endorka

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='1081152' date='Jan 7 2011, 02:54 PM']Bizarrely my singers old upright bassist used to go around London on the tube with his on the shoulder straps which is impressive to say the least![/quote] I do this on the Glasgow underground, although it is advisable to remove the instrument from your back before boarding the train, or indeed before going through doorways or under low bridges :-) Avoidance of rush hour is also a good idea, if possible. I've walked (literally) miles with the DB on my back. It looks more difficult than it actually is, and you find yourself constantly amused with comments about the "big guitar" and so on :-) Jennifer

All these suggestions are good in my experience, I also regularly hire a Ford Ka, and the double bass fits in just fine, as Doddy suggests. Plenty room also for a 1x10 combo, stool bag, and some other bits and pieces, and a passenger. I live in a city centre flat without a parking space so it is expensive/impractical to own a car. Because of this I either use public transport, which is surprisingly ok, or hire a car where necessary and the gig pays well. You can hire a small car for about £20 per day, thus the experience with the Ford Ka in the above paragraph. I've also had other small cars, such as the new mini, which also worked fine, and was able to accomodate a keyboard player and his keyboard as well. A five door Corsa is really good, and when you get into longer cars such as a Mondeo it works really well. Jennifer

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='1076287' date='Jan 3 2011, 02:04 PM']What I have come to realise that I might be less good at is locking in with drummers whose timing isn't spot on and drifts about a bit. There's no point fighting it as you just don't sound tight. I'm not sure what the answer to that is and/or if rigorous metronome / drump-loop training would help...[/quote] I tend to find that if the drummer in question has a reasonable musical sense and his ears & mind open, it is possible to influence his time for the better if you keep your own timing solid. As you point out, you can't always rely on this though. Jennifer

I agree Joe, having thought about this it is more a matter of different perspectives than anything else. I agree that such a rule has no place in a harmony textbook, for example, but as a guideline for someone playing basslines in a soul band or motown band, for example, it may find applicability. Perhaps I should explain more where I am coming from in this. I love speaking to other musicians and finding out the rules and heuristics they have developed; these are not always totally correct or complete in a "book learning" sense, or even outwith that player's speciality, but often offer insights that have value. Another recent one was from a bass player that plucks near the bridge when in the lower bass register, but plucks over the neck when playing in the upper octave of the instrument. This suprised me as it runs counter to the thinking one uses for bow placement on a double bass, but it certainly achieves a characteristic sound. Having reviewed a couple of my recent recordings, I've found the odd major 3rd scattered around. One doesn't sound cheesy at all, in fact it is rather dark. The chord sequence is D, D/C#, Bm, G A. The usual bassline is D, C#, B, G A, but as a variation before going into a different section I play D, F#, B, G, A. That F# really makes a huge difference and a considerable musical statement. Does the F# being the 3rd of an inversion of D major 7th make a difference, you think? Also, I note that there is a strong resolution in the bassline in this case going from the F# to the B of B minor. Jennifer [quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073681' date='Dec 31 2010, 01:41 PM']This is really a matter of taste on your part, so there really isn't any need to run around in circles here. [b]It is a fact harmonically that the third works over a major chord in any context.[/b] As I have said before, thousands of bass lines, melodies and solos prove this. You could say a little golden nugget is to always play the root and fifth over any chord. There are plenty of players who do this; you could also argue that they are "soulful" because of it. But really this is a limiting belief that really needs correcting when teaching others. Best Joe[/quote]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073619' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:17 PM']The quote that you posted of Carol Kaye’s does not subscribe to avoiding the 3rd. Only Carol Kaye would be able to clarify what she actually meant; you see- that’s the trouble with passing on second hand information.[/quote] I am certain I have other teaching material where she said to avoid the major third in basslines, unless playing reggae. I don't have time at the moment to look for this - it may be in a video, for example - but when I come across the reference I'll post it, even if I am wrong :-) [quote]As for the notion that the 3rd can or should only be used as a passing tone or part of a chromatic line is nonsense and incorrect harmonically- period.[/quote] I agree that it is not universally applicable. But to say that it is nonsense and incorrect - period - i.e. all the time, is also flawed. In my studies of basslines I have noticed that many do emphasise use of the major 6th rather than the major 3rd, particularly those around Carol Kaye's time. In my opinion, basslines constructly thusly tend to sound more "soulful", for want of a better word. For example, I've found it very frequently used in chord progressions going from the tonic major (e.g. C major) to ii minor (e.g D minor), where the 5th and 6th of the major chord become the 4th and fifth of the minor chord. Sure, it is not the only way to negotiate this progression, but it does seem to be used a lot. So, it is a useful rule of thumb for creating rock/pop/soul basslines. [quote]I reiterate the thousands of musical references that refute this not to mention using the third to re-harmonize a chord progression. You say that a statement so concise can be correct so often? The problem with this “little nugget of wisdom” is that it is clearly incorrect.[/quote] Again, I feel incorrect is too strong a word. I'm happy to concede that it is only appropriate to certain genres of music, and not to others. Your mention of chord progression re-harmonization could arguably be said to fall into similar terriory; great in some contexts, but in my experience it has limited acceptance in most pop music. Jennifer

