leftybassman392

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='585362' date='Aug 30 2009, 08:36 PM']I think I read on one of the sites that the Sihtar originally had three strings but a fourth was added in modern times. Couldn't find it when I checked again. I could be talking rubbish here but ... according to Liddell & Scott ... and if I'm understanding correctly ... the Greek verb [i]kitharizein[/i] was used to mean 'playing music' on any of several instruments including the phormigx and the lyra as well as the kithara. I'm not clear though what the relationship between these instruments was, e.g. how they differ.[/quote] In the Persian, the 'tar' apparently refers to a string or strings, so it may be a reference to vibrating strings in general, (which would tend to support your point).

[quote name='Fraktal' post='583440' date='Aug 28 2009, 12:21 PM']I dont want to start a flame war here, but I think that wasnt an opinion, more like a common sense fact. Lets go back to 1960, when the Jazz Bass was released. Now think about the clothing people used to wear back in those days. Think about 1960 furniture, cars, electrodomestics or anything else. Would you say those designs arent outdated? Would you prefer to use "old-fashioned" as the word here? The designs of that age (late 50's-early 60's) are outdated from a technical/design/engineering point of view. On the aesthetics side, they are old-fashioned. Some of us may like old stuff, but that doesnt transform it magically into contemporary/new/modern stuff. An opinion would be more like "the Jazz Bass looks crap" and I never said that. Again, please try to understand that is not my aim to bash Fender, neither trying to impose my personal opinion above anyone's else. Im just saying its a late 50's design.[/quote] In terms of the number of people that have done it, the Jazz has to be the most cloned instrument in the history of the bass guitar - in fact there are companies out there who've built their reputation making Jazz clones - Sadowsky for example. You don't think there might be a good reason for that? Can't all be old farts buying them...

[quote name='Zoe_BillySheehan' post='584545' date='Aug 29 2009, 03:26 PM']I've borrowed a 5 string from my dads guitarist. and I've been playing through some stuff like 'Rage against the machine' and 'Stone sour' i'd like some more suggestions.. I know you can just use the 5th B in other songs... but i'd like some songs that are usually played on a 5 string, or a 4 string tuned to BEAD. Z x[/quote] You a fan of Evanescence? 'Bring me to Life' is fun. And it uses all 5 strings. (Great to see you back btw) Andy

First installment Introductory remarks and basic ideas 1. Background The Ancient Greek civilisation is an endless source of fascination for me. Modern Western civilisation owes more to the Greeks than to any other single source; Science, Mathematics, Art, Philosophy, Politics, Social structures – and, of course, Music. I don't think it's too much to say that they provided the blueprint from which modern western civilisation has developed. Many aspects of Greek culture are well covered in the literature, but music – surprisingly – isn't one of them. When I studied the topic in the early 1980's there was very little by way of modern commentary on this important aspect of Greek life in the period. I remember having to wade through massive dusty tomes for small snippets of information, most of which had a Mathematical bias; there wasn't much that I found that dealt with music from a musician's perspective. In the 20-odd years that have passed since then, more work has been done on the subject, so that music has become more widely accepted as having a key role in everyday life for the Ancient Greeks. 2. Sources and preparatory reading A lot of people will no doubt be happy to follow this main text, and that's just fine as it saves me some work! However one or two of you have already indicated to me that you may want to investigate some of the material a bit more thoroughly for yourselves. As a general point, Wikipedia covers the Ancient Greeks in some detail, and is actually not bad at all for getting some background to a lot of what is said. Although quality is sometimes a bit patchy by academic standards, it will be plenty good enough for most people. (If you do a Wiki search on 'Ancient Greece' for example, you should find plenty to keep you busy.) There's also quite a lot of Wiki articles that cover musical scales, intonation and other related subjects – again though, be careful because quality does vary, and a lot of it isn't written in a particularly reader-friendly way. When we get into the nitty gritty of the Greek approach to developing and using scales, it will definitely help if you have a comfortable working knowledge of intervals and scale structures – shouldn't be too much of a problem for members of this forum I would hope! (A knowledge of how to express musical intervals in cents wouldn't do any harm either, but I'll go through it when we get there). For those of you prepared to do more digging, there are works of a more academic nature that will allow you to form your own opinion of the topics being discussed – be warned though that most of them are either academic studies by scholars mostly talking to other scholars and/or very advanced students; or else translations of works from original texts (either Ancient Greek or Latin in their original form). This really is doing it hard way, and is definitely not for the casual reader! I'll try to point things out as we go. 3. Language issues Modern European languages are laced with words that have their origins in Ancient Greek culture. Words like Scale, Chromatic, Harmony, Chord and Diatonic are all direct descendents of Greek originals. However there is a problem here. Almost without exception, the Greek originals had substantially different meanings from their modern counterparts. Whenever these words come up in discussion (and they will!), you need to be very careful to resist putting a modern interpretation on them. Perhaps an example will help to make the point: Let's take the phrase 'Ionian Mode'. The standard modern take on this is 'a fancy name for the Major Scale'; forms the basis of a series of 7 interdependent patterns – once you have defined one of them you have in effect defined all of them. However in Ancient Greece it would have meant something quite different. Ancient Greece was populated by a number of distinct tribes or regional groups. The music from a region was a reflection of the tribe's collective 'personality'. The scale devised to make this music was named after the tribe from whom it originated. The Ionian Mode or Ionian Scale was a scale devised by the Ionians. This scale would have been distinct from the scales from other regions, and not musically related to any of them beyond the most basic elements of its structure. More to the point, the Ionian scale of the Ancient world would have borne little resemblance to the modern Major scale – indeed the whole methodology of scale construction was different. More on this in a later article, of course. In the next article I propose to start looking at the basic mechanics of scale construction. Don't forget to do your homework...

