dlloyd

[quote name='AM1' post='497363' date='May 25 2009, 04:18 PM']Hi - reading on the bass hasn't really helped to develop instantaneous knowledge of the fretboard, i.e. where the same notes can be found on different parts of the fretboard, or how to play various fills in different positions. Anyone can learn a piano keyboard very, very quickly, because there is an easy visual reference of where the notes in an octave repeat themselves - i.e. (let's assume C major scale so without going into enharmonic equivalents) before every 2 black keys the immediate key to the left is a C and before every 3 black keys the note to the immediate left is an F. Where you find a note on the stave for a piano key, it relates to a specific PITCH on the piano keyboard. The bass is a different animal in that the same note (pitch) can be found in different locations on the bass plus it is tuned in 4ths - so reading bass music has not been conducive for me to learn the fretboard instinctively.[/quote] It comes with time. There'll be situations where a middle C goes to a high G and you'll realise you need to use the tenth fret C rather than the fifth fret C. It might take you a while to find it the first time, but the next time it'll be quicker and you'll gradually absorb it. [quote]YES - it's exercises that will help, not notation. I have had advice from two different schools of thought overall on this topic and some say learn patterns i.e. modes, scales and intervals but not necessarily all the note names - others say, no you must know the note names, then things like modulation and transposing will be easier.[/quote] There's no 'must' about it. It depends what you want to learn. Learning the shapes is probably the most valuable thing to learn first as someone playing rock music.

[quote name='AM1' post='497329' date='May 25 2009, 03:32 PM']But I can read and it makes no difference whatsoever to live playing. I can read bass clef and know the notes instantly on the stave but I have to figure out where they are on the bass. As with Golchen, I know on a piano keyboard, instantly, every note, which means sight reading and learning music off notation is much easier, whereas sight reading and learning music off written notation on the bass takes a bit more time.[/quote] That's the exact point. Practicing reading on the bass will sort this out for you. You need to get it to the point where you associate the written note with the played note without having to translate it through its note name. That's how you got to know the piano keyboard, right? [quote]For those who said that they do know every note they're playing, do you always also know the full song structures i.e. guitar chords, etc?[/quote] Yes. Perhaps not the voicing. [quote]This is about live playing. The reading thing is handy but it has to be kept in context. Reading too much (in my experience) can cause dependency on written music and create constraints in improvisation skills[/quote] It won't if you don't let it. Some of the best improvisers I know were classically trained. I've also played with classically trained musicians who can't improvise to save themselves. The problem isn't the classical training per se, it's lack of experience in improvisation. [quote]Any exercises that can help with learning the notes would be useful.[/quote] You could always play 'find the note'... write notes on bits of paper, put them in a bag, and pick them at random... You pick the specific string then put your hand in the bag, then you find the note...

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='497168' date='May 25 2009, 11:24 AM']Is this what we all need, then? (Taken from the Yamaha AES Frank Gambale Signature guitar) This would make a difference, presumably. I should imagine this cures the lower fret inaccuracy, but what about allowing just intonation? The question that begs is; If this necessary to achieve tuning accuracy (and I'm not inferring that it isn't), why haven't manufacturers adopted it en masse?[/quote] It (or a variation of it) might sort it, as long as consistent string stiffness could be guaranteed. I don't know how much different string gauge would affect it. In any case, for most of us it's another of those solutions without a problem, and most people would see wavy frets as a gimmick. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a couple of years when Buzz Feiten's patent runs out.

[quote name='Golchen' post='497271' date='May 25 2009, 01:46 PM']I'm crap on theory, I don't know fretboards very well at all but I can make music on guitars and basses. I do know all the notes instantly on a piano though. I wish I could memorise all the notes on guitar/bass, but after many years it just hasn't happened.[/quote] It's a lot easier if you force yourself to read. I get a bit fuzzy on the reading further up the fretboard. Jeff Berlin reckons trombone music is great for practicing reading on electric bass and, in this case, what he says makes sense. It might be worth going through the ABRSM syllabus for trombone and working your way through some of the earlier grades. [url="http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyllabusComplete08.pdf"]http://www.abrsm.org/resources/tromboneSyl...sComplete08.pdf[/url]

[quote name='AM1' post='497019' date='May 25 2009, 01:27 AM']So my question - do you always know, even when impro'ing, every single note you play?[/quote] Yes and no. I know what note I'm playing, and could tell you its name, scale degree, relationship to the root, etc., but I don't actually [i]think[/i] about it when I'm playing. Even when I'm reading I'm not thinking about the names of the notes. Sure, I know what their name is, but I bypass thinking about what it is. If that makes any sense!

