fatback

As far as I'm aware, nobody ever got laid for catching a fish.

Just bought a Squier VMJ fretless from Sam. A pleasure to deal with. Nice bass, well packed, arrived in perfect condition. Great comms all the way. Thanks mate

Oh happy day Nice one. Out of curiosity, where did you buy the neck?

I found markers helpful when I started. Also, the cheaper end fretlesses do tend to have them, as they're usually defretted (or unfretted?) versions of a standard bass. The advantage to me was that by using the markers as a reference, i could train my ear more easily. I could play blind and then check where my fingers really were. Other people might use a different tactic. If you use an unmarked board, get one where the side markers are where the frets would be, not between the fret positions. Or you can move the markers or get a luthier to do it. Plus of fretless? Control over the sound is way beyond anything you can do with fretted. It really is all in the fingers. Also, you have an infinite number of 'notes' to play with. Nobody says a half tone is the smallest interval you can have. One minus I never expected is that I ended up not much enjoying playing fretted anymore. I don't even own one now. They feel uncomfortable under the fingers and horribly clumsy. You can, anyway, make a fretless sound acceptably like a fretted for most applications, but not the other way around. Give it a go. You'll enjoy it ugely, and it'll vastly improve your ears and your fretted playing. imo, naturally.

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1057548' date='Dec 13 2010, 05:32 PM']A string I've found to be an absolute joy for pizz and arco are Kolstein Heritage strings. They have a lovely low tension and are closer in sound to gut strings than steel. And they also have excellent customer service. Check out www.gollihurmusic.com for prices and other options. I've had Kolstein's on both my upright and my Eminence portable upright and they work beautifully on both. Another string I'm loving for both arco and pizz, and currently have on my upright are Velvet Blue's.[/quote] Thanks Gareth. Those Kolstein's are a very reasonable price too.

I'm thinking a change of strings might be in order, esp. for getting into the arco thing I've finally identified the ones I've got - Pirastro Jazzers, and according to Lemur Music's rather useful string guide, they're 'not for arco', which might explain at least some of the more horrible noises I make with the bow. So, I'm looking for a string that's ok for pizz and arco. No slapping, and I have a weakness for a more singing kind of tone. The choice looks between: Pirastro Obligatos, Pirastro Dominants and Evah Pirazzi (assuming the last two bow ok). Any others I should be looking at? Also, for a learner, is there a disadvantage in going for weichs, as maybe too easy on the hands when you're trying to build up strength? Thanks for the help again.

[quote name='Clarky' post='1056215' date='Dec 12 2010, 05:12 PM']Sorry - to clarify on the sound I am after, it's as a backup to a DB and not in any way as a solo Pastorius/Jones type instrument. I couldn't even come within a million miles of their technical abilities! Think Boz Burrell in Bad Company I guess, ie, unobtrusive, unflashy and blending in with the song rather than "look at me"! From the answers (for which thanks, gents) so far it looks a clear vote for flats.[/quote] Definitely flats for what you're looking for. Me, I find Elixir coated the best compromise for fretless. They give a nice singing tone without the aggressiveness of proper rounds and don't tear up the (rosewood) fretboards at all. But i'm not looking for an upright tone.

[quote name='Mr Fudge' post='1055609' date='Dec 12 2010, 01:32 AM']I played the day after my vasectomy [/quote] I'll second this one. Eeeeh

[quote name='Clarky' post='1055342' date='Dec 11 2010, 07:59 PM']B5 got off lightly there, the poster in question called silddx a "w***er" in a post a couple of days ago in part prompting my thread on abuse[/quote] Ah.

Not bothered about vocal range meself. Her music has groove, it's sexy, the production is top class. Oh, and the bass is cool too. What's not to like? Maybe opinions depend on whether or not you ever had a great smooch to a Sade tune btw I don't think anyone should be called a clown on a forum like this.

[quote name='endorka' post='1053893' date='Dec 10 2010, 11:34 AM']Students have said this to me before, and I find it puzzling. Why is it thought necessary to stand to play jazz? Standing does not give any playing advantage when doing so. My main concern with the students who mentioned this was that they liked the "image" involved with standing to play jazz, rather than being focused on the practicalities of playing the instrument. I'm trying not to be pernickity/patronising about this, but it is something both myself and my bass tutor have come across, and neither of us can understand it :-) Jennifer[/quote] It's maybe like conductors having to have big hair. They just have to, don't they?

