Beedster

Thanks guys A question I keep coming back to is that of what I think of as the instrument value:antique/rarity value ratio with old DBs. With vintage Fenders is pretty clear cut; whilst old Fenders are hugely expensive, they are pretty much the same instrument as decent new Fenders (especially the good RIs), that is, all other things being equal, you'd be hard pushed to find a substantial difference in tone, playability etc. In short, the older the Fender, the more the ratio favours antique/rarity value, with a new Fender it's probably 10:1 in favour of instrument, with an old one (pre-CBS) probably 1:10 in favour of antique/rarity value (hope that makes sense, in short what I'm saying is that perhaps 90% of the value of an old Fender doesn't relate to it's value as a musical instrument but as a rare and collectible item). What's the equivalent with DBs? If I buy an old instrument am I actually buying a better instrument (all other things being equal), or am I generally simply buying a playable antique that becomes more expensive/valuable the older/rarer it is without any of this increasing value being a function of its quality as an instrument? I ride road bikes and I've been looking at Italian frames recently; the new carbon stuff is so much better, lighter, stiffer and responsive than the old steel frames, but the latter still command high prices on eBay. I'd never buy an old steel frame, there would be no point unless I was a collector. I might however buy a 2-year old carbon frame simply because it would be high quality but cheaper than buying new. I guess I'm wondering if it's the same with DBs. Given my budget, is my best bet buying a used modern instrument on the basis that I'd get more bang for my buck (OK, I recognise I may need to wait a while), or is there a genuine rise in quality associated with older instruments, and should I therefore revise my thinking and reconsider an oldie? Cheers Chris

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379740698' post='2216321'] Your price range is what I'm in when I look for an upgrade and I fully intend to play the one I buy before purchase. [/quote] I've done a lot of research over the last two or so weeks. I'm beginning to worry that it's a bit of an awkward price range in new instrument terms, that is I'm not sure that £3k will necessarily get me an instrument twice as good as £1.5k (or even £1k), but it seems that 'serious' instruments get going at about £5k (check out the entirely different manufacturers named in the other current thread looking at a £5k instrument). I get the feeling that whilst £1.5k and £5k might be on the steep slope of the price/value curve, £3k might be on the flat or even in a valley, a bit like a £1.5k Fender 'special', not much better than a £1k Fender, but probably nothing like as good as a £2k Sadowsky/Celinder. I don't want to get into a price war with myself, but I worry that I'm going to spend £3k and wish I'd found another £2k down the line. As was said by the BC member who started the similar thread yesterday, I want this instrument to last me at least 10 years, if not 20. Over even 10 years the cost per per unit time falls away dramatically, £5k equating to about £10 per week, or a beer or two less per week at London prices A visit to Thwaites strikes me as being the best bet? Any other suggestions for a well stocked DB shop?

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1379715412' post='2216237'] And if anyone's bored discussing customs duty and how to avoid it and fancies expressing an opinion on double basses, I'd really appreciate some help at [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217228-some-advice-on-newish-dbs-please/"]http://basschat.co.u...ish-dbs-please/[/url] [/quote] In case anyone missed it

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379716187' post='2216248'] Wasn't that thread relating to travelling an instruments in an entourage of musicians, not travelling a bass independently. [/quote] Yes of course, customs let individuals travelling independently break the law but not bands, orchestras or entourages, my mistake

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379715763' post='2216242'] If I want to take my electric bass to New York for example, I would jump on a plane. (As the bass was already brought in the UK I wouldn't have to pay VAT on this as it has already been brought and paid for here, correct) So if you take the same scenario. Someone who is from and living in New York (full time) travels to England with their bass they have just brought whatever etc, they surely wouldn't have to pay VAT on this as they live in America and they would have receipts and they were visiting England. (They wouldn't have anything to declare because they're leaving their country) Also this is all been done by person, it wouldn't be shipped. As you would be taking it as luggage. [/quote] Here you go [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379714222' post='2216220'] Yup. As per my post earlier, they had to complete a carnet when they bought it in, when they didn't have it with them on the way out they got a huge bill for import duty based on a notional value (way inflated) plus a penalty of 100% of that amount. If it's worth importing it's worth doing properly. Personally, in your price range, I think there are plenty of UK basses (both new and second hand) that would fit the bill. Also remember if there are any issues with the bass, a - the company is in the States so how are you going to get aftercare and b - if your relative is the purchaser of record then the contract and guarantee are with them, you have no rights with the supplier. Steve [/quote]

And if anyone's bored discussing customs duty and how to avoid it and fancies expressing an opinion on double basses, I'd really appreciate some help at http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217228-some-advice-on-newish-dbs-please/

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379714707' post='2216229'] No one has still answered the question of how they would know the value of the bass? [/quote] YES THEY HAVE. You are legally obliged to declare the value. If they doubt you, they will estimate it on your behalf, and guess what, it will be an overestimate. As Bilbo said, they do this for a living. I spent a sobering couple of hours at V&R talking about both the methods customs employ to ensure that musical instruments aren't imported without duty being paid and the penalties they can impose. After that, I wouldn't even bring in a plectrum without declaring it.

