alexclaber

It isn't about whether you want to buy one of our cabs or not, it's about the misguided assumption that all speakers of a given size have essentially the same performance! It didn't used to be possible to get 200bhp out of a naturally aspirated 2.0 litre engine whilst getting 30mpg day to day and running reliably for 100,000 miles with little more than oil changes either... Progress!

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1319474527' post='1414596'][size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial][color=#222222][font=Arial]What does the Big Baby do with the 100% more bottom? [/font][/color][/font][/color][/size][/quote] Whatever you want it to! Just like two identical 12"s have 100% more max output than one, this has 100% more max output than a typical bass guitar 12". It achieves that through a doubling of max cone excursion rather than the usual doubling of cone area. This means you can turn your amp up much louder before the tone starts to change (getting thinner and more compressed) due to over-excursion. The best way to think of all the extra potential output is as actual headroom, which is often applied to amps without considering whether the cabs can do anything with it!

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1319467794' post='1414422']As one who runs 12's and hears the limitations, I remain sceptical.[/quote] The problem is that you're treating all 12" woofers as the same! Volume displacement, which is clean cone excursion (Xmax) multiplied by cone area (Sd), determines the maximum low frequency output of a loudspeaker, assuming that the port remains linear. Ports never remain linear at high SPL so a large and well designed port also matters significantly. The Aguilar GS112 has a driver with a Vd of ~240cc - and it isn't a bad driver by any means, it's fairly typical of the decent bass guitar 12"s. The Midget has a driver with a Vd of 330cc. The Big Baby has a driver with a Vd of 496cc. So the Midget's woofer can produce ~35% more bottom than the GS112 whilst the Big Baby's woofer can produce over 100% more bottom. So if you find you need two GS112s to produce enough bottom at a gig a single Big Baby (or Thunderchild or Baer 112) could match that.

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1319459226' post='1414270']From memory the Big Baby isn't that baby - its doing a different job. The BF Midget is both pretty small and remarkable in how big a space it can cover...but would need PA support for any real rock setting.[/quote] Yes, the Big Baby is bigger than many 1x12"s but so too are most of these 'Super 1x12s'. I'm just updating the site feedback at the moment and there's some about the Big Baby but it's very much a niche cab. Give it some real power and it'll show up much bigger cabs - the last one that went out replaced a 6x10"! Regarding the Midget, that's also one of these 'Super 1x12s' but downsized so there's less deep bottom available. The Baer, Acme and AudioKinesis all use woofers based on the two variants in the Midget and Big Baby, so a notch up from those found in other 'boutique' 1x12"s. The fEarful and Big Series cabs have the same roots in conversations between Greenboy and myself over the years, though there's been some divergence and optimisation since. The Midget can actually handle rock gigs without PA support (within reason!) - here's an example, with only vocals running through the PA: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgfaoq5J3kY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgfaoq5J3kY[/url]

Asking this question here is like asking people in a cosmetic surgeon's waiting room if they're ever happy with their looks! Cat 1: Seriously though, I've always tended to hung around the amp forums because I've been interested in it and am constantly hunting to see if things can be done better - I'm sure I'm not the only one. Those of us that fit in that category aren't necessarily unhappy (I've rarely been dissatisfied with my sound on gigs or recordings) but we are searching to see if improvement is possible. Cat 2: There's also the category of those who like to help out those who need help on the amplification front - but I'd say that many of those cross over with the preceding category. Cat 3: There are those who are here because they were once dissatisfied with their tone but they like the discussion so they've continued to hang around now they've found a solution. Cat 4: Then there's those who are in here because they want advice of getting better gear. They're clearly not currently happy. Cat 5: Then there's those who are really actively hunting for satisfaction through changing their amplification frequently. I'd suggest that they rarely find happiness (of the amplification kind) because they don't hold onto their gear for long enough to get inside it. Some do but they're the lucky ones! Cat 6: They're happy with their tone so don't come on here, they're sorted! Cat 7: They're unhappy with their tone but don't know about this place! As someone who's designing, manufacturing and selling gear I'm very thankful that a few of our existing customers are the ever curious Cat.1 variety, the helpful Cat.2 variety and the sociable Cat.3 variety, because most of them are now Cat.6. And I'm always particularly glad when a purchase turns someone from a Cat. 5 to a Cat.6 - breaking the cycle!

But conversely even more so of AUBs so that leaves you with an interesting stylistic decision!

Make sure you mark which end is which: We use 4-pole at the amp end and 2-pole on the cab end of bridging cables to avoid mistakes!

