Hector

Hi gypsyjazzer. Bit of a rambling reply, hope some of it's on the money. Your question is an interesting one. You're talking about playing "outside", which means using notes that do not belong to the key/chord of the movement. This a common technique amongst jazz pros, and is very effective when used with taste. For example, something Mike Brecker would do (I suspect he got this from Woody Shaw) is over a minor chord, say C-7, he would play Cm pentatonic licks and slip into F# min pentatonic, then back into Cm pentatonic. This creates a nice sense of movement over a static chord, and has a great modern sound. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FcVhTrvDXM The thing is though, your outside playing is only as good as your inside playing. You need to play out from somewhere, and you need to come back to somewhere. Yes, over changes you can technically play anything (Listen to Ornette's jaw-droppingly beautiful solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XGd9tG-30) but really there must be some logic to what you're doing. Patterns are good, our brains like patterns and will tolerate a huge amount of dissonance if it is systematic in some detectable way. Most jazz is rooted in the tradition and is comprised of idiomatic musical language. People build on it, but you must build on this foundation. There are idiomatic ways of adding non-diatonic notes to your improvisation, whether it be adding altered tensions to a V chord, or chromatically approaching chord tones. In my opinion, there are two major approaches to jazz soloing (bit of a false dichotomy, but meh) chord-based, or key-based. Chord based soloing is very bebop - you emphasise chord tones, and place them on strong beats using chromatic notes in a systematic manner. Key soloing you play the key of the moment, and are less literal with the chord changes (e.g. playing Bb blues scale over all of a Bb jazz blues). You need a strong sense of melody to do this, and in a way what you play does relate back to the chords of the moment. This can be also thought of as a modal (scalar) approach, and Miles was the alpha and omega of this as far as I'm concerned. You end up playing lots of upper structures over certain chords. Most decent jazzers will take a mix of chord and key approach, and even better ones still won't even think in these terms. You must be fluent in both styles, and absorb through transcription ways that past masters have played over changes using both techniques (or a mixture!). To speak the tradition, you must learn the language from transcription, not just to get the notes but the phrasing. For example, the b3 in the blues scale is often bent slightly sharp. You don't get that in written transcriptions. Getting the hang of playing very inside will eventually give you the freedom to step outside at will. I've heard it likened to taking a journey. When you first live in a new city, you take specific routes between new places. But eventually you have a spatial understanding that transcends simple learned routes, and you're able to mix and match how you travel through the city. You could walk anywhere, but it is still rooted in your understanding of normal routes. So far I have been talking about soloing, but walking is much the same. There is a basic formula for creating good sounding walking bass lines that clearly outline the harmony. This is a very chord-based approach. I would recommend getting very fluent in this style before approaching a more modal way of thinking. Up tempo soloing is a pig to be sure (especially on DB). My recommendation would be to think slooooow. Play simple melodies in the key of the moment, try to outline chord movements where you can but don't fuss about getting them all, and thinking in larger chunks of harmony than individual chords.

Looks lovely! I like mine so much that I'm actually pretty excited on your behalf. You were dead right about that burst working with the black pg too. I tried to convince Sander to come over to London for the show this year, but he didn't in the end. Maybe you'll have more luck

Just bought Mike's Zoom H4n handheld recorder. Great BC'er to buy from, communicative and friendly. It arrived as quick as humanly possible, and in great condition. Cheers Mike!

Hi Flamencito. Just a heads up to say that I thoroughly recommend my setup (although things work differently for each individual bass): Zyex G with Helicore Hybrids EAD (all medium tension). I find there's a pretty consistent sound and feel across the strings, and they're decent under the bow. I think you'll be pleased with the Zyex

Hi Karl. There are tonnes of ways to do this. I would experiment with looping those descending chords (on iReal B or whatever) and playing around over them. Do it really slowly at first, and focus on the key chord tones - R, 3 and 5. Be creative and explore how many different ways there are to get through these sorts of movements. A good idea is to play beats 1 and 3 as chord tones, and beats 2 and 4 as approaches to the next chord tone. For example, you could approach each chord from it's 5th: G Db Gb C F B E Bb (Db is the 5th of Gb7, C is the 5th of F-7 etc) Or you could aim for the thirds of chords: G A Bb Gb F Bb G# E (Bb is the 3rd of Gb7, approached from a semtione below, G# is the 3rd of E7, approached from a tone above) Another useful idea is to listen to what the pros do - pop on a few versions of Autumn Leaves (or any tune with chromatically descending chords) and try to transcribe their lines over those bits. Make sure you transpose your lines to all keys! These changes are an example of a [i]tritone substitution[/i]. Gb7 is a tritone substitution for C7 and E7 is a substitute for Bb7. So you can can actually just play G-7 C7 F-7 Bb7, which gives you another option. Ideally you'd want to be able to choose which of those you play. Also it helps to change that last Am7b5 to an Ebmaj7, then you have a progression G-7 C7 F-7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 (this is a 3 6 2 5 1, classic progression). Hope that's helpful! Let me know how you get on, happy to chat more about walking either on here or via PM

