Vin Venal

Thanks for the input all.

I'm now getting the sound I want due to a fantastic combination of a GK MB800 and a Darkglass 112 cab. 

I'm getting all the clank and crunch anyone could ever wish for out of that. 😁

Used to wear it low slung. Most of my bass idols did so.

Now that I'm old and fat, it has had to be elevated considerably to accommodate my girth, and back pain.

I'd say nowadays I'm at about Joe Lally height.

6 hours ago, peteb said:

When Guy Pratt was offered the Pink Floyd gig, he said that there was an understanding that Gilmore wanted him to use a P bass, rather than what he was playing at the time.

He didn't turn the gig down. 

I dunno who either of them people are. Lol.

5 hours ago, peteb said:

No, it won't...! 

It's all about how much you are prepared to commit to the project and what your ambitions for it are (as well as what you can afford). Of course if the rest of the band are using top quality gear then there is a risk that any deficiencies in yours may be more apparent. 

Personally, I would look for the best suitable bass I could afford, but look to the secondhand market so I wouldn't lose too much if I needed to sell it on. 

Dude, you're super adamant about what will and won't work, considering you just told us your experience of downtuned heavy music is your band wanted to tune down one step live, so you went out and bought a 35" scale 5 string cuz you thought your 34" scale bass couldn't handle that for some reason...

This bit - "Of course if the rest of the band are using top quality gear then there is a risk that any deficiencies in yours may be more apparent." - just makes me feel sad.

6 minutes ago, peteb said:

But that's the point, if you are going to commit to playing this type of music then you need a dedicated bass that can handle it.

You might think think that a standard 34" Jazz bass would handle most gigs, but not this one. I joined a band that recorded an album then told me that they were going to tune down a whole step to play live . As good as the bass that I used on the album sounded, it wasn't going to work live with this tuning, so I went and bought a s/h 35" scale five string. I won't use this new bass for any other gigs that I do, so when that band finishes then I will sell it on.

Yeah, I get you.

I dunno much about down tuning, or crazy multi-scale 5 string basses. I play short scale 4 strings.

But a few people above have said a 34" scale with a good setup would do the job, and even if not, there are multi-scale basses available for very reasonable prices these days.

If twere me, I'd not want to drop a couple of grand not even knowing I was gonna get on with the multi-scale thing.

It's so easy these days to have a decent DI pedal on your board, and/or a tiny class D amp in your gig bag. Only thing it really makes sense to borrow is a cab, which I wouldn't have any issue with, as long as I knew it could handle the output.

Just now, SteveXFR said:

We're making no money but it's early days. For me, it'll be fun above money with the ambition to play some good support gigs and some festivals. If I could give up the day job that'd be amazing but I'm not counting on it.

I'm thinking a grand is a good budget. I'm going to see if I can try out an Ibanez EHB1005MS multiscale 5 string

Agree that a grand sounds like a very sensible budget for an instrument upgrade at that stage, if you feel that an upgrade is needed.

Don't let gear snobs pressure you into spending more than you want to.

How much money is your band making?

If the answer was anything less than enough to quit my day job, I'd tell em to fosters off, and buy summat much cheaper which will do the job just as well.

Especially if you're downtuning to buggery, cuz even with a five string multi-scale, you're probably still gonna have to invest in a specialised setup, and mess with the nut and stuff, and I wouldn't want that much money tied up in a bass dedicated to one thing.

Also, imagine your band really takes off so you're touring and stinky poo. Do you really want to watch your £2000 Dingleberry get shot-putted onto a conveyor belt by Glaswegian baggage handlers at the airport? And you'll need redundancy, so are you gonna invest in a spare £2000 Dungwall, also down tuned to buggery?

I have several short scales, probably for similar reasons to you. Dodgy hands and back.

I have a Sire U5, and it's a great instrument. Punches way above its weight in terms of value for money. The neck is incredibly comfortable to play. It's the lightest bass I've owned. Obviously, in terms of hardware and finishing it can't really compete with a Mexican or American fender (have owned both), but that would be an unrealistic expectation.