I'll explain how to set your rack up on Monday. As you know your cab isn't 'very inefficient' like an Acme cab - if it was inefficient you'd have needed to turn your amp up much more than with your EBS neo 2x12". You'd need more than 3x the power to get a stack of two of the new Acme 1x12"s up to the same SPL (although they handle less power, not more, so max SPL would work out about 6dB lower). Few bass cabs exceed 95dB in the lows per 12" and when they do it's thanks to a mid-bass hump so you gain there but lose in the real bass.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1319201124' post='1411193']Does the fact that it is "louder than it's watts" make any kind of difference though, this is where I get confused tbh! 450 TCE watts have been proved not to be real world watts (although watts mean sod all anyway) however they reproduce a volume similar the standard output from a 450-500w head.[/quote] They may sound as loud to many people but they don't measure as loud. I can see why people like them and I continue to recommend them to customers when that sound will suit them but having tried them myself at properly high SPL with a cab that can handle far more power without compression I can clearly hear what the processing's doing. Nice sounding and loud amp though, despite not being my bag! [quote name='charic' timestamp='1319201124' post='1411193']The bit that is a little stuck in my head is the fact that it's recreating these kind of volume levels which surely must translate into the speakers moving the same amount as they do for a standard 450-500w head...[/quote] No, they aren't producing the dB SPL of a more powerful amp, just as the peak dB SPL coming from an album like Californication isn't as loud as the peak dB SPL coming from Songs In The Key Of Life when both are turned up to equal loudness on your hi-fi. You can do a quick and dirty test of this by cranking up two such dissimilarly produced albums and see how much more your hi-fi woofers move on the 'quieter' album. Regarding the thermal thing Bill, one would hope that if a cab is rated at 250W its woofers have endured the usual 1000W peak 250W average AES test for two hours. Surely it would have to be a really crazily loud and long non-stop gig for the RH450 to exceed those thermal challenges?

To address the specific problem, the real power output of the RH450 is ~130W into 8 ohms. The RS210 can handle 250W thermally so you can't overheat it. The woofers in the RS210 have small magnets (hence the low-ish weight for a ferrite thick-walled cab) and their sensitivity isn't that low so their maximum linear excursion must be low, thus I'd guess that the cab can handle somewhere around 100W before distortion/compression increases rapidly due to over-excursion (passing the mechanical limit) and you start to approach the failure point. As the RH450 only produces 130W into this load you're not going to be able to push the cab so hard that you reach the mechanical failure point (although you may hear some harmless distortion) so crank it to your heart's desires without fear!

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1319119073' post='1410160']How is a power rating moot when the question at hand is can I turn my amp to full without breaking the cab?[/quote] Because it's only half the picture and not the important part. Speakers have to move to generate sound and the amount they can move limits power handling in a mechanical sense. The voice coils in speakers get hot and the amount of heat they can handle limits power handling in a thermal sense. With bass cabs 95%+ of the time you run into the mechanical limit before you reach the thermal limit. The standard power handling rating is unfortunately the less relevant thermal limit.

[quote name='bass_by_name' timestamp='1319035480' post='1409160']Most kit is a compromise of some kind... ...Apart from the stupidly expensive gear like Krampera and the Hellborg.[/quote] Everything is a compromise - it's the nature of engineering. But the important thing to remember is that 'compromise' isn't a bad word in this engineering context. With very expensive gear you may not be compromising based on cost but you're still having to trade off other compromises - and the Krampera and Hellborg gear isn't sufficiently 'stupidly expensive' for cost not to be an issue!

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1319023884' post='1408948']Wow, are you moving into driver design/manufacture itself? Impressive...[/quote] Yep, been working on that for a while now. Very excited about how the new stuff will perform!

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1319022286' post='1408917']Re the 8", is that based around the LA8? The higher-end 10" neo SICA drivers are also pretty good high-excursion units, I don't think I've found any 8" units that significantly outperform them on spec -certainly not neo...and they sound good, too.[/quote] No, nothing like either. A totally bespoke design using different technology resulting in vastly higher maximum output - you can't buy anything similar at the moment. [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1319022286' post='1408917']I don't see/hear a problem with subsonic filtering on any reflex design (not just small boxes)[/quote] Absolutely, it's a good thing on any ported speaker. The only time I hear a 'problem' with it is because the speaker system has a higher roll-off than I'd like and I'm noticing the lack of depth in the lows, but that's due to the enclosure design, not the subsonic filtering.

