flyfisher

What? just as we're on the brink of earning some dosh? Seriously though, the organiser is one of the students and he knows us and has seen us many times, so he knows what he's letting himself in for as far as we're concerned. It's just that I'm a bit concerned that our stuff might not go down too well at a semi formal event for students. I guess there's only one way to find out. But it's far from a done deal as yet. I'll let you know if it doesn't happen for us

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1409245176' post='2537945'] I don't believe the vast majority of free bands are that competitive anyway... so the gigs they would get, no one really wants [/quote] I suspect you're right about that. I certainly can't see anyone wanting to pay my lot four figures for a wedding or corporate gig - we don't have a big enough repertoire for a start and we're definitely not 'professional' enough. Having said that, we have done two weddings for friends who specifically asked us because they liked the stuff we do play, so go figure. We've even been asked about playing at a Christmas ball in one of the Cambridge colleges this year, which is something I'm a bit wary of because I worry we won't be good enough, but they are being pretty serious and are offering money, so who knows? Perhaps there really is room out there for all bands, at all levels and for all 'deals'? What I do find interesting is that it's the bands making money from playing that are doing all the moaning. I've not seen any play-for-free bands carping on about how other bands [u]shouldn't[/u] charge for playing. Live and let live?

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1409236764' post='2537831'] But how would you feel if someone was offering to do your job for free, or as per this thread, your boss asked someone to pay to do it just for experience - and they agreed ? [/quote] Isn't that exactly what has been happening with loads of manufacturing jobs in British industry, with them being moved to other countries where labour costs are so much cheaper, indeed almost 'free' in comparison to UK wages? I'd bet you've bought stuff made by this 'cheap labour' at sometime, just like we all have. Again, I could turn the question around and ask why anyone would choose to try to scrape a living by charging for something that many people will do for free. Unless you believe you have some inherent right to earn a living by playing music then you just have to accept the big melting pot that is the market economy we live in. You don't have to like it, but you're not going to be able to change it.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1409219380' post='2537563'] I have to say that I absolutely respect any artist who refuses to rely on their old hits. Any fan of Kate Bush knows that her approach to her art is based on a very personal concept of integrity and is not led by the idea of 'giving the people what they want'. Jazz artist who continually regurgitate their old hits are given pretty short shrift and playing the solos 'as on the record' woudl see them laughed out of a theatre. I believe you should expect what the artist is prepared to give. If you want the hits, play the cd. [/quote] I get all that, but unless an artist only performs new material all the time they are bound to be relying on their old stuff to a large extent, in which case why not play the hits that their fans like rather than the stuff that wasn't a hit, presumably because fewer people liked it? But yes, I basically agree that the artist is 'inviting' people to come along to 'their' concert and that it's not (necessarily) a request show.

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1409227463' post='2537710'] but you wouldnt open up a shop and give it away for free would you? [/quote] Indeed not, because that's not my hobby. It's the hobby/enjoyment aspect of music that makes this whole thing a big debate because people clearly ARE prepared to earn a living some other way and then play music for free out of pure enjoyment. Seems to me that the (perfectly reasonable) desire of some musicians to only play if they are paid actually takes the shine off some of the sheer enjoyment of playing music just for the sake of it.

[quote name='paulears' timestamp='1409169189' post='2537121'] Oldies but goodies! I've been a fan of Judie Tzuke since around the same time, and always go to the shows when she tours, and it's become a very personal thing between her and the fans - she pops up and asks for suggestions for new venues, and people suggest them, and they happen - she's been doing a song club for ages where we cough up for the CD price, and then she sends them out as downloads as they are recorded which is a great idea. Long live the oldies! [/quote] Not a big fan of hers but what a great way of engaging with the fans. Total respect for that!

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1409119722' post='2536399'] Would loved to have been there. Just have to hope for a DVD at some point. [/quote] + 1/2 I'm increasingly finding that I can't be arsed with these overblown, overpriced, comeback extravaganzas but I do enjoy watching the resulting DVDs. Cream, Led Zeppelin and even stuff like the Clapton 'Crossroads' DVDs have all been well worth the tenner or so to buy them and watch I the comfort of home. Yes I know 'it's not the same' as being there, but I reckon I've been to enough live concerts by now so it has to be something really special or really convenient. Sad, maybe, but true.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1409080625' post='2536172'] Yes, they can be done. Mind you, there's a difference between Mr Neville Staples' road-honed combo and four bands comprising a total of four drummers (each of whom takes an hour to set up his kit) and 12 other numpties all getting in the way and yelling 'Oh, get a move on Bob, FFS!' [/quote] Yep, I'd heard those rumours but it was the first time I'd ever witnessed it. It was like pulling oneself up to peer over a high wall at the promised land, but not being able to hold on for too long before slipping back down into the mild chaos of hobby bands. Ah well, better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all - to paraphrase a well know adage.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1409125106' post='2536448'] This thread means nothing without extensive coverage taken using a mobile phone held at a silly angle for 45 minutes. [/quote] I read that she had specifically asked people not to do this at her gigs. I wonder if they complied. I've been reading good reviews of her opening night so it seems she hasn't lost it. Good for her.