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1052832' date='Dec 9 2010, 02:50 PM']Well, all long as you're swearing F's you're intonation will be fine. (sorry, that's the best I could muster)[/quote]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1052527' date='Dec 9 2010, 10:50 AM']Yes and no to with a reference pitch. I think it's a given that you should practice with a reference - be it for pitch or timing. Consistently practicing without either of those present leads to a false sense of security, in my opinion. I know I've worked up some lines that I thought were spot on only to be shown that I was tripping up left and right once I put a metronome on or a reference pitch. Like had been said - you can learn to play in tune without a bow BUT you'll hear if you're out of tune instantly with the bow, whereas a plucked note can hide a multitude of sins. More so on upright than bass guitar, I believe that repetition is your friend. Get a fingering pattern for a major scale on one string, or across one position and just play it until you don't have to think where the next note is. I've also found naming each note to be very helpful - even on keys like C Major or F Major (with few or no accidentals) - it helps to build a reference to the note you're just played and the one you're about to play. It's very easy to get lost on that fingerboard. And it's sure helping me through C# Major, etc. Visualising each note and the ones around it also helps me a lot - picturing what notes lie under each finger on each string. I think on another post you mentioned feeling like this might make you feel confined to playing only in that position or not having a full octave available in one position. Well, sometimes that's just the way it is. I know I'm a long way off being able to play mu upright with the same fluidity as my electric. In this regard the two instruments are only similar in name - they're both bass, sure, but that doesn't mean you should expect to play on one like you do on the other.[/quote] I can see what you're saying there alright. I already sing the names of the notes as I play them, if there's time, and that's definitely helping me. Also, on this visualising business, practicing last night, I found myself consciously trying to visualise the overlaps of adjacent positions, and it seemed to be making some sense. I can see I think how learning by positions could force a separation in the mind between the note and the patterns, and that would be a big plus. I am cheating a bit though, by doing the position exercises and then playing afterwards ignoring positions and thinking in my old scalar way. Or is that some kind of moral hazard ? Hugely enjoying the daily frustrations, though. My other half even claims not to mind the constant stream of swearing she hears from the practice room, as it's probably therapeutic in all kinds of subtle ways . I'm waiting for someone here to remind me to check I'm swearing in tune.

[quote name='Count Bassie' post='1052568' date='Dec 9 2010, 11:28 AM']Here's the logical end to most of these discussions! No surprise this thread's gone on for 5 pages, it's one of those classic, eternal 'arguments'; but it's fun to get one started! Good to get a new look though at the scope of players and points of view... for me, after several weeks of having come back to a J with LaBella flats, I'm totally at home. If I have another Precision, it'll be after I get settled in with my regular 'quiver'. I'm still refinishing a Hamer mod, and found an old Yamaha BB400- a "P-Bass" really, which is very much a P-Bass... so shut my mouth, I guess! It's actually a really nice plank, a low-priced Japanese entry-level bass from around '81 or so. Doesn't sound like your standard Precision though. But I found it for $80 US, so it's in rotation as a BEAD bass while I finish up the nitro on the Hamer (another thread)...[/quote] Can't let this pass, being a big fan of the old BBs. Relevant to this thread, too, as I think it may prove that it's not the neck width that makes some people unhappy with the P, but the radius. I find my BB400 flatter than the P's I've played, and that may account for how comfortable it is. And you get the benefit of wide-ish string spacing. The impression I get about Fender Ps is that they vary a lot in profile, rather than width, and that may account for people's differing feelings about them. You will love that BB

[quote name='MOSCOWBASS' post='1052053' date='Dec 8 2010, 08:00 PM']You should look here and talk to Alex before you decide which speaker to buy. I've been through quite a few "high end" cabs over the years, but have found the Midget T to be very good. Currently thinking about adding a Compact and selling my Epi 4x10. [url="http://barefacedbass.com/product-range.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/product-range.htm[/url] Read the info on the site, I was quite sceptical, but the Midget T does what it says on the tin. Iain H[/quote] +1 I use a Midget (without the Tweeter) for just that kind of music , and I can second that. I back off a little mid and add a little low and it's warm and full (and of course, light). Or maybe you might think of a Compact. Do chat with Alex. EDIT - and I've never had it sound muddy, no matter where or what settings. Always tight and controlled.