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073460' date='Dec 31 2010, 09:03 AM']Okay, but from this quote she does not say to avoid the 3rd. If her (or your) interpretation of the use of a major third over a Major chord is corny or hokey, then that comes down to a personal taste issue which is an entirely different argument, but to turn it into a rule is foolhardy to say the least.[/quote] Not really Joe - my recollection is that she does say elsewhere to avoid using the major 3rd as a component of basslines, and a refinement of her statement is that it is ok as a passing note in the context of chromatic runs. I don't have a huge vested interest in defending her in this; it is just what she said, and it would appear that someone else, for better or worse, has also been privy to her statment on this, independently of me. It is unlikely we would both have imagined it! I think you are reading a little too much into this to be honest, it was not intended as a hard and steadfast rule that will always work no matter what, rather as a "nugget as wisdom". As I mentioned before, what impressed me is that a statement so concise can be correct so often. Jennifer

Perhaps I should clarify I like about Carol Kaye's major third "rule". It is not that it is an infallible rule, clearly there are exceptions that demonstrate that this is not the case. It is that such a seemingly simplistic rule can have such a wide applicability. In other words, it is a very good heuristic, or rule of thumb. I have found that many experienced players build up several of these heuristics, and this is often what gives them their signature sound. They seem to understand a subset of music to a very high degree, but the means by which they do this is often deceptively simple. Please note that I am not saying this knowledge is easy to come by, quite the opposite. It frequently seems to come from experience rather than an academic background, but is certainly no less valulable for doing so. Jennifer

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1072934' date='Dec 30 2010, 05:42 PM']In a pop/funk context it is common place for people to subtract the major 7th and replace it with the major 6th.[/quote] We are all agreed on this, at least! [quote]I can't imagine Carol Kaye advising not to use the major third over a major chord type. It is just kindergarden theory. Not to mention all the bass lines that she claimed to have played are loaded with root, third, double chromatic to the fifth. Of course the 6th over a Dominant 7th chord is really a chord tension that is commonly reffered to as tension 13.[/quote] I've just checked some of her teaching material. While I cannot find the explicit reference to the major 3rd, there is this: "For Rock and some Pop styles of playing, the most commonly used contemporary bass notes you use for these different chords are... MAJOR - Root, 5th and 6th (also: 3rd, 4th, #4th to 5th as a run, also the 9th)... The above are basically the primary notes to use for creating patterns in all styles of music except jazz." While she does not totally proscribe the use of the 3rd in the above statement, it would seem that she views it as only applicable in the context of a run or fill, much as you describe above. - in the accompanying examples there are indeed very few major 3rds. There are some specific examples of major 10ths, but it is my impression that she views these differently as being used as part of a more "melodic" type of statement than the major 3rd. I'll keep on looking for the major 3rd reference in her work - I am sure it is there, another poster in this thread has also come across it independently :-) Whatever the case, it is a rule I have found useful. I do use the major 3rds in walking lines, but in other music I found that they have a propensity to sound corny. That's just my experience, of course. Jennifer

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1072475' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:30 AM']Are you sure she didn't say use the "6th" instead of the "7th"?[/quote] I'm sure it was the third she mentioned. Two possibilities spring to mind though; 1) In my studies of general orchestration I have come across another rule that mentions substituting the major 6th for the major 7th when harmonising. This is particularly applicable when the melody note is the tonic, i.e. it would give a semitone clash with the major 7th. I have sucessfully applied this rule to basslines & cello parts as well. 2) I think she has also mentioned that the major 6th can be used with a dominant chord, even if the minor 7th is present elsewhere. Jennifer

Small world! Jennifer

[quote name='Sean' post='1072394' date='Dec 30 2010, 01:32 AM']I've carried this nugget of Carol's around for a few years now and it's made me feel guilty about using the Major third but I'm starting to use it more and have decided it's not as "hokey" [is that the word she used?] as she makes out. I would modify CK's advice and say, be careful when using a major 3rd over a major chord, it might sound cheesy depending on how it sits, a maj 6th is usually better.[/quote] You are of course correct, it is a generalisation that is not always the case. For such a simple statement, however, the number of times I have found it to be true has surprised me. Jennifer

When playing over a major chord, don't use the major 3rd in the bassline - substitute the major 6th instead. Unless you are playing reggae, in which case the major 3rd is ok. From Carol Kaye - and I've found it to be true almost 100% of the time. Jennifer

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1071735' date='Dec 29 2010, 01:55 PM']Just get a P or a J fretless. Makes life a lot easier.[/quote] I'm inclined to agree - unless you have previous double bass experience, there is a lot of learning in these instruments. Since you used scare quotes around "acoustic" I assume the ensemble you are playing with are treating the term with a certain degree of, ah, shall we say, flexibility? In which case a P or J bass will be sonically just as appropriate as any acoustic bass guitar or what have you. Of course, when it comes to acoustic performances, sometimes people go for the visual aspect more than the aural, in which case these instruments may be more appropriate. Jennifer