I've got two Mustangs, but they're both Mexican. The player series PJ and the Vintera. The neck profile is very different on these. The PJ has a super comfortable narrow nut, and modern shallow neck profile, and a matt finish, and is lovely to play. The Vintera has a gloss finish, and feels both wider and thicker, and is way less easy on the hands. IMO, if you're looking at the American performer and the JMJ, you wanna make sure they have the more modern style neck rather than the vintage style.

To throw a wild card out there, I also own a Maruszczyk Elwood 4p in a 30", and it's pretty much perfect. It feels like better quality than the Mexican Fenders. The nut is 40mm rather than 38mm, but the neck profile is nice and thin, and I find it very comfortable. Also if you go custom, you can spec 38mm. The fretboard is also very flat, if you like that. It's lighter than both my Fenders, just a touch heavier than the Sire.

If I was ranking all my basses in order of preference, it would go: Maruszczyk, Sire, PJ Mustang, Vintera Mustang.

Hope that's helpful.

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Trying to use words to describe sounds is ultimately pointless. One person's "burpy" is another person's "farty". One person's "deep" is another person's "muddy".

Don't agree that it's pointless. Except obviously in the sense that everything is ultimately pointless.

Trying to use words to describe sounds is fun, creative, and a great example of what language is for. Like using words to try to describe colours, smells, and complex emotional experiences.

I think its pretty cool that some air moves in a certain way, and what you hear, and what I hear, and the effect it has on us are totally different, and can never truly be shared, so we use this complex system of symbolic meaning to try to convey that to each other, and in the process discover that we're wired completely differently. It's the Kantian epistemological break happening right before our ears. Lol.

FYI I'm pretty high at the moment, so apologies if I'm rambling.

3 hours ago, Baxlin said:

Genuine question.  

Does ‘dirty and spiky’ come in different tones?  In your previous post you seemed to be advocating many different tones, not just one...

Dunno what you mean mate. I'm not advocating anything. Said it plain as day, it's subjective, and you should do whatever works for you.

Only thing I think anyone is "wrong" about is the idea that bass tone doesn't matter, or nobody else notices or cares, cuz that's a daft idea IMO.

Reckon I've got a few different sounds. A bit dirty. Pretty dirty. And really f*ckin dirty. Try to always keep it spiky though. 😀

Oh and to answer the OPs question, I like to think of my tone as dirty and spiky. Like putting your hand into one of those bins for used needles. Lol.

On 08/04/2021 at 08:59, NancyJohnson said:

I'll say this first off, I couldn't finish reading the original post; it's like when you're watching a film where there's a mad scientist with a blackboard covered in unfathomable calculations and he's screaming that in a few hours he'll work out how to time travel.

While I'm sure the OP harbours a passion and an element of madness for his/her tone, I'll pass along something that I've learnt from my long and varied experience of bass playing in bands and studio sessions, it's that (read carefully); nobody except you cares what you sound like.

Truth hurts, eh?

Understand that all these boxes, these nuances, these dB tweaks that you're throwing in are going to be lost in a band context; if you want a gnarly but polite Jean-Jacques Burnel tone, just dump all the existing outboard gear and buy a Tech21 Sansamp BDDI, roll back the drive and plug it into the effects return on your amp.

 

I can't believe there are professional musicians who think this way. So weird.

Like, in a live context, I concede tone matters less, simply because you have less control over it, but even then, like, it makes a huge difference what's in the bassists signal chain. On recordings, it's even more of a huge deal. Like the idea that there isn't much noticeable difference in the bass sound between, say, The Police and The Jesus Lizard records? Crazy.

During covid I've "been to" a load of virtual gigs - livestreamed. And even then, in that format, with the sonic limitations it brings, on more than one occasion, there were punters in the chat commenting on bass tone.

