Pete Academy

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698200' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:12 PM']Ever since I started playing, which was about 14, I just played along to records constantly (LPs in those days). A few years into my playing I decided to have a couple of lessons, so that I could learn theory and some jazz. The first lesson was a disaster. I was playing my '83 Steinberger in those days, and the teacher looked at it and started to criticise it, saying it wasn't a real instrument. Then he said there was no need to play anything beyond the fifth fret, as every note is there. So I thought, why not just play a bass with 5 frets? He then sent me home with the cycle of fifths, without ever explaining what they meant. I ended up badmouthing him in the shop I was working in, and someone he was teaching happened to be there and overheard this. A couple of days later I get a call from the teacher, telling me never to contact him again. So there we have it: my one and only stab at learning theory and jazz. By the way, he's named Tony Silver, and to this day we seriously hate each other.[/quote] Sorry to digress here, but a few years ago I was browsing a market in Newcastle-under-Lyme, when I came across a stall selling musical instruments. On there was an acoustic bass for a hundred quid. It looked pretty good except the neck was seriously bent. You could have driven a bus under the strings. I pointed this out to the lady at the stall, and then I suddenly heard a voice say: 'It's a bloody bass, they're supposed to be like that!' Ah, my old nemesis. Last I heard from the old buffoon.

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='698188' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:04 PM']Yes, but the patterns can also be called scales.[/quote] I know that, but that's just the way my brain retains the songs.

Ever since I started playing, which was about 14, I just played along to records constantly (LPs in those days). A few years into my playing I decided to have a couple of lessons, so that I could learn theory and some jazz. The first lesson was a disaster. I was playing my '83 Steinberger in those days, and the teacher looked at it and started to criticise it, saying it wasn't a real instrument. Then he said there was no need to play anything beyond the fifth fret, as every note is there. So I thought, why not just play a bass with 5 frets? He then sent me home with the cycle of fifths, without ever explaining what they meant. I ended up badmouthing him in the shop I was working in, and someone he was teaching happened to be there and overheard this. A couple of days later I get a call from the teacher, telling me never to contact him again. So there we have it: my one and only stab at learning theory and jazz. By the way, he's named Tony Silver, and to this day we seriously hate each other.

Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns. I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?

[quote name='Doddy' post='698127' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:15 PM']I wouldn't exactly put it like that. For me,everything that you study should be put to one side when you are performing,and eventually it will begin to become part of your vocabulary and will naturally come out in your playing. The trick is knowing it well enough to not have to think about it.[/quote] And you're from Leek.

[quote name='TimR' post='698169' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:49 PM']I would hazard a guess you know more theory than you think you do. You know the names of the notes. I've played with people who only go by fret and string numbers. You probably even know where most/all of those notes are on the fretboard. You know that there is a difference between a major and minor, and I would guess you know what the difference is. I've played with guitarists who only play major chords and had to look up a minor one in their chord chart, let alone anything else. If you know what notes are in a Dm7 you're even further down the road.[/quote] Yep...spot on.

Be there or be pubic.

[quote name='Doddy' post='698122' date='Jan 1 2010, 05:09 PM']I've never considered that view point because it's bullshit. The way I always look at it is I have never once heard anyone complain that they [u]know[/u] how to do something. I've got pretty decent ears,and can busk well,but knowing what I'm doing makes it a hell of a lot easier to work out what's happening. You say that you think you are 'pretty good' as you are-that's great,but why would you choose to limit yourself by ignoring something that would improve your understanding of music? I hate just being told the roots. I want to know what the chord is-I don't want to play a b7 over a major 7 chord,it'll just sound bad,and knowing what is going on will eliminate any guess work and allow me to just play.[/quote] Yeah, but you are a 'proper' musician.

Nearly Dan will play their first gig of 2010 at The Robin, Bilston on Friday January 8. www.therobin.co.uk New set list including 'Aja', which has been out for a couple of years.

Whenever someone is giving me chords to play, I always say, 'Just give me the root notes.' When the song is playing, even if I haven't heard it before, I can usually guess what notes to play within the chord by listening.

[quote name='SteveK' post='697876' date='Jan 1 2010, 12:43 PM']You yourself have quoted 2 very good reasons for learning (at least a bit of) theory. I assume that the above quote implies, "If Jimi can do it, so can I". This is a common but dangerous attitude for a musician. Most non-theorists will reel off names of great musicians who don't/didn't know any theory to justify their stance. Don't assume that you are one of these geniuses...the chances are that you aren't.[/quote] Good post.

He's a top bloke.

