EssentialTension

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='903077' date='Jul 23 2010, 12:25 PM']Recently, most shocked while learning While My Guitar Gently Weeps, to discover where JPJ got the middle of Babe I'm Gonna Leave you from. Seriously, crank the bass on that track, stupidly heavy, and its Macca.[/quote] Read your post and then listened to While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Brilliant, I'm smiling big time. Now listening to Happiness is a Warm Gun and still smiling. I'm sure lots of the White Album, especially McCartney's bass, is a massive influence on later heavy rock.

[quote name='purpleblob' post='903064' date='Jul 23 2010, 12:19 PM']Just popped over from the Macca thread where I was also extolling Jamerson. Could this be a thread where everyone agree's on a great bassist (or have I just jinxed it) [/quote] Animosity towards Jamerson doesn't exist in the same way animosity to McCartney does. Nonetheless, no doubt, someone is thinking 'Motown? Jamerson? It's s**t'.

For me, another thing about McCartney's bass playing is that he sometimes has a tuba-like feel. I suspect that's the English popular music influence (as opposed to the American Rock & Roll and Rhythm & Blues) that is found in a lot of Beatles songs - northern brass bands, music hall, that sort of thing.

[quote name='steve-soar' post='901464' date='Jul 21 2010, 11:33 PM']He is the master.[/quote] Yes.

[quote name='purpleblob' post='903021' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:49 AM']I personally think Jamerson is often forgotten about. I think (if my poor old memory is still working) Carol Kaye was also around then and doing some good stuff also.[/quote] Carole Kaye is on much of the Beach Boys material, so yes. Joe Osborn and Duck Dunn and lots of other session players no doubt were influences too, including John Paul Jones in the UK. But I also suspect that some influence went the other way, particularly to younger up and coming players. [quote name='purpleblob' post='903021' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:49 AM']But like I said, whilst Macca isn't my idea of a great bassist, all that matters is really whether you like listening to him. And yes, I totally agree with you - I'm pretty sure I read that Macca was heavily influenced by Jamerson (I believe he mentioned it in an interview for some magazine a fair while back, and who wouldn't have been ).[/quote] In the [i]Standing in the Shadows of Motown[/i] book, McCartney says about Jamerson: "... his style of bass playing for Motown was one of my major influences when I was learning electric bass".

[quote name='SteveO' post='902997' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:28 AM']Watched an ad for an Audi estate last night. Nowhere was the word "Car" mentioned. I wonder how many people are wandering round in a state of bewilderment this morning wondering if it was a car or a van?[/quote] I used to have a Vauxhall Astra 1.8SXI estate car. I took it to get a new exhuast fitted. When the guy had it up on his ramp and he was underneath he said 'You know, don't you, that this is just a Bedford van with rear windows, a back seat, and a sports injection engine?'. I loved that [s]car[/s] van.

[quote name='purpleblob' post='902988' date='Jul 23 2010, 11:24 AM']I once had a long discussion/argument back in the days of the newsgroups (on the internet) with fellow bass players regarding Paul McCartney. My personal opinion is that he was a massively influential song writer and the Beatles were equally a massively influential band, but he was not then and is not now a great bassist. [b]At the time I personally think Jamerson was light years ahead of him in every single aspect of bass playing.[/b] But, and this is where my fellow newsgroup posters missed the point, just because I don't rate him as a great player does not mean I think he's rubbish either. If you like his style of playing, that's great, for me it lacked creativity - but that's just me To me McCartney was and is primarily a songwriter, and secondly a bassist and there's nothing whatsoever wrong with that.[/quote] I think you're correct about Jamerson and I suspect McCartney himself might well agree. Many 60s bass players, including McCartney, would have been listening to Jamerson and trying to learn from him.