The idea of other musicians not caring about it is way out there. All the musicians I know obsess over their own tone, sure, but they also talk about other people's all the time. Even drummers. Lol.

Maybe it's a generational thing? Or a genre thing. I know if you go back far enough, there were less readily accessible ways for bassists to easily alter their tone, and a lot of stuff did kind of all sound the same, and some genres are still quite traditional in that sense I suppose. 

I think that all changed dramatically in the 90s though really. Noise rock and shoegaze and stuff like that (sure there are loads of other examples but that's just my area) saw bands really pushing for different sounds, and I think since then, even non-musicians who are into music are relatively clued up on sounds.

My own take on this is that if you take the view tone doesn't matter, and you discount all the ways of changing it from your musicianship, you're missing out on a huge part of what playing bass is about. The quality of the sound is as much of a factor to me as your left hand and right hand technique. We play electronic instruments at the end of the day, so everything we do is about manipulating an electronic signal. It's no less musical in my opinion to do that with a massive pedal board, and a load of knob twiddling.

Being a minimalist or a purist is totally an option though. Like if you just happen to think the only sound in the world for you is a P-bass with the knobs all the way open, into an SVT with everything at 12 o'clock, through an 8x10, that's cool. Whatever works for you! It's totally subjective. It's just the idea that it isn't important at all I find weird.

Maruszczyk?

Howdy

I don't know much about cabs.

I currently have a Fender Rumble 210. I feel like it's a bit muddy and boomy. Could be because it's on the floor in an upstairs room. Could be because im nowhere near pushing it, playing at sensible indoor volumes.

But I'm wondering if replacing it would help me get a sound closer to the sound I get when I listen through cans?

The rest of my rig - various passive basses into an Ampeg SCR-DI pedal, into an Ampeg PF500 head.

My tone when I play through cans, and the tone I'm going for has good low end, but also has plenty of "clank", usually with some degree of distortion. Think 90s alt-rock/post-hardcore bands like Jesus Lizard, Shellac, Fugazi etc.

What kind of cabs should I be looking for? Any recommendations?

Needs to be able to handle 500w at 4 ohms or 350w at 8ohms. Ideally not much heavier than 20k. Ideally under 500 quid.

Cheers!

Is this a 34" scale length?

On 15/04/2021 at 18:40, Eldon Tyrell said:

Looks like the low end lobster is not impressed by the Metro Express either. 2 claws out of 5.

 

I like the lobster.

Unlike some bass YouTube channels, he seems to  buy stuff himself, doesn't seem to get paid for his reviews, and regularly slates stuff.

Some of the others often sound like they're reading out the manufacturers marketing bumph. And it's hard to trust them when you literally never see them do a properly negative review.

That could just be because this guy is too small to get paid for his reviews yet. Who knows.

On 15/06/2020 at 18:05, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

I thought it would make sense to have a more general thread dedicated to lovers of short scale basses, such as my self.

So tell your story of how you got into short scale basses, show off your short scales, and tell their story.

The scene is yours fellow short scale bass enthusiast!

 

Inspired by this thread :

 

I started out playing a regular 34" scale bass, a great old Aria Pro II Laser Electric Classic bass, which I by the way still own, but as I at some point got involved with a noise rock and hardcore influenced math rock band, called Menfolk, with 2 bass players, where I sort of a had a more lead bass oriented role, I began to wish for a bass with a shorter scale, since a lot of fairly fast complex runs and chording was involved in my bass play with this band, not knowing at that point that such basses indeed already existed, and being made fun of by the, by the way incredible skilled, drummer (multi instrumentalist and musician as such for that matter), who was sort of the unofficial band leader, of Menfolk, and by the way still is one of my friends, for voicing my opinion about such, he apparently not being aware of the existence of short scale basses either at that point.

