leftybassman392

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='729741' date='Jan 30 2010, 03:07 PM']I didn't say it was linear amplification. But the string produces the harmonics - if it didn't then moving up and down the fret board wouldn't do much! I'm not arguing that pickups don't contribute to tone, they clearly do. But If you imagine a hypothetical 'flat' pickup, then could you not get a fairly reasonable rough approximation of a particular pickup's tone with EQ alone? What I was trying to say was that the way the string output across the different harmonics decays over time will be dominated by its interaction with the body/neck/bridge etc. Point taken regarding being in a magnetic field. But I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that this doesn't have nearly as significant affect on the note decay as the mechanical factors in the body unless the pickup is too close to the string (when you get that 'sucking' effect. Also this factor would be a constant whether the bass is played plugged in or otherwise.[/quote] It's clearly a very complex relationship between the various factors, all of which appear to be contributing to the final result. The question I asked in the OP was geared towards trying to get a definitive answer to the question of the contribution made by the (usually very expensive) tonewood to the overall result. Clearly it has some, but then again so do the pickups, the neck, the electronics..... I think the answer to my question is that there isn't an easy answer! However, it has made me wonder whether the money I might otherwise have paid for an exotic piece of wood might not be more effectively spent somewhere else on the instrument. I have enjoyed the discussion thus far though - plenty to mull over when the time comes

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='729596' date='Jan 30 2010, 12:37 PM']Like I said before, pickups can only amplify what's there. The string dictates the initial harmonics of a note but their relative volume and how they decay is very much affected by how the thing it's anchored to resonates.[/quote] Don't think that's quite right. First of all, pickups don't just amplify what's there. In fact standard guitar pickups are inherently non-linear, and definitely add their own character to the mix. Secondly, the strings are vibrating in a magnetic field, which affects how they vibrate. The electromagnetics is a little above my pay grade - any electronics engineers out there? - but it definitely happens. [url="http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys199pom/Labs/Electric_Guitar_Pickup_Measurements.pdf"]Measuring pickup characteristics[/url] [url="http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys498pom/498emi_guitar_pickup_results.html"]Results of the above analysis[/url]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='728058' date='Jan 28 2010, 08:20 PM']hi, the electronics are identical, but the same tonal differences are apparent acoustically when I hold my ear up to the bass bodies, so I still don't believe it's the electonics - not in this case anyway. cheers G[/quote] I'm sure VGS can speak for himself, but I've got a feeling that's not really what he means. The various components used in preamp circuits are made within certain tolerences, which means that different examples of the same circuit can vary slightly in their 'sound'. This makes it hard to call them identical to the point that you can eliminate them as a factor. Not saying you're wrong about the sound of your basses - just that it isn't quite as simple as it looks. And with great respect, I'm still not so sure about the 'acoustic tone translating to amplified sound' argument.

Don't luthiers tap wood to check for defects? A flawless piece of wood will have a strong resonance, whereas internal and/or invisible cracks will inhibit the resonance. Same principle as you use with porcelain. In fact isn't it the quality of the wood stock that you pay for (at least in part)?

Something else that might be worth saying - unless it's changed dramatically since the last time I looked at it a few months ago, the RGT system doesn't have 'pieces' like Rockschool does - it's a different system that puts more emphasis on being able to think like a musician, and as such it does take a bit of getting used to for someone brought up on the Rockschool format. Sarah, I'm RGT registered and used to host exams at my teaching studio. If you'd like a bit more detailed info about the RGT system, drop me a PM.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='719534' date='Jan 20 2010, 08:36 PM']Tonewood definitely matters. Though by how much will depend on how clean your signal chain and how flat the output from the pickups is. Certainly with my basses the acoustic tone of each instrument is reflected in the amplified sound. Of course it's possible to compensate for or exaggerate various aspects of this sound in the pickups/electronics. And pickup position makes a big difference but the bottom line is a pickup can only amplify what's there. One thing that is confusing the issue is the issue of uniformity or lack of it within a particular wood type. Different examples of the same species tree may have different resonant properties, Nonetheless each will have an 'average' sonic signature or characteristic tone even though individual basses may differ from this. I expect different wood species will exhibit differing variability as well - e.g. the vastly different densities of ash. I also suspect that multi-ply construction on the necks will make a big difference to tone, having come to the conclusion that a single piece, all-maple (which is quite resonant acoustically) is what I prefer. One final thing is, although I think tonewood matters I doubt there are any exotic species that could give you a sound you couldn't find within the spectrum of more typical varieties.[/quote] Well there's another problem right there - pickups aren't linear. In fact it's the nonlinearity of electromagnetic pickups that gives them their different characteristics - at least in part. There is no such thing as a 'flat' guitar pickup - at least not traditional types that work on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Without getting too far into another 'black art' topic, pickup designers make great play of the difference between their design and all the others - in fact it's probably not going too far to say that there's as many opinions about pickups as there are about wood. I don't doubt your sincerity when you talk about how your amplified tone is a reflection of the natural tone, but I still don't see a connection that can be measured in such a way that the different wood is the only possible reason. (And by the way, I don't buy into the 'differences so subtle they can't be measured' school of thought - if there's a real, audible difference between two sounds then it's measurable... end of story!) I've owned, played and tinkered with guitars and pickups all my adult life. Whilst I agree that each type of instrument has it's own distinctive type of sound, I'm still not sure how much of that sound is coming from the wood - even tonewood specialists agree that different examples of the same would type can differ dramatically from each other. (Fender, for example, are known to have used wood from a wide variety of sources for their instruments over the years, and yet an old Strat still sounds like an old Strat, and a Jazz still sounds like a Jazz.)

