noelk27

Think I shot myself in the foot - asking if cash money was acceptable, but not making an offer before disappearing for a long weekend. Getting one with all that candy would have been cool.

Any thoughts about a cash price as opposed to trades?

Good question. From the artwork looks in average condition for a 78 - and assuming the date stamps etc validate that point, and taking into account solid colour and the few non-original parts you mention, I'd say between £1,000 and £1,100. You'll routinely see them on eBay for anything around £1,400 and £1,500, but that really is optimistic - maybe for a factory-fresh example you could expect that.

First, the legislation governing this area is not limited to lotteries and raffles, but extends to bingo, whist drives, bridge nights, and other games of chance. [quote name='originalfunster' post='379461' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:35 PM']Why cant you have a Prize Draw? you get your 100 people to pay a tenner, set a question on the forum, those 100 people give thier answer, put all names and correct answers into the hat, and pick one at random. and the prize for the correct answer is........ your warwick? thats not a Lottery or a Raffle[/quote] The first prosecution concerning a "seller" who attempted to use a scheme based on the lottery/raffle model resulted in the "seller" being found guilt, the scheme being construed as infringing the relevant legislation. To my knowledge no "seller" using the lottery/raffle model with a "skill based question" to facilitate entry has, to date, resulted in a prosecution being raised. However, a number of such schemes have been closed down on the advice of the Gambling Commission to the instigators of such schemes. Without knowing the content of the Commission's advice, it would appear that it has expressed its opinion that such schemes do not meet the requirements of the legislation and its intention to pursue prosecutions, should its contention be upheld by the courts. [quote name='deaver' post='379478' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:45 PM']My own warped take on this: A well known BassChat photographer takes a photo of my bass (or similar) adorning a girl with her top off. A numbered set of prints are made up, let's say 100. I sell the prints at £10 a pop. I give the said bass to someone possessing a lucky number. Not sure I've smoothed the rough edges on this one but I enjoyed thinking about it.[/quote] An interesting suggestion. If you were my client I might be suggesting that the limited edition print resembles a voucher or ticket and the selection of a number resembles a game of chance, if the terms and conditions of the purported “sale” of the photographs were not meticulously researched and written. [quote name='hivez' post='379551' date='Jan 13 2009, 07:46 PM'][url="http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/detail.asp?Contentid=175"]http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Clien...p?Contentid=175[/url] Looks to me we could run it as Private Society Lottery according to the Gambling Commission. Or have I read it wrong. Dave[/quote] First, in general terms, terms such as society are given specific mean for the purposes of statutory interpretation. I would sincerely doubt that an internet forum would not clear that hurdle, without a charter and express stated purposes of association, etc. Unfortunately, as this forum was established for the purposes of sharing information and experience and furthering knowledge of bass playing, and the sales thread is simply an incidental aspect of the forum’s operation, then a lottery/raffle for the sale of an item would not be construed as being within the primary purpose of the forum. [quote name='wesfinn' post='379582' date='Jan 13 2009, 08:07 PM']surely if its all illegal, then everybody could 'club together' to buy the bass so that it would technically be owned by all the people who paid. that would then jsut be a straight sale right? then its up to those people to decide if they want to 'give' the bass to one person and theyre way of doing so is to draw the names out of a hat to make it fair, that way there is no financial profit gained, it's just a bunch of nice people who decided that they would give away theyre share in something.[/quote] If identifying the “purchaser” who would take possession of the item being sold was decided by chance then such a scheme could, potentially, be construed as infringing the relevant legislation. If the criteria to decide who would take possession was decided on a basis other than chance then it might be workable. However, based on the Gambling Commission’s current stance, any skill-based criterion would have to be truly skill based. (For example, a "competition" based on participants’ knowledge of bass playing arranged along the lines of the Champions League, perhaps.)

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='379386' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:37 PM']That would make sense as there are raffles held in Church halls up and down the country... they can't be illegal! Or is it the value and destination of proceeds that dictates if it can go ahead?[/quote] In general terms, church or social club lotteries/raffles are allowable where all moneys raised are given over for charitable purposes - after deduction of statutorily sanctioned classes of expenses. The reason that the proposed scheme does not meet - and could never meet - the statutory requirements is that the moneys would be construed as being raised for "private gain". Private gain has a much wider definition than that of profit, and irrespective of where and when the lottery/raffle where to be held and drawn, as long as the main purpose is not charitable it would be construed as illegal gaming.

