uncle psychosis

In fact, eBay themselves say that they won't help you if the buyer claims via PayPal: [size=3][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Buyers may still file a dispute using [/font][/color][url="https://www.paypal-marketing.co.uk/safetyadvice/ProtectionForBuyers.htm"]PayPal Buyer Protection[/url][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[b] If a buyer chooses to resolve the dispute through PayPal, then the eBay Buyer Protection Policy will not apply [/b](instead, PayPal Buyer Protection will apply).[/font][/color][/size] [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#paypal"]http://pages.ebay.co...ion.html#paypal[/url]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338587437' post='1677043'] But they do have seperate dispute resolution processes, the paypal one applies to both, but the ebay one only applies to ebay transactions, and ebay fully co-operate with paypal in the sense of releasing all information such as the transaction details. Like the bit that entirely lacks a mention of posting on this item, and all of the messages exchanged. [/quote] Go on then. Show me the bit of the ebay t&cs which says that in the case of cash and collection using paypal you will be covered if the buyer claims not to have received it. A few emails saying "yeah I'll come and pick it up" are not proof of delivery. The buyer can just say "I turned up to pick it up and no-one answered the door" and you're back to square one.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338585219' post='1676970'] With the Ebay protection (bearing in mind all the preceding stuff mentioned was paypal independent of ebay) you have the written agreement in the form of your invoice and payment details saying 'buyer to collect' plus all communication on record to back you up in case of issues, which makes it a pretty different deal to a pure paypal transaction, where its your word against theirs. [/quote] Paypal and eBay are not independent. They are owned by the same people. The cases I mentioned were ebay auctions where the buyer paid by paypal. Seeing as you were so keen on posting links earlier---please show me the part of eBay's t&cs which backs up your argument. Especially [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/seller-protection-faq.html#How%20are%20sellers%20protected%20from%20losing%20a%20case?"]given this entry from their FAQ[/url] [size=3][i][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For “item not received” cases, if sellers post the item within their stated handling time and provide a valid proof of delivery for the item, eBay is likely to decide in their favour.[/font][/color][/i] [color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][i]“Proof of delivery” is [b]online documentation[/b] from a postal company that includes [b]all of the following[/b]:[/i][/font][/color][/size][list] [*][size=3][i]A status of “delivered” (or equivalent in the country to which the item was delivered) and the date of delivery.[/i][/size] [*][size=3][i]The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).[/i][/size] [*][size=3][i]Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £150 or more.[/i][/size] [/list] Honestly, I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338584487' post='1676953'] If its on ebay, paypal has to be an option. [/quote] Another reason why paypal / ebay are not popular. They insist on making paypal a payment option but their protection policies mean that a seller who accepts paypal for a collection item is not necessarily protected. Its a nasty catch-22 that is well documented. Personally speaking, if I was selling something high value cash-on-collection I would insist on the buyer paying cash. I'd rather take the feedback/fees hit than risk getting scammed.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338576124' post='1676770'] buyer protection doesn't apply when an item is collected by the buyer. [/quote] Yes. It. Does. As I posted before: www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/27/is-paypal-safe-protection [i]Anthony Lodge from Harlow, Essex, is one victim of PayPal's policy. [b]Back in November the self-employed chemist sold his Apple MacBook Pro on eBay for £650. The buyer made a payment via PayPal. Two days later the "buyer" picked up the laptop[/b], and left positive feedback on Lodge's eBay account.[/i] [i]"I didn't get him to sign anything as I had the money in my account and assumed the deal had been completed," he says.[/i] [i]However, six weeks later he received an email from PayPal telling him that the account holder had disputed the transaction, and it was investigating. [b]Ten days on, PayPal informed him it had refunded the buyer from his account because he hadn't sent the laptop by recorded delivery and therefore "had no proof of delivery".[/b][/i] Or as Johnston posted before, direct from a paypal employee: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Holds-reversals-and-reserves/collection-scam/m-p/354004/highlight/true#M2978 [i][b]you should really consider asking for cash on collection if a buyer wants to collect an item from you. If a case is filed and you are requested to provide proof to show where the item is, you wouldn't be able to provide us with any information and it could result in the payment being refunded back to the buyer.[/b][/i]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338573812' post='1676720'] The buyer trusts the courier, its them that is contracting with them. That makes it exactly the same situation as if they sent any other third party, except with the additional guarantee of a recognised name of the courier, and the requirement for them to leave paperwork. [/quote] Thats all well and good, but as has been pointed out repeatedly---paypal themselves make it clear that you are not covered as a seller in this scenario. [quote]If you make yourself difficult to deal with deliberately, that is the whole point of the feedback system. [/quote] If anyone is being difficult to deal with here it is the buyer. And sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers. If it were a small, easily packaged item, or the buyer had asked before the auction ended if it would be ok, then I would be sympathetic with his position. But bidding on a large, heavy, and awkward sized item that explicitly says "collection in person" on it and then expecting the seller to go to the hassle of packing it, as well as leaving themselves open to a possible paypal scam, is just too much.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1338558641' post='1676346'] I had that once when buying a PA, in all fairness it turned out they were fuming because the supplier was messing them about. Granted perhaps it shouldn't have said "7-14days" or whatever but they can't predict a supplier not holding up their side of the bargain. [/quote] Thats fine, but they could have told me that rather than continually fobbing me off with "next week, honest" when in truth they had absolutely no idea when they were getting any. Honesty would have got them patience, fobbing me off led to a cancelled order and an extreme reluctance to buy from them again.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338571882' post='1676689'] I've had a guy not be in when I arrived to collect, he delivered next day and paid for time. [/quote] Good stuff. I've paid for stuff by PayPal gift and it turned up fine. Doesn't mean I wasn't leaving myself open to being ripped off. In an ideal world everyone would be honest and it would be great. But sadly its not an ideal world and there are many people out there who have fallen foul of paypal / ebay rules and dishonest buyers. It just doesn't seem worth it for £50 (less fees, etc).