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='920598' date='Aug 10 2010, 12:03 PM']The man's just fantastic. He even played on Scott Walker's [i]Tilt[/i], which is one of my favourite albums of all time... although it's almost nobody's cup of tea. [/quote] My cup of tea Oh yes.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1052182' date='Dec 8 2010, 10:12 PM']This is an interesting little read about the Real Book [url="http://theaporetic.com/?p=1094"]http://theaporetic.com/?p=1094[/url][/quote] Hugely interesting/ Thanks.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1051774' date='Dec 8 2010, 03:19 PM']I just worry sometimes that people (noone in particular) are always looking for shortcuts when the best way of learninig to do something is the tried and teste method of long, drawn out repetition of small details that, over time come together to deliver a level of competence that is of more use that a bag of tricks that are not really that transferable.[/quote] I agree wholeheartedly. I'm determined to do this properly. But here's an example of how one tactic worked for me better than another, and I only reached it by trying to think it through: I was determined to use the DB as a means of learning to sight read, something I hadn't done since I was a kid playing the trumpet (and I was rubbish at it then). But, i reckoned that trying to read, use right hand, use left hand and get callouses all at the same time was a bit much. So I broke it down and started with only the right hand and learning to read only rhythms, ignoring all but open strings. As it happens, Rufus Reid's book starts out this way, so i started with that book and ignored other books at first. Result: a huge breakthrough for me and a big boost in confidence at an early stage. With a big scary (to me) obstacle out of the way, I was then able to move on. Other people mightn't have faced the same obstacle at all. The point I'm making is that I might have just started the traditional way with Simandl, as I guess I was expected to do. If I had, I think I'd be struggling by now. In that case it paid to ask questions and be flexible. It's possible to go down the wrong road altogether, of course, especially without a teacher (geographical probs), but that's why I keep asking dumb questions here. It's amazingly helpful to hear what experienced players and fellow beginners have to say. Can't imagine taking on this beast without.

Very helpful answers as always, thanks all. Although Bilbo has me marked down as a troublemaker Seems the moral of the learning by positions story is, eventually the different ways of thinking will join up. I can accept that, coming from wiser heads And I accept what you say, Bilbo, about a certain amount of trust being a good thing. However, I've always found it pays off not to accept the usual way of doing things without question. I've taught a lot over my careers and at every level, and one thing I know for sure is that individuals differ enormously in the mental structures they have, and so in the ways they need to approach subjects. One size rarely fits all. It's also a good teaching principle to map out for the student where things are headed and why. I'm no different from anybody else in needing this. Which, of course, is where a wonderful place like this helps so much. btw, I did get the Tarlton book on your recommendation Bilbo; thanks for that. See, I do pay attention

[quote name='marvin spangles' post='1051235' date='Dec 8 2010, 02:05 AM']One of the fundamental problems inherent in playing the double bass is the ability to play in tune. Developing an accurate muscular memory is essential. Going to a teacher (at the age of 50) and doing some classical stuff really helped me big time with my intonation. I am sorry I didn't do it years ago. You talk about guess work. The whole issue is really to take guess work out of it. eg Try playing a two octave scale on one string. If you have to gliss to the correct pitch then you have learnt nothing. Be very critical . Do it slow until you can play it in tune without adjusting.[/quote] Seems to me though, from all the answers above, that the traditional advice to 'learn bowing because it helps your intonation' should really say 'learn bowing [i]with a reference[/i] because it helps your intonation. The idea of using the bow with in-tune recordings or a sequencer really does answer my question. You have to have feedback to learn. That's what I'll do, then.