I eventually left that band, something I have regretted many times since, but I just wasn't all that psychologically well off at that time, and I felt like I was not able to give the band the full attention and dedication I felt it deserved, though that's another story, which by the way ended well, by them finding another great bass player, and truly nice guy too by the way, to take over my job, who actually used to be a fan of our band,  and after that, among other things, they released their first full length album on a small independent record company some of our mutual friends owned at that point, where I helped compose a couple of the songs on it, though I didn't actually record anything for it (but while I was still in the band I had previously recorded a 2 track single and a 4 track EP with them, also released on the same label), and after that they got a gig at Scandinavian's biggest rock festival "The Roskilde Festival", which is one of the , but by far not the only, reasons I regret choosing to leave.

Anyway a while after leaving Menfolk I discovered that short scale basses indeed was a thing and bought my first one, a Jerry Jones Longhorn, which is sort of a higher end, high quality, one might even call it boutique, now unfortunately discontinued, version of the original Danelectro one, from a now retired fairly legendary guitar builder/company.

The best bass I have, not only ever owned, but ever had the pleasure to lay my hands on yet, especially with the setting it's stock pickup selector rotary switch offered that put it's 2 lipstick tube pickups in series connection, and going into my Ampeg B15-S, 60W tube amp from 1969, with a 1X 15" flip top cab (same amp I used with my Aria Pro II in Menfolk. And believe it or not, but it was plenty loud to, without any issues whatsoever, compete with a 50W massively distorted Hiwatt guitar tube amp (originally a 100W, modded to work at half power) with a 4x 12" Marshall cab, another bass player with a 100W Carlsbro tube amp and a 2x 15" cab, and a seriously hard hitting drummer, and even to fill up small venues without PA support. Though I am pretty sure it had to do with the kind of really upper mids heavy, overdriven, and very little bass heavy tone of my bass that I used for that band, utilizing the active HPF/LPF circuit of that particular bass's stock preamp, to actually cut some of the lowest bass frequency content out of the signal, before the amp, since as said, I had more of a lead bass role, while the other bass player mainly took care of a bit more traditional supporting bass role. And I did also push that 60W B15-S Ampeg tube amp with the 1X15" cab to it's absolute maximum), me being stupid enough though to later sell both amp and bass (the Jerry Jones one, still own my Aria Pro II), which I still to this day regret.

A combo (my Jerry Jones Longhorn with it's 2 lipstick tube pickups in series + my Ampeg B15-S 60W tube amp with a 1x 15" flip top cab), that  I otherwise also used in another band, that I joined a while after I had left Menfolk, but that I also eventually left, though this time without any regrets whatsoever, due to it taking a musical turn from originally being a quite noise rock influenced and somewhat experimentally minded band to a much more commercial minded direction, I just couldn't see myself in such a band, even if they did get a record deal and they too played at the Roskilde Festival after I had left, I still have or have had absolutely no regrets about that decision, the way their music eventually turned out just wasn't me at all.

A funny story though from that band, after a quite jazzy bass solo I did on one of their tracks (I think one of the only times where I actually utilized the Longhorn's 24th fret), the lead vocalist/rhythm guitarist in jest began referring to me as  Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, though also meant as a genuine compliment to my bass playing skills, and I guess partially as a comment on the kind of sound that semi hollow body Jerry Jones had, even with roundwound strings and it's pickups wired in series, as well,  Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, in case you don't know, being the name of an internationally famous Danish double bass jazz player. 

 

Anyway, that's where my love for short scale basses started, with that Jerry Jones Longhorn, which is also the most expensive bass I've ever owned (they costed 1200$ from new, I think about 20 years ago, when they were still in production, though I got a discount on mine, since it had been used as a display model).

Unfortunately I got no pictures of it.

 

Just love the effortless playability of short scales, and with the right one, to me at least, there is no disadvantages to the shorter scale, only advantages.