[quote name='bobpalt' post='902931' date='Jul 23 2010, 10:42 AM']One would think so, but I have moved onwards and upwards from the original title of the thread.[/quote] Perhaps you should change the thread title to 'Actually not neo tone after all'.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']Steve-soar to name but one other?[/quote] Well, I don't see it, but Steve can respond if he wants to. Who else? Remember you said: 'Never in my life have I seen [u][b]so many patronising tw@ts all in one thread[/b][/u].' There must be quite a few people. [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']No it doesn't, not if you make [b][u]the automatic assumption that what he did is liked[/u][/b]?[/quote] I didn't make the 'automatic assumption that what he did is liked', it is exactly what you said: [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM']If everyone [u][b]liked[/b][/u] what he or any other individual player did in the past in would surely stifle progression or development of the many and varied musical genre that have followed since.[/quote] Now you say: [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']But if someone was to [u][b]dislike[/b][/u] what he did then they'd develop their own alternative, different style, sound, writing, horizons & so music evolves.[/quote] So the different issue you now raise seems to be 'does music evolve by rejecting the past or by building on the past?'. I'd say music evolves in both of those ways and new things happen at least as often when something old is rediscovered as when something old is rejected. [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902747' date='Jul 23 2010, 03:17 AM']Which is only what I'm looking for, opinions voiced without the author having it implied that they're tasteless, thick, unknowing or anything else. If something doesn't float your boat that's cool no matter what. If it wasn't the case we'd all be shaking our heads about, shouting "woo, woo" with one eyebrow up in the air wouldn't we? [/quote] I can't see that the response that you are referring to did anything but state (quite calmy really) a reasonable opinion in response to a strongly worded opinion from someone else. It was nothing.

[quote name='4000' post='902787' date='Jul 23 2010, 08:15 AM']Personally I don't thnk Pino suits the Who at all, so it's horses for courses. I also love pretty much every permutation of John's sound (the T-Bird sound least though) but I [i]like[/i] the "guitar" part of "bass guitar".[/quote] I realise my view is outside the mainstream. I've got nothing against Entwistle, he was a very creative player and his lines are essential to the Who. It's only the tone I have trouble with.

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='902739' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:49 AM']... claiming to be better than Paul McCartney ...[/quote] If anyone started telling me that they were better than (insert any name here) I would immediately think 'I doubt it' and the bigger the name the more I would doubt it. Anyone who might really be considered better than (insert any name here) wouldn't need to say it.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='902732' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:18 AM']I never understood John Entwhistle. I sounded fairly good when all I had to spend on an amp was a hundred quid. Meanwhile he had practically unlimited funds and a rig half the size of Wembley and still routinely sounded like sh*t. But he was good, right? He also played sh*t-looking basses, so he could look like sh*t while he sounded like sh*t. I know he's dead and all but seriously he's one of the shittest-sounding and shittest-looking bassists ever. Meanwhile McCartney managed to sound good on every record I've ever heard him on, and he wrote all the Beatles' best songs. Making him f***ing loads better than John Entwhistle at basically everything except being a pretentious pointy-guitared twat.[/quote] Firmly put, I think. I saw the Who with Pino Palladino playing bass a few years ago. For me his tone was so much preferable to Entwistle's and made the band sound better. Heresy maybe, but there it is.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM']Not in the thread title I'm seeing on my monitor it isn't. And since when is an opinion such as the one you quoted in need of any kind of "roasting" at all?[/quote] I realise this point is not directed at me, but I have to say that the response was much less aggressive, in my view, than what was responded to. [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM'][b]Essential Tension[/b], not what I said. Or are the thought police alive & well on this forum & any answer other than the stock deification of the guy not allowed?[/quote] I've not seen any 'stock deification' here, are we reading the same thread? I've also not seen any 'thought police'. You do seem to think someone (i.e. LC) shouldn't have said what they said. You also said 'Never in my life have I seen so many patronising tw@ts all in one thread'. I take it from what you say (quoted below) about my answers that you may not have meant me, but it certainly sounded like you meant several people. [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM']FWIW so far as I noticed most of your answers have been reasoned opinions of your own. Personally he does nothing for me whatsoever either in music-style, ability or personality so far as I've bothered to take in; despite which I do have a small number of Beatles CDs for the odd track or three. Of his era I would put the Stones ahead in listenability (even if it was a word) and excitement. And would put Chuck Berry & Bo Diddley way ahead in creating rock music as we know it today rather than what the Beatles did after them.[/quote] Fair enough, I wouldn't disagree that Berry and Diddley and the Stones, and many many others, are very important and I suspect McCartney would agree too. However, I think the influence of the Beatles and of McCartney are massive. I don't see that as a competitive claim. Lots of others are extremely influential too. [quote name='Big_Stu' post='902731' date='Jul 23 2010, 02:17 AM'][size=7]BUT[/size] (obligatory) If everyone liked what he or any other individual player did in the past in would surely stifle progression or development of the many and varied musical genre that have followed since.[/quote] I don't see why that would be the case even if everyone did like McCartney (or whoever). If I like someone's playing, even if I am influenced by them, why on earth would that stifle me. It doesn't follow.