[quote name='grumble' post='497002' date='May 25 2009, 12:52 AM']Depends on your definition of 'in reach' I say to 'er indoors that I'm going to spend 2k on a pretty bass and her reply would be via a solicitor ! Maybe I should cash in my 'beginners luck' and buy my first lottery ticket ?[/quote] Relative to the originals, of course!

[quote name='grumble' post='496982' date='May 25 2009, 12:29 AM']Oh bugger, I've fallen in love again.... [url="http://www.zemaitis.net/zemaitis-b22-mt-dcpj-metal-front-bass-guitar.htm"]with this[/url] Fortunately I'm never likely to be able to afford one.[/quote] Lovely, isn't it? Fortunately (unfortunately?) I think that's one of the Greco licensed versions... no idea where you get them, but they're within reach (£2000? I think)

Just intonated bass (I would love to try this out): Sweetened guitar (Yamaha Fretwave system, sweetens open A and E chords):

[quote name='rslaing' post='496934' date='May 24 2009, 11:38 PM']WHy don't you try and disprove this too:- [b]Dedicated Tuning Options for All Genres The StroboFlip is the first tuner to feature Sweeteners™ - preset perfect fifth intervals for violin, viola or cello; perfect thirds for Dobro® or resonator guitars; tuning and intonation presets for the Buzz Feiten Tuning System® for guitar, bass, and acoustic guitar; and both Buzz and Peterson Sweetened settings for 12-string guitar. The StroboFlip also includes E9th & C6th pedal steel guitar presets, exclusive Peterson presets for the whole guitar family, and more! A long list of classic temperament presets such as [i][u]Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, 1/4 & 1/6th Comma Meantone, Werckmeister III, Kirnberger III, Kellner, Young, Vallotti and Rameau[/u][/i] are also included. These temperaments are all root adjustable. [/b][/quote] As I said, it's a fantastic pedal. Almost certainly the best tuner pedal that's out there. But it caters for a lot more than fretted guitars and basses. For instance, I play a few other instruments as well as bass and guitar. As unfashionable as it is, my first instrument is clarinet, although I've let it slip in recent years and I'm badly out of practice. A fairly recent development in woodwind pedagogy is practicing long tones using a tuner. Tuning of wind instruments, particularly clarinets which overblow at the 12th is notoriously difficult, especially since embouchure (mouth shape and lip pressure on the mouthpiece) can seriously influence pitch. For instance, I can bend some notes by as much as a whole tone or more, depending on the type of reed and mouthpiece I'm using (less so on orchestral style pieces: narrow appertures, hard reeds). The embouchure you use for playing a bottom E is completely different than that used for a top C, and the use of an incorrect embouchure can drastically affect your tuning. When I was actively going to lessons, more than twenty years ago, you'd rely on your ears to get you there, but now the fashion is to practice with a tuner. So clarinetists have gone out and bought cheap tuners en masse and are all practicing to equally tempered scales which, to my mind is insane... your ears are far more accurate. But I can see an argument for advanced students (ie. beyond grade 8) tuning to orchestral temperaments, such as just intonation, which this pedal supplies. The same idea could be advanced for fretless basses... if you have a piece in Bb major that you want to practice to its logical conclusion, you'd set the pedal to just intonation in the key of Bb and go from there. But with fretted instruments, there's little point. Just intonation has no application to a fixed pitch instrument, unless you are actively bending the notes to compensate for equal temperament. I don't know of anyone doing that... if they were, you'd expect them to have boasted about it to the magazines by now. Tuning sweeteners, such as those Petersen give for Dobro, cater for styles where specific intervals tend to fall on specific strings. If you're playing slide in open G, you will find major thirds often fall on the second string ('B' when you're barring a whole chord. It's a no-brainer to adjust the tuning to bring that major third closer to just temperament. Similarly, if you're playing simple pop/folk music where you're using open chords, you'll find again that the major third tends to fall on one of a couple of strings, and we've all seen guitarists tune to open chords.

Mods: I realise this thread is way off-topic. Could it remain open while I answer rslaing's final point?