 

So a while after having been stupid enough to sell my Jerry Jones Lomghorn bass the cravings eventually came back for owning and playing a short scale bass again, in the meantime mostly having focused on playing guitar, which was actually the original first instrument I started out learning how to play, even if bass then later becoming my main instrument of choice, and really had been for a while at that point too, just all the while continuing to play guitar on the sideline, and in shorter periods of time having guitar take back most of my focus from playing bass.

So the first short scale I bought after that was a cheap Höfner Beatles/violin bass knockoff, forgot the brandname,  West...something, I think, but never really liked it, so that was a relatively short acquaintance, even if it despite being a cheap budget knockoff actually was quite well constructed and pretty much sounded exactly like such a bass is supposed to, just discovered that that type of bass definitely isn't, or ever will be, for me, after that then I bought a used Ampeg Dan Armstrong Plexi Bass, that I actually got cheap, relatively compared to what the used prices usually are, and was at that point too, for those basses, which, even if being a considerable higher end bass than that cheap Höfner knockoff, and generally being a highly regarded instrument, wasn't to my liking either, neither liked how it felt in my hands and played or the tone of it, no matter which of the two slide in interchangeable pickups, that it came with when I bought it, I used, so hat became a fairly short acquaintance as well.

And like with the Jerry Jones Longhorn I don't actually got any pictures of those 2 basses either.

 

Eventually though I then decided to have a 28 5/8" scale bass made out of Warmoth baritone parts, with a Seymour Duncan Rickenbacker Neck replacement pickup placed in the neck position, and a Seymour Duncan Hot Rails guitar Strat humbucker pickup in the bridge. that one I loved, especially how it sounded, a very clear articulate tone, with a quite piano like quality to it.

This one (designed the headstock myself, which admittedly I may have went a little over board with ), mahogany body, maple neck, and a 24 fret, rosewood, as far as I recall it, fretboard :

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to sell that one too.

 

But currently I am very happy with my two lowly but absolutely lovely Ibanez Mikro basses, one black 4 string GSRM20 Mikro Bass, my main, from the December 2010 production (owned since April 2011, bought new), that I baptized "Dud Bottomfeeder", with various visual mods, and with a just freshly installed all new DiMarzio Model P pickup wired directly to the output jack socket, the J pickup from the P/J EMG Geezer Butler set it had installed previously still sitting there, filling out the bridge pickup cavity, but lowered considerably and not being connected, or planed to be connected at any point, anymore, tuned in regular 4 string bass, E standard, tuning, here equipped with gauge 1.00 to .045 D'Addario nickle roundwound strings, though the plan is to have it strung up with a set of gauge  1.00 to .045 coated stainless steel Elixir strings soon, and then a black 5 string GSRM25 Mikro Bass, from last year's, January 2019, production (owned since September 2019, bought new), with various visual mods, it's two stock J pickups wired in series directly to the jack output socket, and strung up with the 5 thickets strings of an Ernie Ball set meant for Bass VI type instruments, gauge .090 to .030, tuned in F# standard, 2 half steps above E standard tuning, as in F#1 to D3 :

 

28,6" scale, 4 string, 22 medium fret, rosewood fretboard, on a bolt on maple neck, with a mahogany body :

 

28,6" scale, 5 string, 22 medium fret, jatoba fretboard, on a bolt on maple neck, with a poplar body :

 

Both those 2 Mikro basses I have been very lucky with, very well made, especially the 4 string has an extremely stable neck that holds tuning remarkably well, and as good as never needs truss rod adjustments (unless of course the string tension changes significantly, by different tunings or string gauges), even seems quite resistant to seasonal changes, despite living in a country where there can be some fairly serious seasonal dependent weather changes, the 5 string neck being a bit more sensitive, but still more stable than most other necks of the instruments I have owned through time, and both got as good as perfect fretwork from factory, being able to get exactly as low string action as I prefer, without any fret buzz whatsoever, with the 5 string Mikro even having truly remarkably, not only for a cheap budget bass, but really for any mass produced instrument at any price class, absolutely perfectly completely leveled fretwork, to a degree where I would be able to get right out ridiculous low string action on it if I really wanted that, both truly great instruments, despite them being cheap budget ones.