Does anyone type in precise domain names these days. Wouldn't they just type in '60s explosion' or 'sixties explosion' and rely on Google to provide the exact link? I thought this was why SEO was so important these days. I can't remember the last time I typed in an entire domain name exactly.

Sounds like it was a good learning exercise, and a technically successful one as well, so congratulations. Shame the weather couldn't have been as well organised.

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1409073135' post='2536059'] Still, mustn't grumble, eh. [/quote] Good man. That's the spirit!

I used to be sympathetic to the 'changeover time' and sound check argument and I have lent my gear to other bassists on the same bill with no problems. But we supported Neville Staple once (ex specials) and they stipulated a clear stage so after we had finished we cleared all our gear away quickly. Neville & his band had their own sound guy and I reckon that within 15 minutes they had everything set up and started playing their first song with no sound check and it was all good. I guess their sound guy did everything on the fly, but whatever he did, he did a good job. So fast changeovers can be done and is not really a good excuse for sharing loads of gear.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409072486' post='2536047'] Or tell him you have some "bass amp loan tickets", you post 25 of them to him 3 days before the gig for him to sell to friends and family for £5 each on the understanding he pays you £5 for each one he ruturns to you unsold when you get there but he can keep £1 from each one he sells [/quote]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1409056939' post='2535844'] Many bands play for free or pay to play as a potential investment for their future. [/quote] I wonder what 'the future' means for BCers here who play in bands (or even if they don't at the moment)? What do people see as their future in the world of music and how much planning do people really put into it all? I've laid my cards on the table as a pure hobbyist band member with no aspirations of making any money out of my playing, never mind earning a comfortable ( or uncomfortable! ) living out of it. My motivation is simply playing for the sheer pleasure of it. What other motivations are out there?

[quote name='Marc S' timestamp='1409067914' post='2535982'] EDIT: I know several local musicians / small bands who are trying to play original music mostly, and they are struggling to make ends meet Of course, if original music is the way you want to earn a living, it's hard - there are times when you have little or no income You need a big savings pot beforehand.... [/quote] Reminds me of the old joke . . . . How can you make a small fortune out of music? Start out with a large one.

Agreed. I'd want to be paid for that sort of work as well - and probably a lot more than the going rate!

Protectionism means you end up paying more for everything, so you'd probably end up being worse off even if you can double your band fees. Some 'bands for free' might be doing it for some bigger picture and a loss-leader on their way to multi-million pound stardom, but not me. I can think of little worse than being dragged from anonymous hotel room to anonymous hotel room to play the same songs night after night. Might be alright when you get to being a Rolling Stone and can call the shots but otherwise it's not something I would choose. No wonder so many 'stars' end up doing drugs and the like - the boredom must be pretty intense. But each to their own.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408989409' post='2535298'] Our rule for mates is that they get 'mates rates' and we have a minimum charge which is double our pub fee. The band member whose mate it is, may well pass on his fee. It is just like a day at work to me..I might enjoy it but I want to be paid. Arriving at a certain time, setting up and carrying the P.A also qualifies me to be paid more than than the others who don't do this. It is all a service for which there is a charge. I guess I don't love doing it as much as I thought. But I'll console myself with the fact that any duff gigs will still pay me. [/quote] That makes your position a lot clearer . . . and all power to you in those choices. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1408989409' post='2535298'] So, no, not sure I like bands working for free. I can't stop them, of course, but I'll tease them that they couldn't get p**** in a brewery [/quote] Well, if we're going to start teasing each other, how come bands playing for a few hundred quid a night in grotty pubs are not good enough to be playing 5000 seat venues with £50 tickets, or even larger venues, or how come they don't have recording contracts with major labels, or how come they're not on the telly every week . . . . . . As I've said - there's room for all.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408991088' post='2535311'] Most hobbies don't involve competing for the same work as pro/semi pros though. That's what I meant earlier when I said that things change once you put yourself in public. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing for pure enjoyment, but when you take it outside the garage you are entering in to the business side of it, and that side involves money. [/quote] Fair point, but I could equally turn it around and suggest that most jobs don't involve in competing with hobbies. But that's the choice that pro/semi pro musicians make, which is fair enough but not to the extent of imposing their preferences on others [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408991088' post='2535311'] Think about it this way.....How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for far less money which, in turn, means that your income is potentially affected? [/quote] I guess I'd have to look for another job in order to maintain my income - which happens all the time doesn't it? Do you wear £400 shoes to help save UK handmade shoe manufacturing or do you wear cheaper imports from the far east? Bespoke suits or off-the-peg from a foreign factory using cheaper labour? And a million other examples . . . . Edit - Dad beat me to it