[quote name='Galilee' post='378985' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:33 PM']You're going to need a license, otherwise this is completely illegal. [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6968569.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6968569.stm[/url] for one example...[/quote] Just the enterprising seller I was thinking of, when I remarked to simon1964 about doing a LexisNexis/Westlaw search. I was certain that the individual fell foul of a number of legal issues - and as can be seen from even this basic report, issues in relation to licensing, gaming, proceeds of crime, etc, were broached by the prosecution. Again, as can also be seen what the seller decided to call the scheme made no difference as to how the courts viewed the scheme. Similarly, the main issue for the scheme currently being discussed is that of "private gain", and not licensing. It certainly is possible to organise a small lottery/raffle (prize fund limited to £250) or a private lottery/raffle (total sum raised not exceeding £250,000, and prize fund under £20,000), if the moneys raised are for "charitable purposes". However, where the moneys raised are not wholly for such purposes then the venture becomes a commercial one and the registrations required, necessary statutory accounting, and reporting for taxation purposes, make this venture an entirely more complicated affair than I'm sure was envisaged. There are also specific arrangements that must be observed in relation to the format of tickets, statutory limits on the cash price of tickets, and strict procedures on the drawing of the lottery/raffle, etc, which, unfortunately, those procedures proposed in the thread thus far do not meet.

[quote name='Delberthot' post='378455' date='Jan 12 2009, 11:28 PM']How about we each give you £11 out of the goodness of our hearts - you donate £1 from that to charity and that £1 donation entitles us to a charity raffle entry?[/quote] To be classed as having a "charitable purpose", the entire residue of moneys raised must be given over to a registered charity or charitable purpose as statutorily defined. Allowable deductions are the value of the prize fund (statutorily set at £250 for small lotteries/raffles, etc - larger for private lotteries/raffles, etc) and administrative/running costs (such costs are subject to statutory accounting procedures).

[quote name='simon1964' post='378367' date='Jan 12 2009, 10:28 PM']Sorry - don't shoot the messenger - I personally think its a great idea and will be buying a ticket or several myself if we can get it OK'd![/quote] If you have access to the appropriate sources, it might be worth doing a LexisNexis/Westlaw search - I seem to recall an instance in England in recent years (the last ten or so) where some enterprising individual managed to “sell” heritable property by organising a species of “lottery” - although this may have been designed as a form of “auction”. Unfortunately I don’t have access to those resources these days. Similarly, I don’t think it’s a bad idea, just simply highlighting a few of the issues pertinent to the area of gaming and lotteries regulation. Beyond licences, there will be issues of proper accounting (the local authority has the right to request an accounting) and income and taxation issues.

[quote name='BassManKev' post='378333' date='Jan 12 2009, 10:04 PM']yeah but the person organising the raffle here isnt getting any gain out of it, he is getting £1000 for a bass worth £1000, no profit whatsoever[/quote] The statutory definition of private gain is wider than the definition of profit.

[quote name='MythSte' post='378281' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:27 PM']I'm not sure this even has to be called a raffle... We're just pledging money to this man and hes offering a draw for a bass at the end of it...[/quote] Well, in a certain sense it doesn't matter what you decided to call it, but how it would be construed at law - in line with a definition contained in the relevant legislation. The legislation also deals with bingo, whist drives, bridge evenings, among other situations. For good or for bad, the State has decided that it is in the interests of the general public to regulate betting and gaming (gaming including lotteries, raffles, bingo, etc), for the protection of the general public and the financial regulation of the sector. [quote name='BassManKev' post='378295' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:37 PM']Why is it different doing it for charity, which we'v already done?[/quote] As you specifically state, for charity. Where all funds raised are given as a donation to a registered charity this is not for the private gain of the person (or persons) organising the lottery, raffle, bingo, etc.

Unfortunately I think you’re going to run into a number of legal issues here. First, to be classed as a small lottery/raffle the prize fund (purchased or donated) cannot exceed £250; and second, all tickets must be sold on the night at an event or single location. Territorially/geographically I would doubt the standing of an internet forum to meet the definition of location. Private lotteries/raffles, with a more sizeable value/prize fund, must either be sanction by the Gamming Board or the relevant local authority (further there may be a requirement to notify the Police). With respect to these lotteries/raffles tickets may be sold in advance, but the value of the ticket is limited – and the current valuation exceeds the statutory defined maximum face value of a ticket. (There are further requirements with respect to the issue and format of the tickets, which would raise further matters.) Theses issues, and a number of others aside, the primary issue you will face is that a lottery/raffle cannot be run for private gain. Again, I would have my reservations that a raffle organised along these lines would not be construed as being for private gain.