Beedster

[quote name='TheG' timestamp='1380495059' post='2226288'] Also in one of the replies I got in a previous post Bilbo said "Personally, I would rather just buy one and spend time playing it instead of driving around the country looking at them." which has stayed in my mind since seeing it. I still think I did the right thing driving round but then again I think Bilbos words seem to have some substance too. Especially as now i am experimenting with different sounds on the same bass currently. [/quote] I'm with Bilbo, or at least, that's what I've decided to do. Given that my own bass tends to sound and play differently depending how tired I am, what sort of mood I'm in etc (of course, [i]it [/i]doesn't play or sound differently, I just find it easier or harder to play, or like its sound to a greater or lesser degree depending on energy, mood etc), I doubt I could make a reliable evaluation if going from shop to shop, and all the shops that have lots appear to also charge a lot more. So, I took a leap, went on gut instinct and faith in what a few others had said about this particular instrument, and bought one

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380296503' post='2223464'] It's a tough one, it's more the fact that I know between now and finishing music college (If I get in) I won't see 5k again, some people will say but how do you know that? If I was studying i'd be working less, also if I do decide to work i'd quite like the money to go towards post-graduate study. (maybe i'll change my mind in a few years time) the problem is now that prices have gone up to 9k a year, it's stupid money! (especially as Post-graduate study you fund yourself not through Student Finance) [/quote] Points taken, but surely the used market and a patient wait is far more likely to bring the quality you are after at the level of money you have? You seem to be a patient and knowledgable guy when it comes to DB (i.e., the polar opposite of me), I worry that a week or so after buying a new bass at substantially above £5k a used one of equal quality is going to appear on this very forum at substantially below £5k. Worse still, a much better instrument than that you've bought might appear at the same price. I'm looking for a new DB so perhaps can't talk, but I'm doing so for a completely different set of reasons, i.e., I need an instrument that isn't going to require regular set ups and repairs for a few years, that'll do the job and which I know isn't going to suddenly collapse under me! I suspect that in your world, any problems with an old instrument you would be able to find plenty of people to help you fix them which is certainly not the case in mine Either way, good luck. C

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1380290986' post='2223359'] Wow, I am fascinated by this thread. I admire you guys for being so passionate about studying music seriously and making it you career. As a guy who has been paid to play gigs for 20 years I feel a bit of a cheat because I have never studied music, then again I play in very different circles and I can "afford" to play much cheaper intruments! (I also dont get paid all that much of course!!) Anyhow, whatever bass you choose to buy and whatever college you choose to study in, well done to you, your commitment is refreshing, as is your willingness to learn and to ask, which is a very important thing in all walks of life.... By the way, I agree, flying to Germany and back with a bass may not be very expensive and a shop may also act on your behalf for a small-ish commission. Good luck! [/quote] +1, it's a really interesting thread, I imagine it's going to tun a while as we all share the O/P's DB buying journey. I wish I had his diligence and patience

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380284192' post='2223234'] Yeah understandable, I am looking for a bass for the long term though. Not just to see me through college. [/quote] Given your evident seriousness and ambition, I doubt a £5k instrument will satisfy your long term ambitions. Enjoy the hunt, and I hope you're successful and prove me wrong C

[quote name='stu_g' timestamp='1380004395' post='2219251'] I think they stopped making them due to the fact it just wasnt making them any money in the end. [/quote] That and the fact that, for all the reasons above, folks started buying the SUB over the more expensive and EBMM flagship 'rays. I've owned 2, a 4er and a 5er. The 5er was at the time a massive improvement in both tone and appearance over the 'ray 5 at about half the price

I'd guess a change of tubes could make it growl, speak to Watford valves, they'd be able to tell you

Yep, not a growly amp, but lovely clean tubey tone all the way up. Not an SVT

Thanks for your help everyone, resolved into an Items Wanted thread at http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217661-wanted-used-double-bass-up-to-l4k-34-ideally-a-recent-instrument-not-an-antique/page__fromsearch__1

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379785586' post='2216789'] Not mine sad to say - it's a 1950's German laminate and a very nice one at that. A DB's value follows a slightly different pattern to vintage Fenders. Age has a certain influence on the price, but name and history will have a far greater effect, so with your budget you could probably pick up a very very nice German or French factory bass which'll have had the benefit of having been played for 150 years, possibly a top grading, back tuned and generally fussed over. An English or name Italian bass of the same age will cost you ten times that. It might sound better, might sound pretty similar but allot of the value is in the name and the history. Valuations are very tricky, as you're comparing a specific manufacturer's range of instruments (Fender) with effectively every double bass that's ever been made.... Valuations (even from so-called 'professionals') vary massively, and I still think the best path to a decent DB is to try as many privately listed instruments as possible and avoid shops altogether. If someone's taking the p#ss, you'll see it in the cracks, bad sound, soundpost in the wrong place etc. and you might come across just what you want. You can't really compare them to bike frames - steel frames are obsolete for serious road racing whereas it's effectively the opposite for DB's. If bike frames followed the same pattern as a DB, a steel frame would stiffen up, become more responsive, ride and look better the more it's used. [/quote] Thanks Henry, I think you've very nicely summarised what I've started to realise through an awful lot of internet reading!