Though neither of those 2 basses quite beat the Jerry Jones Longhorn I once owned, but the 4 string Mikro is still one of my absolute favorite basses out of all the ones I've ever owned, in fact a clear, and actually pretty close, 2nd after that fabled Jerry Jones, and I have grown very attached to it and love it dearly, though I kind of would wish I had treated it less carelessly, not exactly a beauty, but damn does it sound great and feels as a true joy and just like home to play on for me.  

Even went as far as to name it, though that is something I otherwise never do with my instruments, to the, I guess little flattering, but quite punk rock-esque, and fitting for how it has turned out looking and it's status as a low end cheap budget bass, name: Dud Bottomfeeder.

Hey, I really like your former band! Been listening to colossus today.

Kind of a Shellac thing going on.

I thought this was an interesting video.

Before people start straw manning me, just wanna say, I know this isn't real science, despite the sciency-ness. And it's qualitative rather than quantitative. But its still interesting.

The only real observation was that having more material of any kind surrounding the bridge and pickups seemed to give better volume and sustain. No other real tonal differences were particularly apparent, even between chipboard and mahogany.

I'd like to see someone do the same thing, but play a single note rather than a chord, and do it 100 times with each body, and 10 different bodies of each wood, then look at the average waveforms in more detail, including isolating volume and sustain at specific frequency ranges.

Pickup position is probably even more of a factor than the pickups themselves.

All this stuff could be answered pretty definitively, if a bunch of people were prepared to invest enough time and money in it.

As a starting point though, you'd need to build a number of guitars from a material which is much more consistent than wood, and ideally one which you could alter the stiffness of. Some kind of plastic or resin probably.

And you'd need to install the same electronics (not just the same model, the actual same loom) in each guitar. 

You can also get nylon and rubber picks which are supposed to sound more like fingering.

More inspiration in terms of musicians who overcame physical limitations- Mike Ness from social distortion lost the use of his index finger on his fretting hand. Dave Mustaine suffered nerve damage and temporarily lost the use of his left hand, although I can't help but kind of wish he'd stayed retired...

Best of luck to you.

From my experience of watching loads of YouTube videos (lol), I reckon wood does have an effect on sound but there's loads of stuff that has much more of an effect - pickups, strings, bridge, scale length would be a few. And I reckon if we're talking about wood, the fretboard wood makes way more difference than the body.

Personally I prefer a pretty bright sound, cuz you can always take frequencies away, but you can't add em in.

I'd love an Aluminium necked bass. Big fan of Shellac, who used Travis Beans I think.

I don't know very much about the physics involved, and I'm certainly no expert on tone.

That said a couple of things seem obvious to me.

As somebody else said, pickups aren't microphones. They aren't in any way directly picking up vibrations happening in the wood of the body or the neck. They are just detecting the vibration of the strings.

However, the strings also aren't vibrating in complete isolation from any other part of the instrument, wood or otherwise. The strings, bridge, body, neck and fretboard are all part of a system, so it's reasonable to suggest that to some extent (how much is debatable, but its probably minimal), resonant characteristics of the wood could alter the vibration of the strings, and thus have an impact on the signal chain.

To the very small extent that this is likely to be taking place, it stands to reason that it should probably be taking place the most where the strings are in direct contact with the wood. Which probably explains why fretboard wood seems to have a more noticeable impact than body wood.

One thing I can't understand, maybe someone knows - given that the material of the body should have minimal impact, why do hollow body basses all have such a characteristic sound? 

Howdy.

I want a chorus pedal, and have very limited board space.

I know this is a guitar pedal, and as such there are very few bass focused reviews or demos.

Thought I'd solicit opinion from this community.

Does it work good for bass, and if not, what's a similarly tiny chorus that does?

For what it's worth I do like the sound of the CS mini when demod on guitar.

Cheers.