leftybassman392

A bit of a spinoff from something I posted in the nearby 'Plato' thread a little while ago. Simple question: what makes a sound musical - or not? No hidden meanings or trick questions, no subterfuge. I haven't been surfing the net looking for anything of the 'how to waste peoples' time online' variety. If you had to write a dictionary definition of the word 'musical' specifically in relation to a single sound, what would you write? Tell you what, I'll even get you started: "A sound is musical if..."

I've been going over some of the works that I used in developing my articles, and I found this lovely extract that perfectly illustrates the difficulties of studying this stuff from a modern perspective: "[i]It was the unanimous verdict of all the musicians present that, while the music of the less civilised nations was often crude, barbarous and monotonous in the highest degree, the Greek hymn stood quite alone in it's absolute lack of meaning and it's unredeemed ugliness; and much surprise was expressed that a nation which had delighted all succeeding generations by it's achievements in the other arts should have failed so completely in this art which it prized and practised most. Yet all this criticism is an absurdity based on the fallacy that music is a universal language.[/i]" (Macran, from the introduction to his translation of Aristoxenus' Elements of Harmony, 1902) (Context: the author is relating his recollections of a lecture by a colleague on the subject of music from the distant past - with illustrative examples that included a fragment from an ancient Greek hymn - to an audience comprised, in part, of professional musicians.)

Thanks ET. Forgot to get round to it.

At the risk of repeating myself, the Ancient Greeks didn't do scales the way we do scales. Modern scale theory doesn't work, and any attempt to use it is misplaced. Plato lived around 25 centuries ago. Forget pretty much everything you thought you knew about scale structures. When the text talks about a 12-note musical scale the reference is almost certainly to the sequence of intervals created by a method called Pythagorean tuning (hint: Wikipedia is your friend here). The Pythagoreans attributed mystical significance to mathematical phenomena - they weren't remotely interested in music (at least not in the way we think of it). More importantly, the musicians of Plato's day wouldn't have used it in their music making (although to be fair it would have gained acceptance for this purpose as time passed). While I'm here, the phrase 'attributed to Pythagoras' in the text is a bit misleading as well. Although the Pythagoreans seem to have been the first to think in terms of tuning intervals in this way, the technique of sequential application of 3:2 ratios (which is how you create a Pythagorean tuning sequence) was well known long before they got their hands on it: technically, it's a practical application of a much older piece of Mathematical theory.

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1445080553' post='2888643'] "dissonant fifth". I guess we're talking about a very different scale then? [/quote] More commonly known as a Wolf Fifth. If you want to check it out, Wikipedia covers it pretty well. While you're there you may also want to check out the closely related topic of the Pythagorean Comma (which you can link directly to from the Wolf Fifth article).

Interesting indeed. If it's correct then it will require the academic community to extensively rethink what we thought we knew about Plato, and about the Pythagoreans, and the music of the period, and ... The research is still at a fairly early stage in it's development, and as stated at the end of the article it will take some time before the full picture will emerge (if indeed it does). I studied under Barker at the University of Warwick, and I recall that the music of the period is a particular interest of his. I certainly drew on some of his research in my series of articles published elsewhere on Basschat. One caveat I would urge people to consider though - we need to be extremely careful and cautious about putting modern ideas about musical form and structure onto the ancient Greeks. The simple fact is that they didn't think about it in anything like the same way as we do today. I won't bore people with the details here (if anybody's interested then they might like to look up my work in the 'Theory and Technique' section), but they just didn't. How this research might affect our understanding of music in Plato's Greece is still a very long way from being clear. For one thing, the Pythagoreans were Mathematicians: the scales they came up with were Mathematical constructs based on what we would identify as ratios. As a sect, their interest in music as a performance activity was minimal. Furthermore, I'm not aware that a 12-note scale of the kind that we might recognise even existed at the time (the Pythagoreans did have a method for generating a series of 12 musical intervals - which I suspect will turn out to be linked to this work - but whether it was ever actually used to generate a working scale that was actually used by actual working musicians is a long way from being clear). As I say, fascinating stuff, but let's not be hasty...

Just a headsup - I'm going to give this until Monday morning. If nobody claims it before then I'll be giving it to the BHF.

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444807868' post='2886129'] I don't want it set too low or it is difficult to reach my cutlery. [/quote] Please tell me that's not a euphemism.

[quote name='Highfox' timestamp='1444807302' post='2886117'] Now I have sideboard GAS! [/quote] I have a table and chairs as a give-away if it helps. Could be a really solid investment opportunity - it's definitely a solid table . Great condition for it's age (mid '90s); tone to die for... Eh? Eh?