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1379714222' post='2216220'] Yup. As per my post earlier, they had to complete a carnet when they bought it in, when they didn't have it with them on the way out they got a huge bill for import duty based on a notional value (way inflated) plus a penalty of 100% of that amount. If it's worth importing it's worth doing properly. Personally, in your price range, I think there are plenty of UK basses (both new and second hand) that would fit the bill. Also remember if there are any issues with the bass, a - the company is in the States so how are you going to get aftercare and b - if your relative is the purchaser of record then the contract and guarantee are with them, you have no rights with the supplier. Steve [/quote] Couldn't have put it better

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379713967' post='2216217'] What about people who own instruments already brought in that country who are then flying because they have a tour/show etc? Also apparently some people got receipts from the company saying this bass cost me I dunno £1000... instead of £5000 etc. So they would declare it as being less value then it really is [/quote] Seriously mate, either do your homework or, if you think you're special, try it. Learning by your mistakes is the best way after all

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379712605' post='2216192'] What happens though if you go over there and buy a bass off a private seller? (How are customs going to know the value of the instrument?) [/quote] You have to declare it, as you would have to on an eBay sale from a private seller. Repeat, Customs aren't stupid. I'm sure there'a a very good chance that if you walked through the 'nothing to declare' corridor with a DB on your back you'd get away with it, but for the money in question and the stress, I wouldn't risk it. An impounded instrument and a fine wouldn't be funny.

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379711790' post='2216179'] It's a bloody nightmare import tax, If I did it like this though. Surely it will be impossible for them to know, literally impossible as the bass would of been brought by someone who lives in America who would be traveling to England on holiday with the bass. (with documentation) Hmmm damn you 20% VAT tax! [/quote] If you bring something of value into the country you often have to prove you're taking it out with you as well. As Henry said, Customs aren't daft, they have experts in musical instruments who know exactly what they're doing and how people try to get around the rule, they also have more powers than the police.

If I mention Bryant or Upton will I get more responses

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379709543' post='2216142'] [url="http://www.bobshouseofbasses.com/staging/staging_site/rogeri_willow.html"]http://www.bobshouse...eri_willow.html[/url] An option. [url="http://bassviolinshop.com/catalog/index.php/products/samuel-shen-sb200-rogeri-willow/"]http://bassviolinsho...-rogeri-willow/[/url] Is it me or are these the same bass or different models or? hmm? [/quote] I've found a lot of similar examples recently, the same instrument with different brand name depending on where it's sold. I think like EBs in the 80s, a lot of different brands are coming out of the same workshops

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1379694321' post='2215862'] So far as I know he stopped making instruments for specific customers but he's still making a few at his leisure, which all seem to go. I hope you're still taking care of that lovely maple fretless P Chris [/quote] Ah, guess there's be some demand for those? FL? Yes, I'm looking at it as I type, it's a stunner in every way, took a long time to find one that good. There's something magical about maple fretless precisions C

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1379693130' post='2215830'] Import duty is a huge amount I'm afraid. You are looking at 3.2% of the total price, plus shipping, plus vat 20% on this total. I am nearly sure of this because I am currently going through this process myself. For shipping only you are looking at £500, plus £150 duty, plus over £1200 Vat: taking a £5000 bass up to over £6500. Unfortunately for us all the tax man is not silly and has recently "wisened" up to the "gift" scam. You will pay the same amount of tax and duty on a gift, unless you declare that the bass is worth nothing, in which case you pay no tax at all, but if they damage it in transit prepare to cry because there is no insurance cover. [/quote] Yep, that's the truth, you will still pay the same duty if you bring it in yourself as well. You're far better off buying a British or EU instrument. Above people are talking about Bryants as if they're still being produced, did I miss something?

[quote name='geoffbassist' timestamp='1379664034' post='2215305'] I like the Westbury and had a friend who used it on the classical course I was on. It was a nice little bass but I don't know if it would work for jazz though as it was set up for orchestra playing. Eastman have a good reputation, but I haven't played one. One of the really hard things about bass hunting is that when you do find one and go and play it, they usually have a terrible set up and strings meaning you really cant tell anyway. It really is a crazy instrument :-) [/quote] Thanks Geoff, yes, daft instruments, although having spent years negotiating the poor QC of vintage Fenders, I'm not unfamiliar with the phenomena of substantial variation between apparently identical instruments I'm leaning towards the Eastman, no idea why really....

