Major-Minor

[quote name='rslaing' post='542253' date='Jul 16 2009, 02:15 PM']My point was that it was BECAUSE (and it is common with bass players and especially guitarists) FunkSHui has learned his scales and modes in what appears to be primarily based on the shape method, that he has the difficulties he mentioned. Namely, not having the recall beyond the visual aspect. I firmly believe that the best way to learn scales and modes practically is as I suggested in my post. Double bass players don't learn in "shapes" normally.? I didn't anyway, so why should it be any different on a bass guitar? And I think that the shortcut of playing via "shapes" can become a bad habit and results in a deficiency in the visual/auditory/kinetic learning process being developed to it's full capability. The knowledge of the fretboard/fingerboard can also be limited unless a student integrates all three V.A.K. aspects when developing their skills. I had a pupil once who reckoned the shape method was best because as a bass player he didn't really have to go over the 5th fret, and once he had learned the 5 main shapes, he could get a gig anywhere He insisted on adhering to his belief, but when I explained that each shape had to be learned in 3 different ways (because of the root, 1st, 2nd and sometimes a third inversion of the arpeggio for starters) he started to realise there were no short cuts for him either. So a lot of progress is down to the motivation of the student, allied to the way he/she practices. Re: Pastorius. Jaco primarily associated his playing with sounds and "colors" I believe. His brother Gregory did an interview a while back when he disclosed Jaco's skills were honed by his 6 hours a day practising patterns based on each mode and scale in all keys. As you mentioned, perhaps Jaco did think in triads, but that doesn't mean a shape. After all, there are a number of shapes on the fingerboard that can be created to represent a triad, then you have the different inversions - isn't it easier just to learn the notes? Patterns = good I don't mean patterns on the fretboard........I mean triadic/quad/etc patterns and arpeggios developed from each scalar note of the modes and chords. Shapes = not so good Just my opinion of course. Now I'll crawl back to my sick bed (man flu - not swine) and I'm afraid the weekly lesson part 3 might not be out until next week.[/quote] Hi Rob - sorry to hear you are unwell. Hope you get better soon! Re: Shapes I suspect as usual we actually agree more than disagree. It all down to the usage of the word. I remember when I was first getting to grips with BG (I was already an accomplished DB player) that the penny dropped one day when I realised I could play a major (and minor) scale all in one position - say for instance the F major scale starting on 8th fret on the A string with 2nd finger. To me, that scale has a "shape", and within that shape are many others - the triads for instance or the major 7 arpeg, major 6 arpeg etc etc. These shapes are different to the way I view my DB fingerboard - same notes but differing finger patterns and shifts. DB players think in shapes of course - smaller "cells" maybe - but shapes all the same. Take for instance the following 4 notes ascending: E G B D (Eminor 7) If the DB player uses 4th finger on E (A string), the G is 1st finger (D string) - this is the first cell. Then shift to B 4th finger (D string) D 1st finger (G string) - the second cell. To me this has a shape. I can see it in my head - its as clear as could be. Whenever I sight read a new symphony or big band chart, I always "see" the notes as intervals under my fingers, trying to spot where the notes will lie the easiest under my fingers. Sometimes it will be 3rd time through before I finally decide on the best fingering. But always I'm trying to see the note shapes of the music as it goes along. Same with improvisation. The shapes of an arpeg give me a starting point. Afterall, we only have 4 fingers and we need to travel around that fingerboard to find the notes we want - therefore I have always tried to "see" the f'board as a series of shape possibilities. Now of course this whole idea is only a starting point. If a new player doesn't have the creative spirit, they are not going to get beyond this. I practice scales all the time - but you wouldn't recognise them as beginner scales because I break them down, arpeggiate them, try to find new patterns etc etc. But then I am an experienced player of many types of music and I know what I'm looking for. A new player has to get as much guidance as possible. And I've always found that my pupils move ahead quickly once they can see the basic shapes on which to build a firm foundation. Scales / Modes /Patterns /Shapes - we could debate these things endlessly - but they are only ever a starting point to creativity. And I am assuming that most readers of these posts want to be creative ! Otherwise why play music ? The Major

