there.

Good luck. Come and join us on the 'Long Distance Running' thread. Alghough we've been a bit quiet lately. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/184991-long-distance-running/page__st__810#

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1487349420' post='3239224'] we seem to be mixing up a whole load of different issues and ideas here. Positive discrimination feels wrong, because it's making people select people for jobs, college places, whatever, based on a selection criteria that is not to do with being the best applicant. But it's sometimes a necessary evil when there are issues of institutional racism/sexism/ageism. The fictional example from Mikel is actually a good one to pick apart. The reason that the male applicant is deemed to be better than the female one is based on a range of factors, one of which is experience. How is that relevant for the job? It's immediately discriminatory on the grounds of age - 50 year olds will have more experience than 25 year olds. If it's an industry in which women are chronically under represented then it's very likely that male applicants will have more experience than females so it adds the question of whether it's sexist. So to just demand "experience" with no context can be ageist and sexist, and becomes a barrier to entry. If however it's "experience of doing X, Y & Z because they will be a core part of doing the job" then it's completely reasonable to demand it. And worse than this, we don't realise we're doing it. We are a species of very limited imagination. We think that we are brilliant at our jobs, so we think that anybody like us will be brilliant at the job we are hiring for. We've got twenty years experience in the industry so clearly people with 20 years in the industry will be better than people with only five years in the industry. This is exactly why company boards are full of middle aged white men, because middle aged white men who make the appointments think that middle aged white men are brilliant at running companies. And there's this: [url="https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover"]https://www.theguard...ment-undercover[/url] it's a few years old but it's a perennial chestnut that the media will update every few years - I recall seeing something very similar in the last couple of months. Add to this that studies have shown that diverse companies, the ones whose boards aren't full of middle aged white men, perform much better. Diversity of age sex and ethnicity isn't just token, it brings diversity of thinking and companies who embrace this tend to do better. Maybe Mikel needs to think about appointing the woman because it's time for some fresh ideas that yet another middle aged white man isn't going to bring. [/quote] Indeed. We don't realise we're doing it. It's the way we've always done it. It's the right way to do it and the way things should be done. Anyone who says any different is some kind of lefty or feminist etc Yep. That's bigotry right there.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1487347245' post='3239198'] The 'reason' only one woman applied (in this hypothetical situation) is because it was constructed as a hypothesis. So the reason there is only one woman is obviously [i]not[/i] 'down to inbuilt sexism and what we see as norms in society' but because the situation was described that way*. I would suggest that your frankly disconcerting inability to spot the difference between a hypothetical and a real world situation is because you were pleasurably distracted by the opportunity to trot out the 'approved' answer, i.e. 'Inbuilt sexism and societal norms must be challenged'. An un-focussed platitude of this nature would be understandable if coming from a crafty young lad intent upon ingratiating himself into a feminazi's pants but quite unfathomable when the proponent and his audience alike are (with a few exceptions) flabby old men. More to the point, Tim, there are about 29,997 men and three women on BassChat. What are [i]you[/i] doing to encourage more female members? Because, trust me, ponderously man-splaining about 'sexism' isn't going to have the chickies storming the turnstiles crying 'Whoa, that TimR, I wants me a piece of [i]his [/i]ass'. * [size=2]Addendum: It now seems there may have been [u]two[/u] hypothetical women although I must admit the possibility that one or both of them may have been a hypothetical man [i]identifying[/i] as a hypothetical woman. Anyway, let us not be judgemental. Time's a-wasting and there are norms to be challenged in the top meadow.[/size] [color=#faebd7][size=2].[/size][/color] [/quote] Brilliant as usual. Possibly coloured by spending too much time working at the BBC. .

Again. I'm not talking about forcing people to chose in order to balance statistics. It's the other way around. You use statistics to see is there is a balance. Then you delve further into the results. As Daz says. The real question is why has only one woman applied? And that is more likely down to inbuilt sexism and what we see as norms in society. The only way to change it is to challenge it and ask people to question why they think that way.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487329834' post='3238983'] What, except you? Probably because you are so much cleverer than we are. Why don't I wear a skirt on a regular basis? Because I don't like having cold legs, or having to keep my legs crossed, for modesty, every time I sit down. That's why. I have worn the kilt, for weddings, as I can wear the the Northumberland tartan. For everyday use I would find it irritating. What you fail to understand is that males and females are different. We think and act differently. Not better or worse, just different. Many learned papers have been produced trying to understand why, and failed. Perhaps its simply human nature. Humans are massively complex and elusive, it must drive statisticians bonkers that they cant put us tidily into any box. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Oh, and there are loads of covers bands round here with female members. We have two female singers in our band. My mate is the drummer in an otherwise all female band. [/quote] Males and females are not that different. Hormones drive the way we feel and act and so certain activities will gain more men and some will gain more women. However that doesn't go anywhere close to why activities that neither sex have an advantage in are prodominatly one sex. The current record holder for the double Bob Graham round is a woman. Women are better at long distance endurance events than men and yet there are more men involved. Why are there so few women racing drivers or footballers when they're much better than men? How do you explain ethnic minorities then?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487328072' post='3238957'] That's my point, as long as she's allowed to why does it matter? [/quote] Because young girls are underrepresented in engineering. Which means that more young girls who would like to do engineering are put off because it's a job done by 'hairy arsed blokes', even though they'd quite like to do it, which means they continue to be underrepresented and the circle continues. A young girl who goes into heavy engineering is considered 'odd'. Societal pressure. Engineering is a good example but MOBO is effectively doing the same as a TV advert featuring only young girls does for engineering. .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487327060' post='3238943'] If one is a factory making welded metal products and the other is a telesales business they are unlikely to have staff from similar groups, as long as a middle class girl isn't turned away from applying to be a welder and a hairy arsed bloke is allowed to work in the office I don't have a problem with it, as Skank says making a young girl be a welder just to massage the figures would be wrong. [/quote] Making anyone do something they don't want to do is wrong. Why doesn't the young girl want to be a welder?