Dunno really. I think it's about the material we cover. I use dto teach people but gave it up because I felt I should know more theory. The whole post is really about not knowing theory but making a good career out this, nevertheless. [quote name='Eight' post='697486' date='Dec 31 2009, 07:17 PM']If it were me, and I felt embarrassed by a lack of knowledge, then I'd try to fix it. Are you now trying to talk yourself out of that feeling so that next time it happens you don't care? It's more important to really understand your own feelings than what we all think. Why were you embarrassed?[/quote]

[quote name='urb' post='697436' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:34 PM']To be honest theory knowledge is only as good what you can apply on a gig/session etc in real time, "knowing more than you can show" is a bit of shame really as the whole point of learning and extending your knowledge is to be able to do this as a player... so if you can't back it up by writing down everything down and examining it under a microscope then perhaps you don't know the stuff as thoroughly as some, but can play like a well rounded bassist then well, job done... it all depends on where you want your playing to go, and what you want to do as a musician: learning how to be a bebop monster when you play funk and rock isn't necessarily a smart move, but then knowing more is better than knowing less IMO, and ultimately gives you many more options as a musician, and potentially more gigs! Just my thoughts on the subject, my theory is a lot better than it used to be but using my ear and playing with a good feel/groove are still as important on a gig, and thinking is the last thing I want to do when I'm in the midst of a kicking gig. M[/quote] Good post.

I'm not really stressing. I've gone 35 years without knowing a shred of theory. I'm just curious as to how many other bass players have survived without this knowledge. [quote name='steve-soar' post='697428' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:27 PM']Pete, you're in one of the best Dan tributes on the planet, don't stress too much, however, learning some theory is worth its weight in gold for that "when the penny drops moment" and it all starts to make sense. [/quote]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' post='697389' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:02 PM']You can be a great player without theory for sure. But if you are, learning a bit of theory will definitly make you even better. IMO anyway. Definitly "opened doors" for me[/quote] That was the main point of the post. I know I've missed out, especially on getting more work, but considering the music I really like - which is funk-based - has a grasp of the groove been more important?

[quote name='oldslapper' post='697388' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:01 PM']Pete you are a darn fine player having checked out your vids, and SD bass lines require good feel/timing/technique which you have a'plenty. I have known plenty of fantastic players who don't have a clue why what they do "works ,it just does. I was in the same camp up until about 3 years ago, when someone gave me simple some pointers on "intervals/diatonic charts/scale structure". And I have to say that even some basic theory knowledge opened up my playing, it was a bit like a door opening to a new world (sounds a bit poncy, but only way to describe it) and things started to make sense. I now know why what I do sounds the way it does and I'm able to articulate on a different level with other musicians, particularly in new situations. Certainly gave me confidence to go out and start playing again after a 15 year break. I'm 48, not a 19 year old just starting out, and wish now I had taken this stuff on board years ago. I think I'd have been a more confident musician. But look, if you don't feel you need to know theory, then don't worry about it...you're obviously doing ok without it. You're in a working band, and well respected as a player from what I see on this forum. Happy new year, John[/quote] Cheers mate! I was just wondering if other players feel a bit daunted by a lack of theory. I believe Jimi knew nothing, and the chords he played were made up by himself. It was then up to future transcribers to fathom out what he was actually doing, especially for printed music.

I always think that, judging by the material I play, people expect me to be a jazz/theory monster, but I always maintain that anyone can learn songs by rote, but it's the groove and feel that count. I know Jake has played the Dan's material with Bryan on drums (H Gang), and he's a theory master. What do you think, Jake?

We are currently learning some new(ish) songs for a revamped 2010 set. One of the songs requires us to transpose a song into the key of D to suit one of the female singers. The first chord is Dm7. I rang our keyboard player and asked him why we needed to transpose, when the key is already D. He said the first chord doesn't matter, as the song is in C, so I need to go up a tone. Cue embarrassment. I've realised that I'm absolutely clueless about theory, and always have been. I can groove well and have a good ear. In the 80s and 90s I composed and recorded a great deal of my own (mainly) jazz/funk/soul music. I programmed drum machines and played fairly complex chords on my Casio Midi guitar, but hadn't got a clue what I was doing theoretically. The chords just sounded 'right'. I just know if it sounds and feels OK, that's all. I can't solo over jazz chord changes, but what the hell? I'm the bass player. Does anyone else share this attitude?

The great Byron Miller on bass, with a tone to die for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK5Bhb6KGq8 They don't come more classic than this.

This is a great track and a perfect reminder of why Zender should be praised. That's the envelope filter sound I can never get.

If you like Steely Dan, we are playing at The Metropolis on Thursday January 28.

This is REALLY how to groove!

D'oh...here's the link! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euarn9XFUf8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euarn9XFUf8[/url] It's a live video, but with the studio track.