[quote name='Doddy' post='1068456' date='Dec 24 2010, 02:02 AM']This annoys me a lot. .... You never get this with keys or horn players.[/quote] There is a detuned violin in Mahler's fourth symphony. Happy Christmas all! :-) Jennifer

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1068596' date='Dec 24 2010, 10:44 AM']Like Sinatra, I acknowledge the artistry but don't really like the product.[/quote] I can relate to this in general, although I do like Sinatra :-) The attention to detail in all aspects of these old recordings is often stunning, certainly when compared to contemporary popular music. And it is a valid comparison - these guys played the popular music of their day. It just goes to show that things don't necessary become more sophisticated with the passing of time. Partly because of this, I find that I can sometimes enjoy playing music I wouldn't necessarilly choose to listen to. Not sure you would agree with this though Bilbo! Jennifer

[quote name='bassace' post='1068598' date='Dec 24 2010, 10:45 AM']If you haven't heart TAMB you should, even if you're not a jazz fan. The tenor solos are some of the most robust you'll ever hear, even in rock![/quote] It is indeed an incredible album, every aspect of it is at its peak. So good that I gave a loan of it to somebody, and they never gave it back. If only I could remember who that somebody was... Jennifer

[quote name='JTUK' post='1068587' date='Dec 24 2010, 10:33 AM']Nope.. and I doubt it would be much better in context either..[/quote] Indeed. In a nutshell, you will not be heard. Jennifer

[quote name='charic' post='1068582' date='Dec 24 2010, 10:31 AM']See I'll be tuning CGCF which with 5'er tuning is actually +1,+3,+3,+3 in semitones. So maybe I should just use a low B string tuned up a semitone then standard strings tuned down a tone... Confusing![/quote] The B will be a little tight and the standard strings pretty flappy if you do this. My approach to these problems would be a relatively light B string, a .125 for example, and some relatively heavy strings for the rest. Rotosound do a set, for example, with A=.85, D=.70, G=.50 Jennifer

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1068531' date='Dec 24 2010, 09:46 AM']I keep an old 4-string bass (a beat-up 70's Ned Callan) strung BEAD and I've had no problems with the trussrod. As I understand it, this is because the heavier gauge is more-or-less offset by the lower tension due to the tuning.[/quote] That is correct. The point of using different gauge strings is to achieve even tension across all the strings. Therefore BEAD should not be significantly different in terms of overall tension than EADG. It would seem to me that an additional truss rod or other reinforcements to the neck are only a requirement when you add extra strings, which will increase the tension significantly. Edit: or not, as Rich has found out! Thinking about it, quite a lot of tolerance should be available in these necks, for people who use extra thick sets of strings, which could well be the equivalent in tension to an extra string. Jennifer

Sorry Big Al, looks like I just parroted your post :-) Jennifer

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1068256' date='Dec 23 2010, 09:30 PM']My problem is do I learn them in the key they're played on the records or do I learn them a semi tone lower. One of my (many ) weaknesses is that I can learn songs quickly but once they're learnt I find it hard to amend then in my mind .[/quote] I may be misunderstanding you, but from what has been posted, the answer may be to learn them in the original key with standard tuning, which will allow you to play along with the songs on CD. Then when you play the same songs with the band, play them in exactly the same positions, but with all your strings tuned down a semitone. Thus a G will become a Gb. If you would rather practice in the alternate tuning, programs like Transcribe will transpose songs down a semitone, or any other interval for that matter. Jennifer

Nice work indeed... although it does rather confirm my theory that jazz lyrics usually conform to one of three subject areas: 1) Dead jazz guys. 2) DJs who played jazz. 3) The superiority of vinyl over CDs :-) Jennifer [quote name='Faithless' post='1019048' date='Nov 10 2010, 05:24 PM']Tutor gave a cd to me "Itroducing Kristin Korb with Ray Brown Trio".. [/quote]

That really is the good stuff! Jennifer

[quote name='thinman' post='1068139' date='Dec 23 2010, 07:32 PM']I was asking my local luthier about this and he prefers springs to foam (the screws go though the middle). His view is that foam is a cheap option and loses it's "umph" after a while leading to the pickups rattling a bit.[/quote] If you only use foam this will happen. I tend to pad the space out with a bit of wood or similar until it is almost at the height to hold the pickup, then use the foam for the last bit to allow some adjustment. Good springs are good, but I often find them too wobbly and easy to press down, especially if they are near their maximum extent. In this case you can pad them out with washers or nuts over the screws in the same way as described above. Jennifer

[quote name='tauzero' post='1066984' date='Dec 22 2010, 05:17 PM']Like Jennifer, I have a 6-string Grind. I had a play of assorted 5-string basses at PMT and found the Grind 5 was the most playable. I would like it active for preference so I might put an Artec preamp into it at some point.[/quote] I have some EMG 40CS pickups fitted into my 6-string Grind - the upgrade was definitely worthwhile. Jennifer