[quote name='philparker' timestamp='1433872092' post='2794753'] I wouldn't necessarily buy a classical DB album [/quote] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdwE2x_WjTg

Congrats! My main bass is a bebop 5 in exactly the same spec, and it's an incredible instrument. I still grin every time I pick it up

Hiya Limlighters. Loving seeing all these new instruments coming up! Trying to get my P set up the way I like it - bit too much effort to play at the moment, not sure if it's the action or the flats it's got on. Decided to try lowering the action a bit, but am having trouble with the rusted bridge. Can't seem to move the saddle screws at all.... Anyone got any tips, or is a replacement needed?

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"Another one they like is when I play a short phrase on my bass without them looking, and then they have to reproduce the phrase on their bass and also tell me in what key it is."[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Not sure I get this? What if you don't use all 7 notes in a phrase?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]E.g the notes FAC could be in a few keys - F maj, C maj, Bb maj [/font][/color]

Hi all. I'm moving to a block of flats in a few months. I'm a bit worried about getting less opportunity to shed. Mostly because of complaining neighbours being a possibility - I'll be working a bit more, so might have to scrape together time when I can. I was wondering if anyone had some advice on how to manage it? Three possible routes:. 1. Making my bass quieter acoustically? 2. Getting an EUB for silent practice. (This would need to feel as much like an actual DB as possible, in order to make any shedding on it worthwhile. Maybe less preferrable, as there might be some things about acoustic tone production lost when playing EUB with headphones?). 3. Finding another practice space - not hugely time efficient unless it was somewhere close to home/work. Beyond that, I suppose there's talking to the neighbours and trying to arrange set times of day where they allow a bit of noise?

No problemo dude! By the way, that line over a dominant chord E G Bb D (3 R b7 9) is played in the video linked as dropping down to the 5 before coming back up. That general pattern can be used off any chord tone for a reeeeeeally boppy sound, and can be used both dropping down to the second note and playing up, as well as just playing straight up. It's just stacking chord tones + extensions in thirds off a given starting chord tone. Usually the next note following the lick is the chord tone below the note you just landed on. So for C dominant sound, that pattern off every chord tone: From 3rd: E G Bb D (3 5 b7 9) From 5th: G Bb D F (5 b7 9 11) From 7th: Bb D F A (b7 9 11 13) (This is pretty much the honeysuckle rose lick, if you chuck a C at the front) Here's a monster line incorporating this concept (without dropping down to the second note). One of my favourite warm ups! http://jazztrumpetlicks.com/2009/04/this-bebop-scale-exercise-will-help-develop-your-improv-jazz-skills/

Lads, was shedding these recently and found I had [b]more [/b]typos in my original post! Urgh. Instead of what was written, pattern 3 for major should be: E G B D The same pattern for dominant is: E G Bb D I'll edit my original post since this is one of the google hits when searching "54321 barry harris", but putting this so that you're aware. Will also whip off some PMs in case you miss this thread. I'll also try to remember to dig up that brownie transcription for you.

Interesting stuff at play here about the nature of memory, we're fascinating machines aren't we? I should apologise for the slight derailment if it's of no interest to anyone else. You might [i]learn [/i]them in relation to something else (e.g Eb is 2 frets and 1 string away from C) and/or in a specific context (Eb is the minor 3rd of C), but that doesn't necessarily mean that you only [i]know[/i] them in that way. I guess I mean that I'm not certain I agree with Anthony's assumption that if you learn the notes by a particular method, that you only have to use that method to recall them. Sure it'd be slower to recall if you had to go through the whole process, but over time might you not need the process itself as you build up familiarity? As an analogy, as a toddler you might have to go through your 7 times table to work out that 5x7 = 35 (i.e. doing 1x7, 2x7), but eventually you will just know that 5x7 = 35 without having to do all the intermediate steps. Anyway, I'll stop waffling. Regardless of the (slightly irrelevant) academic side of things, if it will potentially help then I'm all for it. Especially as it wouldn't take long at the start of a practise session. I just tried it at 75 bpm (metronome there from last time I used it), and coped fine but I reckon I might struggle when upping the tempo!