Fascinating stuff. Definitely adds some historical perspective. Tar looks particularly interesting. Do you happen to know whether these are modern recreations of ancient instruments or modernised versions? My feeling would be the latter (unlikely to be both as that would mean the instrument has not changed significantly in over 4000 years which seems very unlikely, and some of the sites you've located appear to view them as contemporary), but I'd be happy to be wrong. If there's a downside to this result it's that we're still not really close to knowing why the Greeks used a variation of this name to identify what is clearly a different instrument [url="http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kith/hd_kith.htm/The"]Check this link[/url] - actually I don't entirely agree with this description, in particular as to the number of strings, but it give you a good idea what it would have looked like. Ah well, the search goes on...

Nice one! Looks like I need a new search engine Still it was only a quick search...

[quote name='leftybassman392' post='583362' date='Aug 28 2009, 11:11 AM']It's a pretty good start though! It gives an interesting insight into the historical and geographical spread of stringed instruments. They notion of plucking strings to make music clearly goes back much further into Indo-European history than I knew of. It just seemed a bit odd that the Kithara (which by this reasoning sits within the chain, but is clearly a different type of instrument from all the others) should occupy the place it does, whilst the instrument that would appear to be a more likely candidate has a completely different name. Actually it would be a good idea to see if I can find out what a Sihtar looked like. Time to do a bit more digging methinks.[/quote] Haven't been able to find a direct reference to this instrument, but there is an article in Wikipedia (admittedly vague and a bit short on supporting evidence) that refers to guitars and lutes separately in ancient Persian music going back to around 2,500 BC. Hmmm...

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='583058' date='Aug 27 2009, 11:15 PM']Not much of an answer to the question asked though.[/quote] It's a pretty good start though! It gives an interesting insight into the historical and geographical spread of stringed instruments. They notion of plucking strings to make music clearly goes back much further into Indo-European history than I knew of. It just seemed a bit odd that the Kithara (which by this reasoning sits within the chain, but is clearly a different type of instrument from all the others) should occupy the place it does, whilst the instrument that would appear to be a more likely candidate has a completely different name. Actually it would be a good idea to see if I can find out what a Sihtar looked like. Time to do a bit more digging methinks.

Quick update folks. I've been in conversation with one of the Mods, who has kindly consented to putting the series up as a sticky thread (I have been surprised at the number of requests I've had for this topic, and it was becoming clear that using PM's was going to be impractical). Will be getting things going on Saturday. Andy

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='582856' date='Aug 27 2009, 08:11 PM']I'd also be interested- thanks for taking the time Leftybassman![/quote] Yup no problem

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='582280' date='Aug 27 2009, 11:14 AM']But such a strange name for a company. Like buying a car from 'Breakdown Motors'.[/quote] Guy that runs the business calls himself Buster Stringfellow - I think it may be a made up name...

[quote name='SteveO' post='582700' date='Aug 27 2009, 05:51 PM']I'd also be very interested in this mr lefty sir. Can you add me to your list please. [/quote] Certainly my son. Done.

