risingson

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1322744742' post='1455189'] Cold muscles need stretching, then gentle warm up, [b]not strenuous exercise[/b]. [/quote] Read my posts more carefully and you'll note that I didn't imply this at any stage.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322739071' post='1455055'] OK. Leaving aside the device itself for a moment, let us talk about "grip" and how it relates ( or more to the point..does [b]not[/b] ) to bass playing. You, as a seasoned experienced bassist will know that a key aspect to good technique is keeping both hands relaxed. Beginners often make the mistake of holding the neck of the bass in a death grip. This not only hampers their playing, but can possibly lead to physical problems later on. The advice always given by teachers is to always have both hands as relaxed as possible. With all this in mind, maybe you could explain the benefits from a bass playing aspect, of building up gripping strength, regardless of whether the gripping device is adjustable or not. [/quote] With respect, I do believe you're missing the point. These things don't have to dictate grip at all. If these grippy contraptions are getting blood pumping to the muscles in the hands, which they inevitably will be, then it is one step closer to having hands that will perform to a higher level after periods of little to no bass playing activity. Used in conjunction with more regular styles of warming up, I don't see the harm in using them. I wouldn't recommend them to beginner bass players. The adjustability of them does make a difference and shouldn't be discounted... I would agree that using them on maximum resistance would be a fruitless endeavour, comparable to your suggestion before of a runner training with high weights and low rep.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322733246' post='1454931'] I respect, but disagree with your opinion on grip devices. While I'm sure they do warm up the hands, they do so by exercising the muscles and tendons that will not be required in fretting or plucking. Would you not agree that it would be better to warm up by exercising the parts of the hand that will be used ? These devices build [b]strength, [/b]when stamina and agility is what is needed. It is similar to an 100 meter sprinter warming up by lifting heavy weights like a weight lifter does. Sure, he/she will warm up this way, but wont be using what's required when sprinting. [/quote] The heavy weightlifting thing doesn't quite add up because most of these grip masters are adjustable in this respect. And I would agree that using a grip machine this way would soon become a totally redundant exercise and a waste of time. But you don't have to be exerting your full energy into using them, they are adjustable. I don't think there are any substitutes for having both good technique and a good warmup regime, but I see no reason to use other means of warming up your hands rather than just playing scales etc. if the results translate.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1322690477' post='1454670'] Sorry to say, but they dont do the job in the least. These grip master gadgets, while they may have their uses elsewhere, for playing bass, they are a waste of time and money IMO. Why ? Because they develop the hand to do the [b]opposite[/b] of what is required to fret a string. Minimal strength is required to fret a string. This strength is in all healthy people from an early age. Dexterity and stamina is what is needed. To do this, the tendons that [b]open [/b]the hand, i.e. lift them from one note to the next, without them getting in one an other's way, is what needs to be worked on. By gripping, you are developing muscles or tendons that are not required. [/quote] I totally disagree. I'm a regular gigging and recording musician, and am well aware of what I need to use to warm up before I play. Often it's a case in the winter months of donning a pair of gloves for the long journey in the cold van so when we arrive and have loaded in to our respective venue, I've got warm hands. You said it yourself: the muscle groups in your hands and wrists need warming up, and whilst there is a hell of a lot to be said for taking 10 minutes out before you start playing by blasting through your scales and arpeggios, sometimes if this hasn't been possible for whatever reason I've found those grippy things to be useful in warming up before I play. It has nothing to do with how hard or soft you play, I have my bass set up so that I can put in the most minimal amount of effort to get out the biggest sound, that's how I like it. But those grip masters categorically do warm up your major muscle groups in your hands. I'm not saying use these contraptions in isolation. It's best to have a good spread of exercises as go to options, but they certainly help and if the average player wishes to use them in this way then I don't see the problem, providing you're using them in the right way. I would add that is totally mad to dismiss exercises that seem in any way 'non-musical' on the bass. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think beginners should be taught the importance of exercising in musical ways so as to develop a good sense of how their instrument should be played as well as learning their notes on their fingerboard, but I know for certain that I often find myself playing very 'un-musical' things as a means of warming up. in conjunction with very musical warm-ups.