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379761251' post='2216497'] If you're coming into town to go to Thwaites, you may as well take the time to head out to the Contrabass Shoppe in Surrey. Both shops know how to charge but when you're spending thousands you have to try before you buy.... Bridgewood & Niezert in Stoke Newington always had a few DB's in when I lived there and they seem to cater for the more reasonably priced end of the scale. Gallery Strings are in Hastings, Sussex. Peter usually has frighteningly old and famous basses in stock (like tens of thousands of pounds) but apparently he's happy to do instruments for mere mortals too. If this turns into a DB road trip you may as well go see Martyn Bailey in Essex and finally taking in Thomas Martin in Banbury on your way back to Wales. I'm sure if you manage all of them you'll never want to look at another double bass again [/quote] Thanks Henry, looks like the only option really. Love that blonde on your website BTW

Thanks guys A question I keep coming back to is that of what I think of as the instrument value:antique/rarity value ratio with old DBs. With vintage Fenders is pretty clear cut; whilst old Fenders are hugely expensive, they are pretty much the same instrument as decent new Fenders (especially the good RIs), that is, all other things being equal, you'd be hard pushed to find a substantial difference in tone, playability etc. In short, the older the Fender, the more the ratio favours antique/rarity value, with a new Fender it's probably 10:1 in favour of instrument, with an old one (pre-CBS) probably 1:10 in favour of antique/rarity value (hope that makes sense, in short what I'm saying is that perhaps 90% of the value of an old Fender doesn't relate to it's value as a musical instrument but as a rare and collectible item). What's the equivalent with DBs? If I buy an old instrument am I actually buying a better instrument (all other things being equal), or am I generally simply buying a playable antique that becomes more expensive/valuable the older/rarer it is without any of this increasing value being a function of its quality as an instrument? I ride road bikes and I've been looking at Italian frames recently; the new carbon stuff is so much better, lighter, stiffer and responsive than the old steel frames, but the latter still command high prices on eBay. I'd never buy an old steel frame, there would be no point unless I was a collector. I might however buy a 2-year old carbon frame simply because it would be high quality but cheaper than buying new. I guess I'm wondering if it's the same with DBs. Given my budget, is my best bet buying a used modern instrument on the basis that I'd get more bang for my buck (OK, I recognise I may need to wait a while), or is there a genuine rise in quality associated with older instruments, and should I therefore revise my thinking and reconsider an oldie? Cheers Chris

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379740698' post='2216321'] Your price range is what I'm in when I look for an upgrade and I fully intend to play the one I buy before purchase. [/quote] I've done a lot of research over the last two or so weeks. I'm beginning to worry that it's a bit of an awkward price range in new instrument terms, that is I'm not sure that £3k will necessarily get me an instrument twice as good as £1.5k (or even £1k), but it seems that 'serious' instruments get going at about £5k (check out the entirely different manufacturers named in the other current thread looking at a £5k instrument). I get the feeling that whilst £1.5k and £5k might be on the steep slope of the price/value curve, £3k might be on the flat or even in a valley, a bit like a £1.5k Fender 'special', not much better than a £1k Fender, but probably nothing like as good as a £2k Sadowsky/Celinder. I don't want to get into a price war with myself, but I worry that I'm going to spend £3k and wish I'd found another £2k down the line. As was said by the BC member who started the similar thread yesterday, I want this instrument to last me at least 10 years, if not 20. Over even 10 years the cost per per unit time falls away dramatically, £5k equating to about £10 per week, or a beer or two less per week at London prices A visit to Thwaites strikes me as being the best bet? Any other suggestions for a well stocked DB shop?

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1379715412' post='2216237'] And if anyone's bored discussing customs duty and how to avoid it and fancies expressing an opinion on double basses, I'd really appreciate some help at [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217228-some-advice-on-newish-dbs-please/"]http://basschat.co.u...ish-dbs-please/[/url] [/quote] In case anyone missed it

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379716187' post='2216248'] Wasn't that thread relating to travelling an instruments in an entourage of musicians, not travelling a bass independently. [/quote] Yes of course, customs let individuals travelling independently break the law but not bands, orchestras or entourages, my mistake