[quote name='rslaing' post='496908' date='May 24 2009, 11:06 PM']I didn't say it did. The Feiten system overcomes the main problem with fretted instruments and overall tuning. AND HAS THE FACILITY IF DESIRED, to tune to any temperament you wish - including just tempered.[/quote] No it doesn't. You cannot tune an equally tempered fixed pitch instrument to just intonation. It has the facility to tune specific notes within any given temperament, but as soon as you tune any string to one specific note, every other note on that string is out of tune in just intonation. For instance, let's assume you're wanting to intonate a 34" bass in the key of A major using just intonation. We'll ignore the lower fret problem for the moment as it's irrelevant to the question of temperament. We'll also just stick to the notes of the major scale in the first octave. You would tune the major scale using the ratios: 9/8, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 15/8, 2/1 In cents, that's 203.91, 386.31, 498.04, 701.96, 884.36, 1088.27 and 1200.00 To achieve that, you have to physically move the frets. 2nd fret: Major second. 3.91 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 1.7 mm towards bridge. 4th fret: Major third. 13.91 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 5.4 mm towards nut. 5th fret: Perfect fourth. 1.96 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards nut. 7th fret: Perfect fifth. 1.96 cents sharp relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 0.7 mm towards bridge. 9th fret: Major sixth. 15.64 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 4.7 mm towards nut. 11th fret: Major seventh. 11.73 cents flat relative to 12 tone equal temperament. Requires movement of fret 3.11 mm towards nut. 12th fret: Perfect octave stays where it is. Using just intonation, you end up with frets all over the place, as the formula changes for every single string, and at the end of it, you've solved it for a single key. I would ignore the people who are 'supporting' you.

[quote name='rslaing' post='496894' date='May 24 2009, 10:49 PM'][b]No you don't - just move or use a compensated nut (haven't you read the Feiten blurb yet?) and then use a Peterson tuner[/b][/quote] This is getting kind of boring. The Feiten system does not magically create just intonation. It compensates for lower fret inaccuracy.

[quote name='rslaing' post='496891' date='May 24 2009, 10:39 PM'][i] ""The peterson probably can help with equal temperament stuff by using compensated tunings, but this is more to do with features than accuracy. Also, even with funny tunings and intonations this can only help hide the problems caused by equal temperament frets. It cannot make an equal temperament fretboard produce, for example, a just temperament scale. [b]OH YES IT CAN. READ THE MANUAL ONLINE[/b][/quote] No it can't. The fretboard is equally tempered. To just temper it, you need to physically move the frets.

[quote name='Hamster' post='496714' date='May 24 2009, 05:40 PM']Thinking about the way in which some cabinet manufacturers make questionable claims about their cabs sensitivity, unless anyone here has subjected all these tuners to independent bench testing, are we being sucked just a little bit into the manufacturers hype about their own products?[/quote] The Buzz Feiten system that rslaing is advocating along with this tuner is a neat system for dealing with a mechanical problem that's inherent in fretted instruments, in that the lower frets play sharper than they should due to the way the string stretches to a greater degree when you fret in these positions. This particular system involves requires an adjustment to the open string tuning, which means that you need to use a tuner with a special function that will tune the open string slightly flat (2 cents on most strings, it varies on guitar though). There are other tuners that have this function and they will work just as well as a strobostomp. Other manufacturers compensated nuts use standard tuning. I'd like to try out a Buzz Feiten system guitar, just to see if it does seem any different... I can honestly say the lower fret issue doesn't bother me that much, or, frankly, that I've ever noticed it when I haven't been looking for it, particularly when you've got additional temperament issues going on... the major third being 13 cents out of tune for example. Maybe compensated nuts work on a more subconscious level. The Feiten system is not designed to address issues of equal temperament, and while the strobostomp does have alternative temperament systems, they're not applicable to equally tempered instruments. The 0.1 cent accuracy claims are probably true, but any assertion that this level of accuracy is in any way necessary (or detectable by the human ear) in a real musical situation is pretty much hype.

* If you're speaking specifically about using one with the Buzz Feiten system, then absolutely... it will work better than a standard bass or guitar tuned with a standard tuner.

[quote name='rslaing' post='496645' date='May 24 2009, 03:41 PM']You should have read the previous posts. The Peterson combats a lot of the points you have made, including problems with equal temperament on fretted instruments.[/quote] No it doesn't. It can adjust the tuning of every single note on a given string so that a single note will be more in tune with the key you are playing in. The only application for this is if you are consistently playing one specific interval on a given string. Great if you're playing simple guitar chords, but not much use for a bass player.* *I'm certainly willing to be corrected on this.