Didn't I have a thread up here last night about a certain make of bass guitar? I'm sure I did, but this morning there's no sign of it - not even a 'watch yourself matey' PM... Honestly - some people have no sense of humour. [b][i][size=1]Disclaimer: the poster of this thread carries no ill will towards any make of bass guitar, or maker thereof. His previous thread was intended as a light-hearted skit drawing shamelessly from the 'Wal Schmal' thread in which the OP was openly and vociferously critical of Wal bass guitars - and at some length too! As such, it was not intended as criticism of any particular make of bass guitar, or maker thereof. While we're here, this thread is equally intended as a light-hearted skit which also draws shamelessly on the 'Wal Schmal' thread in which the OP was openly and vociferously, etc. etc., and is likewise not intended as a criticism of any make of, etc. etc.[/size][/i][/b]

What's wrong with it?

While we're here...

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444768126' post='2885893'] OK leftybassman392 - you are right. I changed the goalposts. You get first prize. First prize = a Wal bass. Second prize = two Wal basses! [/quote] Done! I'll PM you my address for posting. [spoiler] Whaddya know? Moaning a lot actually works. I might try it again sometime... [/spoiler]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444767350' post='2885878'] Ah - but which is which?!?! That's the hard part. [/quote] No fair! That wasn't part of the question. If it had been it would have said 'which is which?' and it didn't. I went back and checked it and it doesn't. You can't change the answer after somebody's got it right! What kind of a quiz is that!!! Honestly... some people just shouldn't be allowed to run quizzes!

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444765853' post='2885849'] Spot the difference.... [/quote] Ooooh! Ooooh! Ooooh! I know this one... One's a bass guitar and the other's a table! That's it isn't it? Isn't it? Is there a prize for getting this right? I do hope there's a prize... I like [s]presents[/s] prizes...

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Marmite!

Crockery cabinet now gone. Table + chairs still available.

In general the bespoke makers will always be good - they have to be to stay in business. I have a SEI Original that's around 10 years old (good as it is, recent examples I've seen are if anything even better); I'm on my second Shuker (they've both been great); I have a Rob Williams guitar that is just superb; I have a 20-year-old Patrick Eggle guitar (good design but execution wasn't up there with the best - current range is very upmarket and looks to be in a different league).

I understand why you did it, but I liked the original too. Ah well; each to his own...

Note to OP: if any of the above is making your head spin, don't worry about it - you're not about to drain the national grid - not even if you turn it up and play loud! In simple terms the number on the back indicates the possible power draw at maximum output. At the sort of levels your using them at I doubt either one would draw enough power to light an old-fashioned light bulb... maybe the Markbass - just.

[quote name='Shonks' timestamp='1444342462' post='2882511'] so where does that leave me regarding the original inquiry? [/quote] Your Markbass won't be using much electricity in your bedroom - even less if there's no sound coming out! Bit like a car engine - at idle it uses very little fuel; when you're moving it uses more. Simples!

Can't be a class C. Class C is not suitable for audio applications because it has horrendous distortion (and not in a good way!). Class A traditionally gets used for HiFi amps because it has very low distortion, but it has very high power consumption - in effect it uses all the available power all the time, whether it's producing an output signal or not. Instrument rigs normally use Class B or Class AB IIRC. If properly designed they give low distortion, and are much more efficient than class A - in simple terms, no output signal means little or no power drain. (In practice there'd normally be a little, but minimal.) As I said though I'm very rusty on this stuff as I haven't practised it in 25 years or more.

My electronics is very dusty these days, but by my recollection a Class B amp only draws the power it needs at any given instant. Class A amps on the other hand...

Crockery cabinet now on hold pending confirmation.

6' x 3' solid pine farmhouse style dining table, traditional construction, shallow drawer each end. This item is [size=5]BIG AND HEAVY!![/size] Definitely a 2-man job (would suit a couple of flank forwards at a loose end...). Condition overall is very good in keeping with it's age (20 years) - one or two small dinks and marks, but nothing that won't buff out with furniture wax and a bit of elbow grease. Chairs (x4) made in a similar traditional style. Not overly heavy but very sturdily built. In excellent condition. Crockery cabinet. For crockery. Think Welsh Dresser but without the top unit. Approx. 3' wide with 2-door main area + 2 top drawers. Not as heavy as the above but made in a similar traditional farmhouse style. Approx. 15 years old. One or two minor marks from the last house move, but again nothing a bit of TLC won't put right. If anybody's serious about it then I can do some photos (but bear in mind that the table legs have been removed for storage/transit and everything's a bit piled up ready to go). For what I hope are blindingly obvious reasons I cannot post, courier or meet en-route with this stuff; strictly collect only. You will definitely need a van big enough to hold a piece of wood 6' x 3' and around a foot deep including the leg supports, plus four fairly substantial wooden chairs. If there's a car big enough to swallow this lot plus two burly blokes then I haven't encountered it yet. We live on the southern edge of Redditch (around 15 miles south of central Birmingham). We are in the process of taking delivery of replacement furniture so this is now using up much-needed space and must go sooner rather than later. If you're interested please let me know without delay as it will be going to BHF if it doesn't shift within about a week. I'd prefer it to go to a good basschatter home (established members only please - your join date [u][b]must[/b][/u] precede the date of this ad) but if it doesn't shift pretty sharpish then it'll be going the charity shop route. Thanks for looking.