That's a perfectly fine point of view, but can you really not accept that there are others? And while we're on the subject of [i] "sometimes when reading a thread you have to stop yourself from commenting... but this makes me boil enough to comment...[/i]" what gives you any right to start dictating the choices other people should make? I'm not suggesting you should change your views and start paying to play or playing for free am I? So why start telling me, and others, how to play their music?

[quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408986476' post='2535269'] I do get this, but we all aspire to be better than others and to get better individually too, don't we? Even if it's a hobby, it would be good to be appreciated. Most of the clients we work with try to save money - that's business, but some just push too far. Some are kind and provide food and even some drinks. Others charge you for water, make you change in a toilet, and make you park the van miles away. The idea of playing in a venue that are taking advantage is what gets me. Play for free for fun but doesn't watching the owner stick cash into the till make you cross? [/quote] Does it make you cross when you go to a pub with no music and watch the LL stick your cash in the till? Or when you go to the cinema? Or play a round of golf? Yesterday, our band spent a very pleasant Sunday afternoon playing for about an hour and the rest of the afternoon watching other musicians. No one had to pay to get in and listen and we didn't have to spend any money on drinks. If I hadn't been playing the chances are that I'd have gone along anyway and had to pay for my own drinks. That seems like a pretty mild form of 'taking advantage' to me, so I guess the answer to your question is 'no'. One advantage of playing for free is that if the venue is crap, and the load in/out is terrible, and the chances of a fight is high, then we don't feel obliged to play there just to make a bit of cash. Likewise, we've played a couple of weddings for friends who have specifically asked for us to play because they'd seen us before, so we were happy for that to be our present to them and there was none of the risk and hassle that seems to be associated with so many wedding functions described elsewhere on BC. I get that you won't play without being paid, and that's absolutely fine by me. There's room for all isn't there?

[quote name='paulears' timestamp='1408983913' post='2535221'] I like the musicians union stance on charity work. You get paid the same as if it was a normal gig. when you get the money, you can, if you wish, give it to charity - and many do. The point, however, is that you get paid for working. Working for free, and bringing your mates along is just you lining somebody else's pockets - who's making the money? Not the musicians. It devalues what we do. Doing a gig at a posh venue and being charged for food really gets me too - especially when they charge the band the same as the public. [/quote] If you consider playing in a band as 'work' then I can understand your position. Nobody likes to 'work' for nothing. But what if you don't consider playing in a band as 'work'. What if it is just another form of recreation? Who gets paid for their hobbies? When you go out for a night on the town with your mates, do you expect someone to pay you to enjoy yourself? [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1408982463' post='2535199'] Some people make love for free. Some get paid for it. Each will choose his/her own camp. [/quote]

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1408964050' post='2534911'] I wasn't there so I don't know, but a good guess is that drunk fighty man had wound her up with "If we don't get our f###in money back me and the boy's 'll job them" or whatever your choice of vernacular is, so she was between a rock and a hard place. And probably drunk too. Everyone loves a wedding! [/quote] That would be my guess too. Glad to hear that everyone was safe and sound but what a depressing tale. I wonder how they would have reacted if the band had refused to hand back the money and called the police instead, for the reasons Chaypup mentioned above? Easy to say in hindsight though - must have been a dreadful experience at the time and I'd have probably gone for self-preservation as well.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408971036' post='2535020'] I would have thought that quite a lot of people want to be plumbers. [/quote] Perhaps, but only as a way of making money. Do you know any plumbers who love their work so much that they're happy to do it for nothing? [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1408971036' post='2535020'] I don't buy your first point. If you want to just play for the fun of it, you can do that in a rehearsal room/garage.If you want people to watch you, invite them there or put on your own private event, but things change when you take your band out in to the public domain. [/quote] You're pre-judging the fun that people get from playing music. Some DO just play in a rehearsal room/garage, which is fine, but others do enjoy playing to an audience, which I'm sure you can understand. But given the choice of going to all the trouble of putting on your own private event or playing an existing venue for free, why not take the easy choice of playing for free? Why do things change when you take your band out into the public domain? Music is a broad spectrum isn't it? Bedroom players at one end and 100,000 seat stadium world tours at the other end. Even among 'pro' players there will be a huge range of earnings and talent. There's room for all isn't there?