I think Coilte hit the nail on the head. Although I'm not familiar with the elastic band warmup exercise, there are practical ways in which you can warm up the muscles of your hands without actually playing your instrument. Those grip master things look silly but they certainly do the job. Also our guitarist who suffers from psoriatic arthritis (a young lad) likes to use one of those 'powerball' things before a performance. I thought of it as a bit of a placebo at first but after a few goes I would say it does the job.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1322675259' post='1454379'] Why did you deliberately edit out the bit where I state that [i]"I certainly don't wish to imply that I think people who can read, write & understand are somehow superior; that's not what I think at all".[/i] I don't think it's any less valid either, that's why I originally said the bit I just repeated. [/quote] That's why I said that I understood what you were saying with the '[i]I certainly don't wish to imply...[/i]' part, but perhaps I should have made this clearer! But you did say that you don't consider someone who doesn't read or understand theory a musician, unless I misread. That part we don't agree on EDIT - amended my last post, hope this is clearer.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1322673894' post='1454345'] I'd call them musicians because THEY UNDERSTAND MUSIC. Somebody could play an instrument & come up with perfectly good songs but not understand what they're doing in relation to the theoretical side, and also not be able to write it down in notation - I personally would not call them musicians even though they may be excellent at what they do. Probably 80% of the people I listen to would fall into this category. I certainly don't wish to imply that I think people who can read, write & understand are somehow superior; that's not what I think at all. [/quote] I understand your point, but I don't agree. There have been hundreds of years worth of of music passed down the years through aural tradition. This kind of musicianship is no less valid than the kind of musicianship that encompasses theory and reading, it's just that some schools of thought would have you believe this. There's no standardisation of music, just a lot of different kinds. I'd compare it to arguing that someone who is unable to write is therefore incapable of communication.

No but I've seen many quality turntablists in my time. Jazzy Jeff played in Liverpool a few years ago, and he was amazing. The guys that ran the club night always had an after party, which Jeff came back to this particular evening. As he was leaving the next day to go back to the airport, he declared that he'd had such a good night, would there be any else he could do before he left... so the guys had him filmed being thrown out of their front door a la 'Fresh Prince Uncle Phil' style!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8iHcJwiJys

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1322602263' post='1453490'] Question for you synth players - do you find lots of situations where you have to play parts with two hands, I mean use the left hand too? Or is left hand more 'dedicated' to just switching octaves and messing with pitch most of the times? In other words is it ok to do the shedding on synth with just right hand, or do I want to shed the left hand as well? easy Laimis [/quote] I don't think it matters, there are no set rules. I play almost exclusively with my right hand and do all the pitch bend and modulation wheel messing with my left. I think being adaptable with both has its merits, and if you're coming from a piano/keys background you're going to be just as adaptive with your left because you'll have spent you're whole life playing bass parts with your left hand.

I think the biggest thing is that people can buy what they want if they think it's worth it, it is after all your money and if you want make an investment in an instrument that is worth in excess of £2000 and can afford to do so then do it! So long as you enjoy playing it and suits what you do then it doesn't matter if the bass costs £100 or £100,000. Personally, I don't have that kind of money, but if I did have some cash for a new bass, I'd probably go out and buy a Sadowsky. I've played a few and they very much suit the kind of bass player I am. Equally I wouldn't care if someone said I could only ever play my Lakland for the rest of my life. It does everything I want it to do and it gets the job done... I also think it's a marvelous instrument. People put too much emphasis on how much basses cost. Past a certain price point, things get incredibly subjective.

To return to the OP, I've always thought that any bass is worth it if the person buying it is happy to pay the price tag, providing the fit and finish of the bass is really remarkable and the customer service between you and the company you've bought from is nothing short of incredibly comprehensive. People put too fine a point on how much a bass costs though. I would agree that an instrument worth in excess of £2000+ should be flawless, but as a bass player who plays instruments that cost a lot less, I can still get my job done either way. My desire is to own a Sadowsky, but I suspect this has more to do with what I want rather than what I need, and my Lakland that costs under half that of the bass I wish to own one day does just a fine job... better than fine in fact, I'm extremely happy with it.

For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder God Only Knows - Beach Boys Kid Charlemagne - Steely Dan There are tens of thousands I could choose though!

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1322318247' post='1449329'] Far from livening up a debate, that kind of 'repartee' actually [b]closes[/b] debate. [/quote] I agree, or at least it certainly closes the doors to reasonable debate anyway.