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379715763' post='2216242'] If I want to take my electric bass to New York for example, I would jump on a plane. (As the bass was already brought in the UK I wouldn't have to pay VAT on this as it has already been brought and paid for here, correct) So if you take the same scenario. Someone who is from and living in New York (full time) travels to England with their bass they have just brought whatever etc, they surely wouldn't have to pay VAT on this as they live in America and they would have receipts and they were visiting England. (They wouldn't have anything to declare because they're leaving their country) Also this is all been done by person, it wouldn't be shipped. As you would be taking it as luggage. [/quote] Here you go [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379714222' post='2216220'] Yup. As per my post earlier, they had to complete a carnet when they bought it in, when they didn't have it with them on the way out they got a huge bill for import duty based on a notional value (way inflated) plus a penalty of 100% of that amount. If it's worth importing it's worth doing properly. Personally, in your price range, I think there are plenty of UK basses (both new and second hand) that would fit the bill. Also remember if there are any issues with the bass, a - the company is in the States so how are you going to get aftercare and b - if your relative is the purchaser of record then the contract and guarantee are with them, you have no rights with the supplier. Steve [/quote]

And if anyone's bored discussing customs duty and how to avoid it and fancies expressing an opinion on double basses, I'd really appreciate some help at http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217228-some-advice-on-newish-dbs-please/

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379714707' post='2216229'] No one has still answered the question of how they would know the value of the bass? [/quote] YES THEY HAVE. You are legally obliged to declare the value. If they doubt you, they will estimate it on your behalf, and guess what, it will be an overestimate. As Bilbo said, they do this for a living. I spent a sobering couple of hours at V&R talking about both the methods customs employ to ensure that musical instruments aren't imported without duty being paid and the penalties they can impose. After that, I wouldn't even bring in a plectrum without declaring it.

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379714222' post='2216220'] Yup. As per my post earlier, they had to complete a carnet when they bought it in, when they didn't have it with them on the way out they got a huge bill for import duty based on a notional value (way inflated) plus a penalty of 100% of that amount. If it's worth importing it's worth doing properly. Personally, in your price range, I think there are plenty of UK basses (both new and second hand) that would fit the bill. Also remember if there are any issues with the bass, a - the company is in the States so how are you going to get aftercare and b - if your relative is the purchaser of record then the contract and guarantee are with them, you have no rights with the supplier. Steve [/quote] Couldn't have put it better

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379713967' post='2216217'] What about people who own instruments already brought in that country who are then flying because they have a tour/show etc? Also apparently some people got receipts from the company saying this bass cost me I dunno £1000... instead of £5000 etc. So they would declare it as being less value then it really is [/quote] Seriously mate, either do your homework or, if you think you're special, try it. Learning by your mistakes is the best way after all

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379712605' post='2216192'] What happens though if you go over there and buy a bass off a private seller? (How are customs going to know the value of the instrument?) [/quote] You have to declare it, as you would have to on an eBay sale from a private seller. Repeat, Customs aren't stupid. I'm sure there'a a very good chance that if you walked through the 'nothing to declare' corridor with a DB on your back you'd get away with it, but for the money in question and the stress, I wouldn't risk it. An impounded instrument and a fine wouldn't be funny.

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379711790' post='2216179'] It's a bloody nightmare import tax, If I did it like this though. Surely it will be impossible for them to know, literally impossible as the bass would of been brought by someone who lives in America who would be traveling to England on holiday with the bass. (with documentation) Hmmm damn you 20% VAT tax! [/quote] If you bring something of value into the country you often have to prove you're taking it out with you as well. As Henry said, Customs aren't daft, they have experts in musical instruments who know exactly what they're doing and how people try to get around the rule, they also have more powers than the police.

If I mention Bryant or Upton will I get more responses

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379709543' post='2216142'] [url="http://www.bobshouseofbasses.com/staging/staging_site/rogeri_willow.html"]http://www.bobshouse...eri_willow.html[/url] An option. [url="http://bassviolinshop.com/catalog/index.php/products/samuel-shen-sb200-rogeri-willow/"]http://bassviolinsho...-rogeri-willow/[/url] Is it me or are these the same bass or different models or? hmm? [/quote] I've found a lot of similar examples recently, the same instrument with different brand name depending on where it's sold. I think like EBs in the 80s, a lot of different brands are coming out of the same workshops

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379694321' post='2215862'] So far as I know he stopped making instruments for specific customers but he's still making a few at his leisure, which all seem to go. I hope you're still taking care of that lovely maple fretless P Chris [/quote] Ah, guess there's be some demand for those? FL? Yes, I'm looking at it as I type, it's a stunner in every way, took a long time to find one that good. There's something magical about maple fretless precisions C

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1379693130' post='2215830'] Import duty is a huge amount I'm afraid. You are looking at 3.2% of the total price, plus shipping, plus vat 20% on this total. I am nearly sure of this because I am currently going through this process myself. For shipping only you are looking at £500, plus £150 duty, plus over £1200 Vat: taking a £5000 bass up to over £6500. Unfortunately for us all the tax man is not silly and has recently "wisened" up to the "gift" scam. You will pay the same amount of tax and duty on a gift, unless you declare that the bass is worth nothing, in which case you pay no tax at all, but if they damage it in transit prepare to cry because there is no insurance cover. [/quote] Yep, that's the truth, you will still pay the same duty if you bring it in yourself as well. You're far better off buying a British or EU instrument. Above people are talking about Bryants as if they're still being produced, did I miss something?