I see that 90% of the books on playing upright do it by positions, so there must be a good reason. But what is it? How do you integrate that with thinking in keys, chords and scales? On bass guitar i think first of keys, chords and related scales and modes. I don't care where they are on the neck. And I don't have to know the name of every note on the neck instantly (although i do, if you give me a sec to think about it). So why am I learning a couple of keys in all these positions, when without changing position I can't even get past an octave? And if i want to play chords in that key I end up thinking in modes anyway, and I still need to shift. Is it so if I see something in Fmaj I go, ok proceed to 1st position? Surely not. On guitar I'd choose the position in which to play a particular chord or scale on the basis of where else I needed to shift to, ie do I use my pinkie on the root or my middle finger etc. I'm wondering (now I get the tin hat on again) whether the position way of learning isn't best suited to reading written lines rather than improvising over chords. Do tell me I'm wrong. Thanks for bearing with me again I just find it easier to do stuff when I know why I'm supposed to do it that way. Once I know, I'm very tame, I assure you.

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1050923' date='Dec 7 2010, 07:30 PM']I've found the markers to be a life saver on some gigs - particularly those ones where the sound is too loud/gawd-awful or just plain mud. If I can put my finger on one note and know for sure, without hearing it, that I'm in tune, then that goes a long way to getting back on course. I'm talking about the really horrible gigs in the extreme, but they do happen to nice gigs too. I played in a beautiful church in Koln, Germany this year - for the voices and acoustic guitar it was pretty - for me, it was a sea if in-distinction. To add to what Jennifer has suggested - one thing I've found useful is to get a drumbeat and a keyboard/guitar loop going on Garageband, or something similar - and play along with that. Even if the harmony instrument is playing something interesting/boring/funky, as long as it's in one key I just practice scales and arpeggios against it, moving between the major and relative minor. Another benefit is that, coming from the bass guitar world, I find playing along with a drum machine/metronome to be quite valuable as there are physical timing difference between the two instruments - both in the muscle speed/dexterity it takes to produce a note from your fingers and also the time it takes for the instrument to produce it. In other words - those funky 16th lines that come so easily on a fretted bass guitar are a lot harder to play and hear on an upright and they also require a different way of playing.[/quote] Good advice, I'll get something going on Cubase. As it is, i always practice with a metronome, even on BG, so I should be alright on that front, but it'd be fun to play along to something in a noodly kind of way Even arpeggios

Thanks Jennifer, that is seriously useful. I'll give some of those techniques a shot. Gareth, I'm with you on the markers. Especially since I can't stand still when I'm playing I might even add a couple on the G and B.

[quote name='dincz' post='1050713' date='Dec 7 2010, 04:42 PM']It's sounding more and more as if ear training is what's needed.[/quote] Well, I don't have problems with the fretless bg, but as Endorka says (and I didn't know this) the note is much clearer on bg. So i take the point. I'm finding the tuner is very helpful as a confirmation of what my ear is telling me. I'm not saying I watch it all the time. I'll certainly get around to the bow, whenever I can get hold of a teacher, but I'm glad I didn't start with it straight away. I guess I'm trying not to confuse myself with too many things at the same time. So far, having been able to get only one lesson, I've sorted out a kind of syllabus for myself, and it seems to be working ok. I've found it effective to start with only the right hand and open strings, using Rufus Reid's book. That got me reading rhythms fluently without worrying too much about the notes (my weakness reading was always rhythm). That got me some good callouses too. I used Friedland's video for right hand technique. Then I moved to Micheal Moore's book to get the scales, arpeggios etc going. I use some Aebersold for this too. Ray Brown's book and Simandl next. Last question: Gareth says he uses a marking on the A. So do I, but there's a feeling of cheating about it that I don't feel about side markers on bass guitar. Is there any downside to doing that? Is it just a macho thing not to use them? For that matter, why don't uprights have side markers? So many Qs

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050586' date='Dec 7 2010, 02:48 PM']I can't get my head round that and I'm not being awkward, but can you give some actual examples of copyright owners preventing other people using their works ? I am really interested to know about this, because I thought anyone could use other people's music. as long as the royalties were fairly distributed.[/quote] Here's a very straightforward explanation. Applies to the UK as well as Ireland. [url="http://www.cai.ie/faq/index.htm"]http://www.cai.ie/faq/index.htm[/url]