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='718732' date='Jan 20 2010, 09:15 AM']I THINK its in here but am not 100% sure. I will check tonight and let you know. If it is, it will be the guitar part but it will have the chords etc so may get you through. [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Mike-Stern/dp/0634068008/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263978760&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Mike-Stern/dp...8760&sr=1-1[/url] It is also on the Mike Stern DVD I am selling in the Marketplace here but no chart.[/quote] Thanks Bilbo. I found a partial source on t'internet and worked from that. I think I have the main theme pretty much sorted, and the groove sounds pretty straightforward. Could do with the intro though...

[quote name='Mike' post='718651' date='Jan 20 2010, 01:27 AM']This is a wonderful piece. I am on the verge of transcribing it myself.[/quote] I found a partial source and did it from that. Here's the main figure. I'm not completely sure about the triplet figure in bar 13, but apart from that it seems good. I've put a turnaround at the end if you want to repeat it. Apart from that the basic groove is pretty straightforward (if very fast!) in Am (or possibly Dorian - haven't finished that yet ) with what sounds like an E7#9 turnaround - let me know what you think. Also, I haven't looked at the intro yet - if you have then you may care to share...? Here's the main riff:- [attachment=40637:tipatina__s_riff.pdf] Later edit - the turnaround is actually pretty redundant, but now that I've posted it...

There's another element in the equation that nobody's picked up on (including me ) ....... the listener. I don't just mean everybody's got a different opinion about this (although they do - or at least they should if they care about their 'sound'). There's a curious little thing about the way our hearing works - as sounds get quieter our hearing gets progressively less sensitive at either end of the audio spectrum. It's called a loudness contour, and it means that an audio signal played at high volume will sound different to the same audio signal played at a lower volume. For a bass player, that means that your bass will not just sound louder when you turn up - it will also sound fuller, deeper and richer. The upshot of this is that - as if it weren't hard enough already - anyone trying to show how woods (or anything else for that matter) affect tone needs to offer evidence that their tests were carried out at equal volume as well - not equal amp settings, but equal SPL readings.

Anybody out there got a transcription of the bass line for this song? I've been asked to learn it for a Jazz Fusion project and don't have the time to transcribe it myself. I'd be hugely grateful to anyone who has a version - actually a chord chart would do as I could work out the rest from there. Failing that I'd be happy if I could get my hands on a published copy - is it in any of the Real Books? TIA

[quote name='henry norton' post='714923' date='Jan 16 2010, 03:40 PM']Actually not as much as you'd first think because construction has a much bigger impact on acoustic instruments than it does on electrics - The bracing, carving etc. has a profound effect on the tone whereas the woods have proportionally much less. It all makes a difference but the devil's in the detail when it comes to tonewoods.[/quote] I agree with this. Internal bracing design is generally accepted as one of the most critical elements in the construction of a top end acoustic.

+1 to most of the above - notes are notes.

[quote name='robocorpse' post='711868' date='Jan 13 2010, 08:17 PM']Its a G+L ASAT.[/quote] Yup.

[quote name='stevie' post='711848' date='Jan 13 2010, 08:01 PM']It would be really interesting if you could remember.....[/quote] I've had a look around myself, and the closest I could find was [url="http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/ToneWoods/tonewoods1.html"]this[/url].