A nice little variation to Wulfs suggestion is this: CEFDEGAFGBCABDEC Play it all in one position starting on the E string ie 2nd finger on C at the 8th fret. Then do it backwards ECBDCAGBAFEGFDCE And I have to contradict RLaings opinion on shapes (sorry Rob !). I think shapes are very important and help to give clarity to one's view of the fingerboard. Jaco used to think in triads all the time, and if its good enough for him ....... The Major

[quote name='Kongo' post='537935' date='Jul 11 2009, 03:26 PM']? so I looked into PVC tubing with Denatured Alcohol.[/quote] Hi Kongo - what is Denatured Alcohol ? The Major

[quote name='hatori' post='537873' date='Jul 11 2009, 02:02 PM']I use Rotosound RB40 nickel on stainless mediums[/quote] Hi Hatori - tell me more about these strings and why you like them. The Major

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='537751' date='Jul 11 2009, 10:22 AM']In my opinion, the biggest drawback would be that it can be hard to hear yourself clearly at high volumes, so it will be much harder to know if you are in tune or not. I'm also not sure whether there would be any benefits, as it's not a genre that gives a fretless bass much opportunity to show its talents. If you end up spending the whole time watching your left hand to make sure that you're in tune, and the end result sounds exactly the same as it would if you were playing a fretted bass, then I'm not sure that you've gained anything. S.P.[/quote] I agree with SP's comments here. But, as a side issue, I'm concerned about the "high volumes" reference. If you really have to play at high volumes (and that's what so many seem to do these days), please make sure you use ear defenders. I have some quite expensive moulded ear pieces with filters that stop the damaging noise getting to your ear drum but still allow the full frequency range to get thru'. This also helps when playing fretless or DB as you can truly hear your intonation. The high volume "pain" you get without ear protection usually masks your perception of tuning. So please please get ear defenders - especially if you want to be able to hear when you are older. Pardon ! What was that ....... sorry you'll have to speak up ...... The Major

[quote name='johnny dissident' post='537865' date='Jul 11 2009, 01:37 PM']I have been playing DB for a couple of years now,following many years of EB, and although I have taken it out in public on a few occasions, I am all too aware of my shortcomings. Now I know I need a teacher, but can anybody recommend one who isn't going to take me through the grades I just require putting right in a few places and someone to be my mentor. I bet that there are a few people in my position, who don't know where to turn. I live in easy reach of anywhere in Oxon/Glos/Wilts, any recommendations gratefully received, thanks for reading.[/quote] Hi Johnny - sorry can't help with your teacher search. I'm sure others will tho'. But if your picture is anything to go by, you certainly need some technique advice ! You have what I call the "violin approach". On DB you need to ensure that your fingers are at right angles to the strings with the thumb more or less opposite the second finger. Hope you find a good teacher. The Major

[quote name='Buzz' post='537849' date='Jul 11 2009, 01:11 PM']If you did a search, there's quite a few threads about boiling strings, that little tid-bit of knowledge hasn't been lost. There's also a number of improved ways using isopropanol or meths and some pvc tubing that's better for the strings.[/quote] Buzz - many thanks - I'm new around here and had not spotted the "search" function. Very useful. The Major

Back in the early 70's (yes we had a recession then too), it was quite common for us hard-up bass guitar players to boil our strings for 15 minutes in a large pot to re-invigorate the tone quality. It meant you could get a few more gigs out of the set. I suppose it removed all the dead skin and sweat and brought them back to life. Does anybody do that any more ? May be a good idea if you are suffering from the credit-crunch ! In those early days I used to change strings (always Rotosound Swing Bass - there were few good alternatives) perhaps once a month - I was playing 5 nights a week, 3 hours a night, so they quickly lost their zing. These days I'm a bit lazy - only change them when I have a particularly high profile gig or session. Which is why I remembered this old trick. I have a gig at the Albert Hall coming up and need to be sounding my best so I'm just about to put the new set on - strings are cheaper (relative to wages) these days but still over £20 for a 5 string set, so I'm not going to change them too often. Maybe I'll boil them ! How often do you guys / girls renew your strings ? The Major