Updated list of options [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Stentor Profundo [/font][/color][url="http://www.stentor-music.com/catalogue/html%20strings/22.htm"]http://www.stentor-m...0strings/22.htm[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Roth & Junius RJKE Master [/font][/color][url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/rothjunius_europe_master_doublebass_2_3_4.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...ebass_2_3_4.htm[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Gedo 3/4 [/font][/color][url="http://www.gedo-musik.de/shop/product.php?id_product=820"]http://www.gedo-musi...?id_product=820[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Thomann Bohemia [/font][/color][url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/media_bdbviewer_AR_313754.html?image=10&small=1"]http://www.thomann.d...mage=10&small=1[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Sinfonica [/font][/color][url="http://www.alangregory.co.uk/musicshop/Sinfonica_Antiqued_Gamba_Style_Double_Bass.html"]http://www.alangrego...ouble_Bass.html[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Westbury [/font][/color][url="http://www.alangregory.co.uk/musicshop/Westbury_Gamba_Shape_Double_Bass.html"]http://www.alangrego...ouble_Bass.html[/url] Eastman http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/eastman-master-series-double-bass Klaus Heffler http://www.thomann.de/gb/klaus_heffler_kontrabass_nr210_3_4_gamba.htm Now help me out here, there must be a few folks out there who've played or owned one or more of the above, or know folks who have? I've read very good things about the Eastman and the Sinfonica. Thoughts seem to be mixed on Stentors and Gedo. EWorth mentioning also that I find the lack of any information about the expensive DBs at Thomann (Roth & Junius and Klaus Heffler) somewhat odd, so I'm assuming these are either new to market instruments, rebranded, or an extremely well kept secret Thoughts........?

Silver Slaps which I bought from you Clarky, they're about the only strings with the balance of low tension and decent tone that work on my old Rumanian. I fend them increasingly quite noisy and a little like TI Flats on EB, just not quite solid enough. I played Evah's on the old German and loved them, and they'll be the starting point when the new instrument arrives, whenever that will be

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1371282722' post='2112001'] Not that he needs any more positive feedback but once again Clarky has gone out of his way to get some bass gear to me. A top guy in every respect, and like a fine wine, getting even better with age [/quote] Can't be a***d to write a new comment so copied an old one that still applies

Mic it Steve (the thread isn't about how to record DB per se, more about whether there are any qualities of a DB that make it inherently more recordable). Cheers C

[attachment=144072:Bass Bike.jpg]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1379505661' post='2213412'] Blimey just how far north does Wales go [/quote] 2 hours 42 minutes each way according to Google Maps! Up here it's not the distance, it's the slow roads, slow drivers and sheep. 18 miles to work can take over an hour (I can cycle it in 1 hour 15, but can't carry a DB on my bike)

Thanks Pete, almost a 6 hour round trip believe it or not. I simply don't have the time for speculative visits to bass shops to be honest, and over and above that, most I've phoned have not had much stock anyway, despite what they say on their respective websites. Hence this thread

I probably haven't explained my motivation very well above so I should clarify (as I did in the DB recording thread). The new bass is a recording/pleasure/safe-gig instrument. I'm not too worried per se about £3k's worth of instrument in the house or even at safe gigs. I however sold the German because I was very worried about £3k's worth of [i]120 year old and very fragile instrument[/i], even in the house. It was very light and never felt especially robust to me, certainly not compared to my Rumainian (aka The Beast). Over and above this, the more I spoke to experts about issues such as humidity, potential problems re previous repairs or unseen damage, I felt a weight of responsibility owning what was as much an antique as a musical instrument. I'd rather not have this feeling about a musical instrument. So, given I went through the same process with EB (i.e, fascination with vintage moving to appreciation of benefits of modern), whilst I'm not happy to own an expensive antique, I am happy to own an expensive new or nearly new DB. My main concerns are, in no particular order tone, playability and durability. My current bass has durability, it has some degree of tone (quite good for bluegrass etc), but is very hard and tiring to play. I've taken it to two luthiers who've both said the same thing; it's not worth spending the several hundred pounds that would be required to make it play and sound like the instrument I'd like. In short, it's going to stay because I like its honesty and the fact that I don't worry about it getting broken in pubs. However, I get very little pleasure from playing it, looking at it or listening to it recorded. What I really want to know from this thread is, if I'm going to spend between £1000 and £3000 on a new (or very nearly new) instrument that will provide the balance of tone, playability and durability that I'm after, on which instrument should I be spending it. To make an analogy with EB, I now play an MIJ '62 RI Precision. It's hard to tell the difference between it and a real '62, it's just cheaper, less likely to prove problematic structurally, and less anxiety inducing. OK, it doesn't have mojo of the real thing, but IMO mojo is highly overrated. Greg's newly acquired Profundo would have been perfect right now but for two things; I'm no fan of what I see as being the rather odd busetto body shape (not a deal breaker if it turns out that the Profundo is the best on the list), and the fact that it's already needed a repair. Don't get me wrong, for £1000 or thereabouts it's no doubt an absolute steal and probably as good as new, but I'm after a bass in which i can be 100% confident, or send back to Thomann or whoever under warranty if there's any problem. I live too far from a decent luthier! I know the problems of buying new, I've read every thread here and on TB. There are of course limitations of doing so which I'll live with. What I really need is this; I've listed 6 new instruments above, I'd really appreciate any thought/experience with any of these, or any alternative new instrument suggestions. Two years ago I would have been looking for the oldest instrument £3000 would get me. Things change eh Chris