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338570943' post='1676659'] And when an item is collected, you get a receipt for it, that's your proof of delivery, into the hands of the buyers agent. [/quote] If that were the case then unscrupulous sellers could rip off buyers even more easily. Buyer pays by paypal Seller pockets cash Buyer arranges to pickup item Seller doesn't turn up at designated meeting point Buyer contacts paypal saying "I never got my item" Seller provides "receipt" saying item handed over or posted to some random address (which they claim buyer asked them to do in a phone call) What then?

[quote]. Post links to paypal saying otherwise. [/quote] Read Johnston's posts! Or https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=MFyyPL1YpLcThfjc9cV30KPspN1Jg7lm713nRcqJPt5sQbYKfXY2!460627812?locale=en_GB&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=GB&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9010&t=solutionTab&ft=searchTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=163593&isSrch=Yes What do I need to ensure I'm covered by seller protection?[list] [*][b]Post to the address provided in the "Details" link in your account history[/b] [*][b]Retain proof of delivery that can be tracked online[/b], such as Royal Mail’s Recorded Delivery. [b]If your buyer picks the item up in person or you cannot provide proof of delivery that can be tracked online, your transaction will not qualify.[/b] This includes items posted with first class postage [*]For items with a value of £150 or more, you need to provide proof of signature from the recipient [/list] If the buyer arranges their own courier you can't guarantee that it will go to the "correct" address, nor can you guarantee that it is a trackable shipment. I'm glad you've done this in the past and it worked out for you, but that doesn't mean that someone wasn't taking a risk somewhere.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338569775' post='1676632'] This isn't the seller posting. [/quote] Paypal won't give a crap about that. Thats the point. If the buyer pays by paypal the seller has to be able to prove that the item was delivered to the buyer's registered address. Saying "but their courier came to collect it" is not proof. Its stupid. But thats the way paypal work. And its one reason why people hate them. Using your own logic---You say that giving an item to a courier is no different to giving it directly to the seller. Fair enough. But as per Johnston's posts---Paypal themselves say that if you participate in a "collection" sale then you should only accept cash because their seller protection will not cover you. If you accept paypal as a payment method then the only surefire way to protect yourself is to courier the item yourself. Its stupid, but thats the way it is. Yes, you might have done it, and yes, it might have worked out---but if you get a dishonest buyer you open yourself to a world of hurt.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338569535' post='1676624'] That's not different from them picking it up, and driving to a different address. If you have a collection note with the appropriate details, thats it, take a copy, send to ebay. [/quote] You're confusing "what ebay should do" with "what ebay will do" I'm afraid. If a buyer raises an "item not received" claim then you need to be able to prove that the item was delivered to their registered delivery address. You can have all the collection notes you want, but if you don't have POD to the registered paypal address then they won't cover you. Paypal are pretty explicit about this.