[quote name='rslaing' post='495895' date='May 23 2009, 11:08 AM']You are welcome. And thanks for the totally expected response that has contributed magnificently to the topic. And to cordially respond to your points. I do listen to music pre-1997, some of the material I like was recorded in the 1930's. I prefer classical stuff which if the orchestra adopted your theories, would make things very interesting.[/quote] Orchestral music doesn't operate anywhere near 0.1 cent tuning precision/accuracy. Petersen strobostomps are certainly the most precise pedal tuners out there. They look great, are easy to use and I'd certainly prefer to use one for setting intonation on a fretted instrument. I'd choose one over a TU-2 any day, if I had the cash to spare. However, that level of precision is overkill for most practical musical situations, regardless of the marketing hype on Petersen's website. Your ears simply aren't sensitive to that level of precision. A tempered perfect fourth is inherently 2 cents out of tune, but we don't find string dependent levels of discomfort between the upper partials that Petersen are suggesting we would. In any case, how accurate is fret placement, even on top end guitars? For the high A example Petersen give, you'd need a fret placement accuracy of around 10 micrometers... is that even possible?

[quote name='bubinga5' post='495470' date='May 22 2009, 06:49 PM']Any opinions on these types of strings...Im in two minds..I love the zingy sound from Stainless, but the feel is very tacky to my fingers sometimes (especially when the humidity is high)...But i love the feel of Nickles (i love the smooth feel) but the tone is not so bright...I do love a bright sounding string that has been played a few times, and has the edge taken off it... My choice strings have been Elite's Stainless for a while now, as they have a great bright/modern sound to them... I also like Labella Flats for flat wounds. Is there anything in the middle of the two?? What are Elixers like?[/quote] Seriously, give Thomastik jazz flats a go. If you like Labella flats, but want a livlier tone, you'll love these.

[quote name='AM1' post='494866' date='May 22 2009, 08:18 AM']I don't use flatwounds. I use 45-105 roundwounds. By the way, Jamerson may have used "dead" flats but he also used a '62 P Bass, a tone monster in itself, as well as playing more like a double bassist with an extremely high action and using signal boosting for overdrive. There's dead and there's blackened and black roundwounds do NOT sound good![/quote] Bernard Edwards and Michael Henderson are two players who used rounds and rarely (if ever) changed them.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='494713' date='May 21 2009, 10:15 PM']If you were to choose any active pick up set to go into a passive Jazz bass (without a pre amp) to replace a Single Coil set, what would you go for and why...Something hum cancelling... Interested to know what you all think about differences in tones between brands? EMG Nordstrand Bartolini Wizard Villex any other suggestions?[/quote] Is this for your new 1970 reissue?

[quote name='pete.young' post='494778' date='May 21 2009, 11:28 PM']If it was good enough for Jamerson ... If you use flatwounds, there's really no point in changing them.[/quote] Good enough for a lot of the greats.

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='494419' date='May 21 2009, 04:24 PM']Ah, right. They're "hang on the wall, don't dare to play" jobs. Doesn't matter what they sound like! [/quote] No, he just didn't make them for plebs. This is probably the most famous one: He also made acoustics. Here's one... (that one went for £130,000) And this cheeky little feller is playing a Zemaitis... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKaLqATmm3g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKaLqATmm3g[/url]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='494389' date='May 21 2009, 03:58 PM']Ugh. They really do nothing for me. And don't those tops do something horrific to the sound?[/quote] I wouldn't worry about it... original Zemaitis guitars (not the Greco licenced copies that only cost a thousand quid or so) are far out of reach for most of us mortals... we're talking tens of thousands of pounds.

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='494287' date='May 21 2009, 02:33 PM']Dunno, but check out one of their guitars: the [url="http://www.muse-inc.com/product/product.php?CID=19&IID=161"]Blues Line Abalone[/url]. It's like the inside of a disco crustacean. The horror... the horror...[/quote] They're Zemaitis copies... Compare the one above with this [url="http://www.zemaitisclub.com/zemaitis-pearl-front-guitar.htm"]http://www.zemaitisclub.com/zemaitis-pearl-front-guitar.htm[/url] And this metal fronted Muse [url="http://www.muse-inc.com/product/product.php?CID=19&IID=165"]http://www.muse-inc.com/product/product.ph...=19&IID=165[/url] ...with this [url="http://www.zemaitisclub.com/zemaitis-metal-front-guitar-mark2.htm"]http://www.zemaitisclub.com/zemaitis-metal...uitar-mark2.htm[/url]

[quote name='clauster' post='494164' date='May 21 2009, 12:47 PM']Thought about that last night, but see comments re DIY [/quote] Yep, I'm the same (two years to finish painting a bathroom), but we're talking about unscrewing four screws, then screwing them back in again... hardly DIY.