I loved my Wal, but the preamp design makes it extremely difficult to identify the actual 'sound' of the instrument IMHO. Actually, I would suggest that most active circuits would do essentially the same. I've just taken delivery of a new boutique Telebass by Regenerate Guitar Works in the USA. The only reason I mention it here is because it's a remake of one of the earlier versions, with a single pickup and passive controls. I would suggest that this type of configuration is about as close as you can get to the 'natural' sound of the instrument with any kind of amplification (which kind of comes back to the point made earlier about playing the instrument unamplified - but then doesn't that largely defeat the point of having an electric bass in the first place?)

[quote name='chris_b' post='710811' date='Jan 13 2010, 12:50 AM']How about playing the bass with your fretting hand [i]over[/i] the neck?[/quote] Jeff Healey - but then again he had a pretty good excuse.

[quote name='henry norton' post='711226' date='Jan 13 2010, 01:04 PM']Just to be doubly contentious, I might add the 'back to back' tests OTPJ and chris_b did on their respective Status' and Wal's may not be as conclusive as they first appear because I would presume high end instruments like these are always subject to constant development in the design, construction and electronics which may well count more for the differences in sound than the differences between two pieces of wood. (OTPJ's very different sounding Status basses were both walnut so what does that tell you about nailing down your sound by wood choice!) Anyway, you can all print off a copy of my avatar and throw darts at it now. I'm off to laminate up some mahogany and quarter sawn Canadian rock maple for my next bass neck [/quote] Actually I was kind of thinking the same thing myself but didn't really feel qualified to criticise since I've only ever had one Wal and no Statuses (or should that be Stati?) On a related point, the tone shaping on a Wal is incredibly powerful, which I would have thought would make a direct comparison hard to make anyway - I mean how can you be sure the settings are completely identical, strings identical, action identical, etc. to the point that the only possible difference is due to the wood choice? To be clear, I'm not trying to question anyone's judgement; but given the complexity of the interaction between the various, er, variables I'm still not sure how anyone can be certain that any one of them (in this case the choice of wood) can dominate the equation to the extent that some clearly feel it does. Not that I'm complaining of course, since I own several high-end instruments that use exotic woods. I love them all, and they're as good to look at as they are to play. But they're all either off-the-shelf models or else made originally to suit someone else's needs. At the risk of sounding anal and/or cheapskate (which I'm not BTW), I'd just like to know what a £200 exotic tonewood facing is actually going to do for my sound BEFORE I spend the money. But then again maybe the visual beauty of a top quality instrument is meant to be part of the feelgood that comes from owning and using it.

[quote name='henry norton' post='709728' date='Jan 12 2010, 09:24 AM']+1 on all that but I would add, if you're having a bass designed and made by a good luthier I would choose the woods I liked the look and feel of rather than trying to 'tune' the sound by wood choice. 'Tune' the sound by pickup, string and electronics choices as they are far more consistent than wood will ever be. Some luthiers go to extraordinary lengths to pack in loads of different woods in order to get a certain sound yet others (Mike Pedulla on his classic basses for instance), will just use one type of the best wood in the best way they can. There's no right answer but a well made bass should sound good in maple, ash, bubinga, walnut, ebony, whatever.[/quote] This is pretty much the point made by the luthier I spoke to. Normally I wouldn't have bothered, but it came as a surprise to me to hear it after many years of hearing the 'wood is everything' approach so eloquently expounded above by Bubinga5.

I think this is the right forum for this one... I've always thought that the wood(s) used to make a bass (or guitar for that matter) are a critical element in determining how it will sound, and that time spent selecting the woods for a high-end instrument build is time well spent as it provides a 'uniqueness' to the sound. However I recently had a fascinating conversation with a respected specialist builder on another forum, to the effect that whilst high quality woods are an important element in producing a high quality instrument, the actual choice of wood is less of a factor in determining the specifics of the sound than I had supposed, and that other factors such as pickup/preamp choice, string choice and setup are at least as important (if not more so). The implications of this are fairly substantial IMHO, because if true it means that in selecting tonewoods a customer is exerting less influence on how the instrument will sound (and probably more on how it looks) than he/she might believe. I'm aware that I may be stirring a bit of a hornet's nest in asking this, but I'm considering having a bass built for me (although the same basic considerations would surely apply to off-the-shelf instruments) and I really would like to know what people think.

Aha! You got them to pin it for you. Excellent stuff and no more than it deserves.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the gigging musician. This won't be the worst thing that happens to you - not by a long way. You just need to learn to deal with it. For example, at the time of writing I have a £1000+ handmade bass lying around in some airport hanger somewhere; now look at my avatar and ask yourself 'does this look like a worried man?'

Make that four. I've been waiting for my new Regenerate Heritage from the US since before New Year. It's in the country... somewhere...