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='902708' date='Jul 23 2010, 01:49 AM']It's a thread about loving McCartney. It stands to reason that if you refer to him as a twat and go on slagging him off then you're going to get minced. If he'd said something like 'I'm not a fan of McCartney, but each to their own' etc. then it wouldn't have merited the same roasting.[/quote] The phrase actually used - i.e. 'most pub players including my humble self are light years in front of [McCartney]' - could easily go in Basschat's Famous Quotes thread. It was definitely a bit of a roaster itself.

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='902697' date='Jul 23 2010, 01:35 AM']Never in my life have I seen so many patronising tw@ts all in one thread. Is no-one allowed to have their own opinion on this forum without being slagged for it?[/quote] So, you appear to be thinking that some people should not be allowed to state their opinion?

[quote name='Mr Fudge' post='902671' date='Jul 23 2010, 01:01 AM']Most pub players including my humble self are light years in front of this raven haired twat. He has grasped defeat from the jaws of victory with over 30 years of solo pap. I would like to bring Neil Young to the witness stand to show the world how to remain a dignified artist over 40+ years. As for the 60's ??? I'm no expert but I seem to remember a nifty player called the ox? Not popular I know ... but I just can't see it. I suppose Phil Collins is a great drummer? [/quote] Correct, Collins is a very good drummer.

[quote][b]George Martin[/b] "There's no doubt that Lennon and McCartney were good musicians. They had good musical brains, and the brain is where music originates - it has nothing to do with your fingers. As it happened, they could also play their own instruments very well. And since those early days they've all improved, especially Paul. He's an excellent musical all-rounder, probably the best bass-guitarist there is, a first-class drummer, brilliant guitarist and competent piano player." [b]Sting[/b] "It's hard to separate McCartney's influence on my bass playing from his influence on everything else-singing, songwriting, even becoming a musician in the first place. As a child, I would play my Beatles albums at 45 RPM so I could hear the bass better. He's the Guvnor." [b]Will Lee[/b] "Growing up in Texas in the early '60s I was so obsessed with the Beatles' music that I didn't feel like a fan, I felt like I was in the Beatles. About the same time I switched from drums to bass I became aware of who gave the band its charm and personality, from visual tunes like "Penny Lane" to the group's repartee with the press. It was the same fellow who was able to take a poor-quality instrument like the Hofner bass and create magic on it. I especially dug Paul's funky, Motown-influenced side, evident in the bass line from Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey," or even in the syncopated part from "A Day In The Life. Paul's influence on bassists has been so widespread over numerous generations that there's no denying he's in everybody's playing at this point. We're all descendants. He played simple and solid when it was called for. But because he had so many different flavors to add to a song, he was able to take the instrument far beyond a supportive role. Paul taught the bass how to sing." [b]Stanley Clarke[/b] "Paul definitely had an influence on my bass playing, not so much technically, but more with his philosophy of melodic bass lines - especially as I hit my teens and the Beatles' records became more adventurous. On tracks like "Come Together," the bass line WAS the song. I've always liked that. The only other person I knew of who was doing that was James Jamerson. That was one of the reasons I was inspired to write "School Days": so I could just play the bass lines and people would hear a whole song. I had the honor of being contacted by Paul through George Martin to play on Tug of War, and I also appeared on Pipes of Peace [both on Capitol]. Paul was very nice. He asked me to show him how to slap. During Pipes we got a groove going in a studio jam, and it ended up making on the album as "Hey Hey." He graciously gave me a co-writing credit, and it's still a thrill to see my name next to his above the music in the song book." [b]Billy Sheehan[/b] "The reason I got involved with music in the first place was because I saw the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. I watched all the girls going crazy, and I figured this was the best business in the world to be in. Later on, when I got more deeply into music, Sgt. Pepper was a break-through record for me. I must have listened to it several hundred times. What intrigued me was how totally musical every aspect of it was, especially Paul's melodic, fluid bass lines. When my band Talas was starting in the mid '70s, [the Beatles' tribute show] Beatlemania was big, and we used to play entire gigs of just Beatles tunes. I've learned so much from Paul about playing, writing, and playing and singing at the same time that I should probably start sending him checks. Most bassists get into the flashy players, but I think the reason Paul is often overlooked is that what he was doing wasn't really obvious. It was so brilliantly woven into the context of the songs. One of my favorites is the bass line from "Rain." I still use it to test the low end of an amp. That Paul happens to play bass is a great boon to all of us, because he made us realize that there are no limitations to being a bass player." [b]John Lennon[/b] "Paul was one of the most innovative bass players ever. And half the stuff that is going on now is directly ripped off from his Beatles period." [url="http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/paulbass.htm"]Source[/url][/quote]