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1338569310' post='1676616'] With UPS if you get the tracking number [no hassle at all] then the address actually delivered to can be proven. [/quote] To be covered by Paypal you have to post to the buyers registered address. proof of delivery to any other address isn't good enough. It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338568890' post='1676609'] When a carrier colelcts, they leave a receipt copy of the note, with the delivery address on it, if it doesn't match, then don't hand it over. I've been through the process of having a collect only item collected by my courier many times. A friend did so and it got damaged due to poor packing. Ebay sided with the seller, even though they were a bit of a crazy. [/quote] Yes, but if the address the item is being sent to the buyers registered Ebay address do not match then the seller will not be covered. When selling via Paypal/Ebay the seller has to be able to prove that the item got to the buyers registered address in one piece. If someone else is arranging the courier then the seller no longer has control of where it goes. For items that get damaged, you're going to have to deal with the lottery of a decision being made by Paypal-Ebay-the courier as to whose fault it was.

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1338568165' post='1676587'] 5 minutes with 10 metres of bubble wrap and some gaffer tape should do the trick [/quote] I don't know about you but I don't have 10 metres of bubble wrap lying around. And with a full time job and a young family finding time to get 10 metres of bubble wrap would not be simple. Why do you expect a seller to jump through a million hoops all so some chancer of a buyer can get a bargain at his expense?

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338567795' post='1676576'] Refusal to co-operate with an entirely reasonable request to act through the buyer's agent is cheerfully grounds for a neutral feedback. [/quote] We clearly have very different definitions of "reasonable request". Boxes big/strong enough to protect a 4x10 are neither cheap nor commonplace. If it was an effects pedal you might have a point---but expecting someone to box a 410 for courier collection (out of their own pocket!!) is by no means "reasonable"

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1338567634' post='1676572'] He doesn't though. Let UPS collect as is...it's not the seller's responsibility once UPS has collected. [/quote] I'm afraid thats nonsense. If the seller doesn't pack the item properly for a courier then paypal will side with the buyer if it gets damaged.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338567416' post='1676565'] Buyer is fully entitled to leave a neutral feedback, probably a reasonably worded bad one, and if they don't co-operate, ebay will keep the selling fees. [/quote] No they're not. The auction clearly says "collection in person". Not "I'll spend my own time, effort and money to ensure this thing survives being couriered and then hand it over to your courier, in person".

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1338566799' post='1676549'] What's the difference between the buyer collecting and UPS collecting? NOTHING [/quote] You mean apart from the seller having to spend his own time, effort, and money to find suitable packing materials and then pack the damn thing (not cheap for a 4x10) and then take a hit on the paypal fees when the guy pays by paypal rather than handing over £50 in person? Yeah, other than that its not much different.

Anyway, back to the OP. If you sell it to this guy, you're going to have to take a hit on the paypal fees, then pay for packaging yourself, go to the hassle of packing it and waiting for a courier to collect it, and all for a measly £50. If you relist it, with couriering as an option, you can get the buyer to pay all the associated costs of shipping and if couriering is an option you will, more than likely, make a fair bit more than £50. Or, you can relist it again as collection only but with a reserve. Selling it to this guy is probably the worst thing you can do!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338565897' post='1676521'] Don't need to prove delivery on a collected item. If the buyer arranges collection, then the collection is where sellers responsibility ends. Nothing to do with evading ebay and paypal rules. [/quote] Yes, but how do you prove to ebay/paypal that the item was ever collected? If they pay by paypal and then claim they didn't get it for whatever reason then you're opening yourself to a lot of hassle at best and the loss of your item and your cash at worst. Its not worth the risk. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/27/is-paypal-safe-protection ^^ cases where sellers got screwed by paypal / cash on collection.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338563978' post='1676458'] That doesn't affect the responsibility of the seller to ensure delivery once it is out of their hands. I sent my mum to collect an amp I bought on ebay, if she lost it on the way, its nothing to do with the seller. [/quote] if she paid cash, then you are right. If you pay by Paypal then unless the seller can prove delivery then they leave themselves open to a scam. I'd relist it. It will cost you time and money to pack it. the buyer is a chancer!

I've [i]tried[/i] to buy stuff from DV247 on two occasions. Both times turned into "where's your order? well, erm, we're really sorry but we'll definitely be getting some tomorrow and it'll get out to you straight away. What? Someone told you that last week? And the week before that? And a fortnight previously? " etc. Once, I can forgive. Twice was unforgivable. If you can't get stock just say so. Making empty promises just pisses people off.

I don't understand how they managed to make a surf green precision ugly

If you have a PA system then don't bother with a backup amp. Just get a DI box/preamp instead.