I haven't but there are a few clues in the specs. The relatively low power and lack of woofer specs suggest they aren't doing anything particularly special in the speaker department whilst the "dynamic control" on the power amp, the "subsonic filter", and the "low distortion limiter" imply that there's compression in the electronics to increase the average loudness (at the expense of transient attack) there's highpass filtering to remove content below the tuning frequency so they can tune the cab higher for more loudness without the woofer distorting (at the expense of deep lows), and that when the amp does run out of power there's a further limit circuit to stop distorted clipping sounds. Just as the RH450 sounds great to many players with its inherent processing whilst playing louder than its real power suggests it can, so too this combo can play louder than its size and power would suggest and do so whilst sounding good to many players. Of course there will be others that don't like the compromises this approach causes but nothing's perfect! We're working on a 8" at the moment which also won't be breaking any laws of physics but will be using a very high excursion design to move more air than most 12"s, although with lower sensitivity because of the reduced cone area and enclosure size so it takes more power to get there. That'll mean output and bottom to match many 2x10"s or 1x15"s. Now if you were to combine that woofer technology with this kind of electronic cunning you could potentially have an 8" cab that sounds as loud and fat to many ears as a decent 4x10" all without breaking the laws of physics...

Just use a 1/4"-XLR lead. DI outs are usually lower level so won't drive most power amps to full volume.

It's a beast isn't it?! I'm glad we've finally got this model into production because it's really special - there are other expensive 2x12" cabs out there but none have the combination of deep tuning, huge power handling, massive volume displacement, flat frequency response on and off-axis, which give the incredible tone and output. Few 4x12" cabs can play louder and only Acme Low-B cabs go lower (but you'd need twice as many to match the output). Live I'd never bother miking it - you'll get more coloration from most PA systems. Feel free to mess around in the studio! Both 12"s are lowpassed so sound the same. Mid driver takes over where their off-axis output starts to weaken and tweeter takes over where the mid rolls off. It's more articulate than any other bass cab I've heard - the detail it picks up with clean sounds is lovely but a bit too revealing if you're not in the zone! The Super Twelve plays as loud, sounds more like a bass cab and less like a monster hi-fi speaker, has less extension and weight in the lows, is a bit more efficient, and is smaller, lighter and cheaper - a better balance of design compromises for most players. The Big Twin is more for those that would like a Meyer Sound PA system for their bass but can't afford/carry one!

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1318695596' post='1405353']It was simply a matter of size (so the wife says)I would point out though that the Berg 1x12's definately change tone once my GB 600 is cranked up. More mid to top end. That suits what I'm looking for[/quote] That's caused by the increased harmonic distortion of the woofers going past their clean excursion limit (Xmax) with more than ~150W. The 2x12" would do the same (but not fit in your boot which would make for very quiet bass guitar on the gig!)

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1318609658' post='1404372']The volume drop is huge due to the cab size, where is Alex Claber to explain when you need him? [/quote] Here! Two 1x12"s will sound and perform identically to a 2x12" with the same woofers, tuning frequency and twice the internal volume as each 1x12", if all cabs are built to the same standards. If one of the designs has more internal airspace per woofer then it will have more bottom (like our Super Twelve vs our Midgets). If the port tuning is different then it gets more complicated! Differences in baffle layout (like diagonal vs vertical woofers) will affect how you hear the mids and highs.

Different magnet weight too and I suspect the XL's have more Xmax based on how they perform (play louder before distorting).

[quote name='TomKent' timestamp='1317036778' post='1385673'] Here's my rig from the day! Edit - The Barefaced cab isn't mine, it belongs to Alex (the man behind them). [/quote] Finally got out of that ****ing bass case, honestly, children! That was fun - sorry if I seemed a little frantic / confused / curiously lucky... As my band is on hiatus due to excessive Barefaced busyness (sic) I find myself drawn to monopolising the jam room on the one hand, whilst being aware that I should talk to people about the cabs. Hopefully I struck the right balance this year by keeping myself from playing drums badly! Was this the third one of these? They're starting to feel like school reunions for a school I wish I'd gone to (apart from the male:female ratio!) Fancy starting a Brighton-based two bass band Si?

Sounds like he's blown the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply.

~5dB. Although 10dB increase is twice the sound intensity it isn't always twice as loud because of our ears being so non-linear - at typical band volume and with bass guitar being skewed towards the lows an increase of 10dB can sound like quite a lot more than twice as loud. Note how the gap between the 80 and 100 phon curves is 20dB at 1kHz but down at 100Hz it's about 14dB. So when pushing an RS210 hard and then pushing two RS210s hard, the 5dB increase is going to sound more like 7dB. So you'll get more low-mids and lows because of the cabs coupling at low frequencies and gaining sensitivity, you'll hear more of the high-mids and treble because of your ears being closer to on-axis, and your ears will think there's been an even bigger increase in the lows because of their Fletcher-Munson curve.

Possibly none at all - depends on the excursion limited power handling of those woofers. Even if there is a difference it'll be pretty insignificant.