[quote name='Doddy' post='537547' date='Jul 10 2009, 09:56 PM']I disagree with the method of just ploughing through.[/quote] Actually Jakebass was referring to [u]sight-reading practise[/u] rather than practice per se. And I think he's right - its good to test yourself with a piece you've never seen before. Try to get to the end without stopping - keeping the pulse constant. Because in a real performance situation you can't stop if you make an error, you just have to plough on and hold your nerve. This takes practice. To be fair, Jake is assuming a certain level of reading competence. If you can't sight read, then this advice is not for you. But Doddy is also correct: When doing private practise, you should break down the piece into small sections and perfect them before moving on. But take care to make the whole piece work smoothly when you put it back together. I've had many instances of pupils getting so used to thinking in the short phrases they practiced, that they then struggle to put it all back together again. And to add to Jake's advice re working with a conductor /MD: Ideally you need to be able to see the conductor with your peripheral vision at all times. It's quite possible to see the part and the MD at the same time. Never bury your head in the music. If you can't see him/her you need to adjust your sitting position or the height of the music stand. And you need to get used to playing without watching your hands - maybe the occasional glance when you change position (on BG) - its a lot easier on DB as you just have to use your ears to know whether you are in the right place. The Major

[quote name='peted' post='537069' date='Jul 10 2009, 10:05 AM']Would love to get into some kind of amateur orchestra/big band when i've worked my way through the book a couple of times to get the practice in. Anyone got an idea where these types of bands advertise?[/quote] Probably the best place to start is your local music shop - many of these have a noticeboard with ads by the local orchs/ bands etc. In my city, Manchester, there is a shop called Forsyths which has a huge noticeboard by the main door - oodles of ads for every type of music activity - and teachers as well. And this is a good point: Its all very well teaching yourself to read from books or self help CD's etc. But it's so easy to get into bad habits, especially with rhythms. You might think you can play a particular passage - but actually you are most likely to be making loads of errors. [u] Get a teacher[/u] - ideally someone who actually plays for a living (even part time ) and really knows what they are doing. You need the pressure of "performing" to that teacher to really get to grips with the written note. I know everybody keeps banging on about this on BC, but getting a teacher really is the best (and quickest) way forward. The Major

Very often people say "Yes I can read music" - then you put something in front of them and yes, they can work it out very slowly, and eventually get an approximation of the part. But that is not sight reading ! Sight reading is playing a part you have never before seen and getting it (mostly) right first time. Now this takes a lot of work and there is no easy way forward. You just have to slog at it. But a good way to make yourself do it: Spend some time getting to know all the notes and basic rhythm patterns (this will take some time) - then join a local amateur band/orchestra - depending on your musical preference - maybe a swing band, jazz band or an orchestra (if on DB) - there are always opportunities in most areas. The point being that, when under pressure to get it right, you will take it in with more concentration and more determination. Then it will start to get easier, because you will recognize the patterns that emerge in music sight-reading. Written music is just like a language - you can study it from books, or you can get out there and "converse" with other musicians. A combination of both methods is the best way forward. The Major

You guys are SO lucky........ my wife makes me tidy all my instruments away every night ! The Major

[quote name='mcgraham' post='534405' date='Jul 7 2009, 09:12 AM']I don't think anyone really likes having to go back to basics.[/quote] Actually, I think its a good idea to "go back to basics" at the start of every practise session. Rather than go straight to your favourite riffs or licks, begin with slow scales and arpeggios, checking that all the little technique points are taken care of ie left hand position, angle of attack in right hand, keeping your head straight, general posture etc etc Gradually increase the speed of each scale or arpeg but still keeping everything under control. Ten minutes of this will do wonders for your general technique. Then you can thrash away to your hearts content on your fave bits.......... The Major

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but I've just heard the very sad news that one the UK's best Double Bass players has passed away. Dave Fletcher has died in his sleep at the age of 37. Until 18 months ago, Dave was Principal Double Bass with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. He had relocated to London to pursue a freelance career and, last time I spoke to him, he was also embarking on a Sound Engineering Course. Dave and I had many chats about our shared enthusiasm for composing using computer technology and I knew he was keen to take this further. I only knew Dave briefly, when he came and did several weeks work as guest Principal with the BBC orchestra I play in. Hw was a great musician, a charming man, and the bass world is poorer for his absence. Dave had appeared at Glastonbury the weekend before his death performing with Colourama. You can hear and see Dave on this BBC web page, which has been posted as a tribute to him: [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/glastonbury/2009/artists/colorama/index.shtml"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/glastonbury/2009/arti...ama/index.shtml[/url] My heart goes out to his girlfriend, ex wife and two small children.