There's the question of the exercise itself and what the exercise teaches you. I'm not questioning the value of fretboard knowledge or knowing note names (who would?). What I'm questioning is how this particular note finder exercise is a better route to this knowledge than just learning your scales? For example, fingerboard geometry helps with learning scales arps etc. but saying the note names as you play (or in general being aware of note names as you use patterns) will also give you this kind of understanding of the fingerboard in terms of note names. But you're also placing this information in context, rather than taking it in via an exercise which is some distance from how you want to use it. In short, does it help or hinder to learn note names outside of the context of scales and arpeggios? Context is a powerful tool for memory. There's lots of psychology/ neuroscience literature out there about it. For example, some memory champions (and notably Hannibal Lecter!) build a memory palace to help them retain information. But context can also help when understanding new information (and when information is understood, it is retained best). EDIT - Don't want to derail this thread in any way, or be overly critical - hope nobody thinks I'm being a downer. I do think it's a useful exercise, but just find these sorts of pedagogical questions really interesting.

Stupid question but how is this giving you something different from just learning e.g. scales all over the fretboard? Maybe it's a metric of fretboard knowledge, but is it useful in of itself, and if so can it only be attained by this exercise? In my (ignorant) view, it smacks of a technical exercise that is a bit too separate from actual music.

Likewise (although it's a bit further afield), you're welcome to get in touch for a play on my bass if you ever find yourself here in Oxford.

It looks nice from the photos, but hard to tell without seeing it in person. Maybe if you're a first-time DB buyer you could ask a player with some experience to come with you? Worth even getting in touch with a local DB player who is a stranger to you and asking for advice - can save you lots of hassle and make sure you get a good instrument.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1426545390' post='2719275'] My theory is not up to scratch, so I'm a bit confused here. Should that not be [b]C[/b][b]maj [/b]instead G of as this (C maj) is the relative major of A minor ? [/quote] It's just the difference between using an F# (A dorian) or an F natural (A aeolian). Both options on a minor chord like that. Don't think the melody has an F or an F# in it, so up to you and depends what the chordal instruments are doing. If the chordal instrument is throwing in Bm7, then a F# is actually a better choice (it's the 5th of Bm7), and it allows a bit of harmonic movement when you switch to the Dm7 Am7 section - you can use D dorian (C major starting from D), which has an F natural in, so a bit of a change.

If in doubt, you can always use your ears - what are the song's melody notes? This also applies to more complicated chord progressions.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1429800296' post='2755095'] As an electric player, I can play bebop lines and some other very interesting things when soloing, some quite creative and rarely used with electric bass. When I play double bass (which is almost always now), I cannot execute complex, fast runs in thumb position and have had to find a way to get [i]deeper[/i] into the bass. [/quote] As someone who also started on electric, I feel the pain for sure! One thing I've been trying to get together (had a few glimmers of hope but not there yet) is playing more through the changes than trying to make each change. Like playing with a key centre, or using pentatonic groupings to join disparate chords that might share notes in common. I think soloing on upright forces you to get further into a tune in many ways. EDIT - Having mulled it over a bit how best to explain, I guess the focus is to detach your solo from the constraints of a given tune's harmonic rhythm, and think in bigger units than a bar or even 2 bars. Instead of playing C-7 language for one bar, then F7 language for one bar, then Bbmaj7 language for one bar, it's more about thinking in melodies that fit those changes. It might be Bb major scale ideas, or Bb maj pentatonic ideas, or F maj pentatonic ideas, or even Eb maj pentatonic ideas, then point is to get some breathing space. It's always melodies, Michael Moore springs to mind as a player who I suspect thinks in this way. Pentatonics for this are a dead useful tool - for example, an Eb major pentatonic would fit over C-7 F7 (ii V in Bb major) and it's relative minor Am7b5 D7alt (ii V in G minor). Stuff like this allows for a certain amount of commonality across progressions, playing across the barline etc. I think for me it has to be ear-based though, I've gotta not only hear the melodies to play, but also have the tune's form going through my head clear as if I were listening to it.