A little something to get the collective little grey cells working: India has the Sitar originating from the thirteenth century (technically a member of the lute family); Persia has the Setar, dating from about the birth of Islam (i.e. around 7th/8th century and also a type of lute) Ancient Greece had the Cithara (Latin spelling) or Kithara (no 'c' in the Greek alphabet) - a type of lyre; Italy has a traditional folk instrument called a Chitarra that dates back several hundred years at least - somewhat similar to a modern classical guitar; We have the guitar. What, if any, is the connection? Not a trick question or one I know the answer to, but the etymology is striking. Problem is - all these instruments are lute based or lute derived, except the Kithara... the Greeks had a lute - but it had a completely different name (Pandoura)

[quote name='lowdown' post='582547' date='Aug 27 2009, 03:39 PM']This sounds interesting Lefty. Can you put me on the list. Garry[/quote] Done.

[quote name='The Funk' post='582436' date='Aug 27 2009, 01:49 PM']Thanks for the explanation, Lefty! Does your knowledge reach further back than the Church's interventions? This whole topic sounds fascinating![/quote] You want me to put you on the mailing list?

[quote name='The Funk' post='582436' date='Aug 27 2009, 01:49 PM']Thanks for the explanation, Lefty! Does your knowledge reach further back than the Church's interventions? This whole topic sounds fascinating![/quote] Actually the Ancient Greeks is more my area than the medieval period - as I see it the early Church hijacked most of their notions from the likes of Plato and (especially) Aristotle anyway. Greeks are a much more interesting culture all round IMHO.

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='582087' date='Aug 27 2009, 02:14 AM']Andy, I'd much appreciate being in on that if possible. PM sent.[/quote] And replied.

[quote name='The Funk' post='582100' date='Aug 27 2009, 06:00 AM']I remember one lesson when I studied Ancient Greek in which a discussion began about an odd translation along the lines of "the exotic-sounding Ionian scale". Our extremely knowledgeable teacher assured us that while the names of the modes are derived from Ancient Greece, the actual scales to which they refer are not necessarily the same.[/quote] Most people know them as the Ecclesiastical Modes because (to cut a very long and convoluted story to shreds) the medieval church took over an immensely complex and varied set of musical ideas from the Greeks (with some Roman input along the way), and whittled it down to something the masses could get along with (sound familiar?). The system of modes we have today is a development of that, with some other stuff like equal temperament thrown in. The original names are taken from early Greek tribes - The Ionians, Dorians, etc. Each of the tribes had their own notions of music, so that an Ionian scale in it's original Ancient form could well sound exotic, both to other tribes of the period and to us. One thing I can tell you is that it almost certainly didn't sound like a modern Major scale.

[quote name='deezbar' post='582040' date='Aug 26 2009, 11:35 PM']Hi Andy!! Wow..that looks an awesome bass mate.bet it sounds as good as it looks.D [/quote] Thanks Dave. It's a beauty. If you wanna come over and give it a run sometime, just drop me a PM.

[quote name='Grissle' post='581943' date='Aug 26 2009, 09:58 PM']That is a Beauty of a Beastie mate[/quote] Thanks. From where you live you may have heard of Regenerate already - guy lives in WA - near Seattle I believe. Short flight and prob less than a day's drive from you I would think (my geography's a bit suspect though...). He's a really nice guy and loves what he does. If you want more info you might want to check out his website (link in the OP). Andy

Hey guys. Just an update to let you know I haven't forgotten about doing this stuff. I think it will be easiest to use PM's to send it to you - that way other people won't have to wade through it, and we can hopefully avoid cheap shots of the 'well it's all Greek to me...' variety. Perhaps we could use the thread to discuss matters arising. Just a thought... Andy p.s. For the benefit of those who are reading this and feeling slightly baffled, a thread appeared a little while ago on the subject of modes. I have studied the ancient Greeks (who gave their name to the modes) and their music in some depth, and offered to give others a bit of an insight. Several people accepted the offer and now here we are. If you would like to have your name added to the mailing list then please PM me, but be warned that it's kind of technical. First mailing will cover some background issues - Instruments, musicians, language issues, etc. I'll try to send stuff around once every couple of weeks from there and we'll see how it goes.

Bass amp with a remote so I don't have to get off my a*se to adjust the volume (usually upwards) when I'm practising at home. Or has somebody done that already?

Me too. Always keen to learn something new.

Produced a teenage 3piece band doing a festival in Germany a few years ago - bass player plugged into a D.I. box...