Jake I've only just stumbled on this thread - what a bummer that Jim is out of action. Please keep us informed if you hear any more. He came up and played with our trio last year - what a lovely guy! I was a big fan in the 80's when he had the Morrisey-Mullen band. Saw them a couple of times at the Band on the Wall. Jim is a national treasure. I hope its not too serious.......? The Major

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533909' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:44 PM']BBC studio work? Nice. Do you get a fair amount of variety in your day then? I totally agree about them being different instruments. I'm happy to admit I'm not a DBer, but I believe that they are physically different enough that they warrant treating as different instruments that are more or less independent from one another. I personally treat the bass more like a classical guitar than an upright. Mark[/quote] Actually my BBC work is mainly on the classical side - you may know the Beeb has 5 orchestras around the country. I'm a member of one of those - now in my 37th year ! But I've always played bass guitar / jazz double bass - everything from rock,pop, funk and jazz to cabaret, theatre work and big bands plus oodles of education work - and also some very interesting fusion work with Indian Classical (Carnatic) and Chinese musos. So yes my musical life is very varied! I also compose /arrange/orchestrate/produce.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533842' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:02 PM']So you double on both bass and upright? How do you find the difference in technique? Do you find a great deal of crossover? Mark[/quote] I think of them as separate instruments. Yes there are similarities but I put on a new head for each. I spend most days working on DB (BBC studio work) and if I have a BG gig in the evening I need to do at least 30 mins warm up before feeling comfortable with it. The biggest problem is when I play both on one gig, changing from one to the other with no time to re-think. Earlier this year i did a short tour with some Star dancers from a well known BBC TV Entertainment show and this required playing both DB and BG. I actually got quite good at the quick change, mainly because I practised doing it at home. 15 mins on one then 15 mins on the other for several hours ! I think the main prob is in the left thumb. The grip is a different distance (hope that makes sense!). When you go onto BG after DB, it feels so small. And vice versa. But I'm glad I play both. There are not many who do (to pro standard), so there is more call for the "doubler". The Major

[quote name='james_guitar' post='533492' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:11 AM']. I'm using the tips of the fingers and when using the 4th finger I have other fingers pushed down behind it (with the other fingers positioned around whatever scale position or shape I'm in). I've heard that some double bassists use their 1st, 2nd & 4th fingers almost exclusively on the left hand. Are their any benefits to this? I've always either used 1st, 2nd and 4th or 1st 3rd and 4th based on whatever position of a scale I've been in on the neck.[/quote] Ah - I think we've got to the core of your technique problem here, James. All the others have mentioned the usual DB technique tips so I won't cover those points again. But you should NOT be using the tips of your 1st and 4th fingers on DB, but rather (what are usually called) the "pads". Effectively, your first and fourth fingers should be fairly straight (maybe just a slight curve on the 1st) and the 2nd finger will naturally be more bent as it is longer and needs to fit in. The gap between 1 and 2 should be the same as between 2 and 4, with the 3rd (unused) sort of allying itself to the 4th ie whenever the 4th is down so is the 3rd. And as Jennifer pointed out, its good practise to have all the fingers on the string when playing a note with the 4th. When you've been playing a while, you might want to do vibrato and that will require a little more freedom from the usual beginner position. Also, on guitar you are thinking in chord shapes. On DB its best to keep all the fingers on one string at a time. Don't be tempted to leave a finger behind on a note that you think you might need in a moment (well not at this stage anyway). The Major

[quote name='mcgraham' post='533793' date='Jul 6 2009, 02:11 PM']Thanks MM. Woah!! Floating thumb demands a bent wrist?!? Definitely not! If anything it demands a [u][i]straight [/i][/u]wrist. Check out Todd Johnson's video on Youtube. If you've got a bent wrist then are possibly not muting the lowest strings effectively when playing the highest (the dropping of the elbow forces the heel of the hand away from the strings), and you'd also be prone to the pain you've described. Please forgive me if I sound like I'm lecturing, I just can't stand the thought of technique induced pain! Mark[/quote] Sorry Mark - I probably described my playing style in the wrong terms. If you look at Laurence Cottle's website www.laurencecottle.com you will see a vid of him playing. This is more or less my style ie the bass slung fairly high, right wrist bent a little and you can see what I would call the floating thumb. This may be different to your interpretation. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that my tennis elbow is as a direct result of this technique change. I also (and mostly) play DB. I bought a new bow a few months ago which is a lot heavier than I'm used to (but a good bow all the same). This may have contributed to the RSI problem. Plus I'm just getting old ! (58 last week). I;d been getting a few twinges in the right arm but thought little of it. Then had a week's holiday, came back and with only a 30 mins warm up, straight into a long function gig on BG - one of those where you don't stop for 2 hours. After that I could hardly move my right arm. So my own fault really ! I'm finding that the more I play at the moment the less pain I get - seems the wrong way round doesn't it ? I had similar probs in my left arm some years ago - had loads of time off and physio / massage etc but the problem returned as soon as I started work again. Eventually it just went away and I'm hopeful that will be the case with my right arm. The Major