Greg Phillinganes is probably the only person to look to for inspiration on how to make synth bass sound good, I include him before even Stevie Wonder!

[quote name='daz' timestamp='1322257956' post='1448804'] You did a 9 on Talkbass ?!! A [b]nine[/b]!!! How did you stand the Cliques and all the [i]my Sadowski is better than your custom shop Fender, [/i]and the, [i] Nothing cheap is any good. S[/i]nobbery and guff ?? [/quote] THAT'S why I like this forum. People aren't arsed (not everyone, anyway) about the price of gear, the general consensus a lot of the time is that if it's good, it's good, if it's not, then someone else can buy it, each to their own etc. The amount of b*llocks talked about gear at Talkbass is unreal, discussing the idiosyncrasies of two of the same amps with slightly different cabinets to the point of total pedantry, like it matters more than life itself. Gear bothers me, but to nowhere near the same extent, and that's certainly one of the reasons I like Basschat.

Lovely looking instrument, really love that worn in look and yes, if I had any cash I'd probably take a punt because I've wanted a ray for a while!

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1322231463' post='1448321'] Fair comments, especially the last point. [b]However, as a solo instrument, the bass is pretty damn ugly, the timbre is terrible, the definition beyond playing 8th notes is crap, unless you have lots of treble and avoid the lower notes.[/b] That's why some folks are adding strings, playing chords and tapping with two hands, adding treble and chorus, just so their bass playing can sound more like a regular guitar. There are people who like to eat fermented whale blubber for breakfast, but they are few and far between. [/quote] I largely agree with your views but this part entirely depends on two things; how good your sound is, and how good a player you are. If you're a decent player with your timing together then definition and 16th notes aren't a problem. It is incredibly rare for me to come across a bass solo I enjoy, but when I do, I understand that the reason I'm enjoying it is because I respect what the bass player in question is playing from a musical point of view. Most other people who aren't musicians just don't want to see it or don't understand it.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322239562' post='1448521'] <enter stock photo of the Osmonds/Jackson 5/Kings of Leon here> [/quote] Would it surprise you to learn that you're not the first person to make this comparison It's not nearly as weird as that. We all fight, but equally we all work towards the same goals. We're not really brothers in that sense either, just very good friends. It's also worth noting that whilst we were brought up listening to a lot of different music, we don't come from an inherently 'musical' family, and none of our parents played instruments to any great standard. I am of the belief that had our parents applied themselves to learning a musical instrument then they probably would have been very good musicians themselves.

I should probably add at this stage that my older sister is a great guitarist and bass player, the the rest of my band are four brothers... and they're my cousins as well. Without blowing my (our??) own trumpet, we can all play, so I think there is something to be said for creativity to be found in families.

I believe you can be born with a more creative mind, but I think (as has already been mentioned) it is more likely that creativity is the result of being born into a creative environment. Musical talent is mostly about how we choose to use our ears though, so in this sense it must be a conscious choice in our infancy to elect to use our inherent ability to judge pitch and rhythm, and then to further apply it to our chosen instrument or voice.

[quote name='Huwberry' timestamp='1322145161' post='1447173'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liSajGcq68U[/media] New one this afternoon. Not perfect IMO, but I don't want to place the emphasis on technicality. [/quote] Always liked your playing Huw, you've got a really great feel for your instrument.

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1322067786' post='1446157'] He is a handsome bastard. When he came round to mine I was in two minds whether or not to kidnapp him and keep him as my kept boy. [/quote] Oh Steve, you old charmer you!

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1322089025' post='1446515'] Yes, it's the anonymous negging of Pete's post that is anti-social and objectionable. [/quote] Which definitely serves to highlight my main qualm about the reputation system; if you object to a post or poster, surely it's better to confront the issues raised with reasoned debate rather than click the red 'down' button. It's really silly, if this is meant to be a forum, don't offer the ones who don't want to participate properly by giving them the ability to damn a post with one click.

Me at a recent gig in Sweden: [attachment=93700:312154_10150420287641117_515441116_10495421_348738870_n.jpg] And me with my wonderful girlfriend, who keeps me sane and happy! [attachment=93701:180859_10150134188501117_515441116_8295079_1752531_a.jpg]