[quote name='pietruszka' post='902499' date='Jul 22 2010, 11:04 PM']Im gonna be a pain here. I personally can not stand the man. I think he is unbearably arrogant, obnoxious and the stingiest man alive. Solid bass player but have never liked what he's done. He's not for me. Please, this is just my opinion. I favour other bass players. For fear of causing an uproar, this is only my opinion. Dan[/quote] Fair enough but the thread was about his bass playing not his alleged obnoxious stinginess or his supposed unbearable arrogance.

Just listening to the White Album: Dear Prudence - excellent bass line, Glass Onion - excellent bass line.

[quote name='steve-soar' post='902460' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:42 PM']Macca played original basslines, in an originals band, that just happened to make a connection with 1000's of bass players.[/quote] And, one might add, an originals band that operated in and across a range of musical genres.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='902365' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:16 PM']On the early Beatles songs - which were my era - I can't hear anything special at all. I've often heard people mention him, but can't hear anything different from the other 60s bands. Please enlighten me to something that he did that was special.[/quote] I'm not sure how late counts as early but here's a little selection of early ones (all pre-Pepper I think) that I rate but you may not: Rain Paperback Writer Drive My Car All My Loving Nowhere Man In My Life Taxman I'm Only Sleeping She Said She Said Penny Lane On the matter of other British 60s bassists, I think it's worth remembering the extent to which many of them will have been influenced by McCartney, as well as being influenced by the people who would have influenced McCartney. My other favourite 60s 'pop' bassist was Chris White of the Zombies.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='902362' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:11 PM']Trying to bend the point there. Take away the 'bass' part and it ceases to apply.[/quote] I think it applies exactly.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='902340' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:48 PM']That leaves you open to 'the bass is a guitar, just like the double bass is a violin'.[/quote] Yes, correct, the bass guitar is a bass guitar and the double bass, as it's commonly known, is a bass viol.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='902301' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:17 PM']MCartney was a guitarist, just the least good one in the Beatles.[/quote] I think you'll find that was probably Lennon.

[quote name='Doddy' post='902328' date='Jul 22 2010, 08:38 PM']Everyone knows who he is,but let's be honest,the vast majority of people don't know that he plays bass. I quite like some of his playing. I'm no means a massive fan but I like what he does. To me,he plays bass like a singer,as in he plays phrases that are very vocal like. [b]At least he did in the late Beatles period,which is when,I think, his playing peaked. Post-Beatles he did some nice stuff (Silly Love Songs),but nothing as prominent as his Beatles work.[/b][/quote] I'd agree that's the peak period but also some earlier Beatles things such as Taxman, Rain, All My Loving, I'm Only Sleeping.