Mark has made some very well informed points in this thread. For many years i played my Fender Jazz with my thumb (mostly) anchored on the bridge pickup, to the point that there is now an indentation in the wood ! Last year, I was so worried about taking a 1962 Jazz into dodgy venues that I bought a Yamaha TRB1005 5 string which I now use all the time. (If IT gets knicked its not the end of the world). With having 5 strings, I soon found that I was getting a lot of ringing-on from the E and A strings if I was, say, soloing in the upper reaches on the G and D. This caused me to re-assess my right hand technique, and now I use what I suppose could be called the floating thumb technique ie my thumb is in line with the fingers but sort of lying on the strings that need to be muted.I move the thumb around according to which strings I need to play on. This all works very well from a musical perspective. But there has been a down side: Due to the more bent wrist position that this technique demands, I am now getting "tennis elbow" - quite severe pains at times - but I'm doing some stretching excersizes before playing and that seems to help. The Major

[quote name='endorka' post='533587' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:25 AM']Flute, piano, double bass, drums. You can hear the man himself playing it here; [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVtLVSzESU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dVtLVSzESU[/url] Jennifer[/quote] Thanks Jennifer. I had a look at that. Nice stuff - great for the more formal type concerts. Presuming Baroque and Blue is just one piece in a suite, did you perform the whole thing ? The Major

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='533612' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:01 AM']Re: acoustic playing. I agree that, in practice, it helps but, if this is the case, you need to have some conversations about why that is. You should be able to sound musical and sensitive plugged into a 1000 watt Marshall - its about playing with musicians not players.[/quote] Thanks for your reply Bilbo - as always very erudite. And I agree with all you say. The point I was making re: acoustic playing is simply that the DB has a beautiful rich mellow acoustic tone which comes into it's own in the right setting ie while playing with other acoustic instruments in a sympathetic acoustic space. As soon as we amplify it, the sound changes. Certain aspects of the sound are brought out which work fine with other amplified instruments. I love using an amp in the right context. On a bepop / straightahead type gig, the amped sound will fit nicely. In the Gypsy Jazz / Hot Club combo I play in, the guitarist sometimes brings a little amp, and I always groan when I see him plugging in. The group sound changes, the dynamic changes, and the overall tone quality seems to lose something. A few years ago, we did an orchestral concert that included a short item by the orch's jazz group. I amped the bass very subtly for this number but the amp was sort of hidden behind me. One of the other orch bass players came up to me and said how impressed he was with the big tone I was getting from my DB. I didn't tell him that it was amplified ! The Major

I always keep a nice yellow duster handy and wipe the neck between numbers. Gotta be a YELLOW duster tho' !! Other colours just don't work. The Major

Can I add to this: I think its really important to practise playing with different levels of right hand "attack". Some styles of music require you to play very consistently dynamic wise, but there are many genres where you need to be able to play at differing volume levels. And I'm not referring to the idea of a using a volume pedal or adjusting volume on your bass, but to the idea that you can change the texture of the sound by using more, or less, right-hand pressure on the string. You also should get used to playing on different areas of the string: Tight up against the bridge will give you a great "in yer face" sound - edgy and focussed. At the end of the fingerboard will sound round and warm if played gently - or if you lay into the string at this point you can get lots of interesting extraneous sounds. Each area of the string will feel different under the fingers, so you need to get used to this. The Major

[quote name='endorka' post='532193' date='Jul 4 2009, 12:54 AM']That sounds brilliant! I'd like to hear more Claude Bolling, last year I played "Baroque and Blue"- acoustically of course - and it is an impressive thing indeed. Jennifer[/quote] Hi Jennifer I don't know "Baroque and Blue". What's it scored for ? The Major