flyfisher

[quote name='Subbeh' timestamp='1396835157' post='2417830'] Of course good will and charity have their place but the ad in the OP is clearly[b] relying on someone else's talent given freely[/b] in order to make more money for someone who almost certainly isn't in need or passing the goodwill around. [/quote] Hmm. 'relying' or simply offering an opportunity for promotion? Depends on your perspective I guess.

So you'd prefer to pay more for your goods as well as your parking and carry your accumulating shopping as you walk from shop to shop? People are not forced to use supermarkets are they? So why do they?

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396817948' post='2417722'] Not everything. I'd quite like to know how you expect a professional musician to pay the rent and bills? Because from what you've said, essentially everyone should play for free because it's not about the money... Or are you saying that being a musician isn't a career worth paying for and that's why we should all he happy and not bother with playing for money? [/quote] Not at all. I'm not, and never have, advocated that everyone should play for free, or indeed anyone if they don't wish to. Why would I, it's none of my business. What I am suggesting is that people shouldn't be castigated if they are happy to play for free or accused of spoiling things for those who feel the need to be paid just to get out of bed in the morning. My comment about how depressing I was finding the way the discussion was going was prompted by skidders reply to my question about whether I did a bad thing by helping out a neighbour . . . . [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1396815657' post='2417681'] If your neighbour could afford to pay someone, then I would say you did do a bad thing. [/quote] If we follow that example, we should be asking anyone in apparent need of some help whether they can afford to pay or not because if they can pay someone else then it's a bad thing to help them out of the goodness of our hearts. Perhaps it's just me, but I find that outlook on things somewhat depressing.

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1396814955' post='2417670'] How prophetic is "Big Yellow taxi"?? I live in the green belt and the countryside is disappearing on a daily basis - along with the "parking lot" we're seeing out of town Shopping Malls which are stealing trade from our local town centres forcing small businesses out of business. [/quote] Sorry, but it's not "shopping malls that steal trade from local town centres forcing small businesses out of business" it's the people who stop using local town centres in favour of the shopping malls. So the real question is why do people prefer to shop elsewhere when given a choice?

This is getting really depressing now. So everything is about money now is it?

[quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1396811631' post='2417615'] The difference here is that your neighbour isn't running a business that requires the services of gardners or builders.... [/quote] Running a business is irrelevant - my neighbour would have paid a gardener or builder though if I didn't help him out, so someone lost out financially because of my willingness to do the work for free. Did I do a bad thing?

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1396808885' post='2417585'] [media]http://youtu.be/7agB7jriyUU[/media] [/quote] I recognise that left hand technique . . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMlhWvIh7U4

Next time I help my elderly neighbour by mowing his lawn or fixing his guttering, I'll be sure to charge him the going rate and donate the proceeds to the local care home for retired gardners & builders, who I'm putting out of business.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1396778246' post='2417137'] I think you need to start billing at £10 per hour for gigs from a min of £50. ( assuming a pub gig is 5 hours on the job but only about 3 hrs working it including set-up and break down ) No idea what bar staff get paid but ours is a more skilled job. You are doing well if you can get £25ph..assuming that you'll get there earlier and away later but we don't actually play any longer. Looking at it like this... I think the best we will this year do is £60 ph... [/quote] So, if things changed and gigs were no longer available, would you give up playing?

Exactly right. Everything is negotiable, but not every negotiation will end with a deal. There is no compulsion.

I meant charity in the informal sense of giving freely for no reward, just the pleasure of giving. Money changes everything and not always for the better.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1396613418' post='2415683'] Thanks again guys. Well, as you were saying in the 'Last Gig' thread, one door shuts and another opens. Just found out I'll be playing every day at Glastonbury, and got three dates in Brazil before that, I get a proper fee too. Funny old world init [/quote] Result! Really pleased for you, fantastic news and well deserved I have no doubt! That's really put a smile on my face

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396618870' post='2415744'] I couldn't agree more. As someone who would class themselves in the 'musician for a job' category, I always feel that if I can't offer something extra (professionalism, quality of musicianship, standard of playing etc) over the guys who go out and gig for free, then I don't deserve to be making money or to call myself a 'working' musician. The main thing that separates all of us as bassists is practice. I practice as much in a day as some of the local guys who play for free do in a month (maybe longer). That develops skills (reading for example) that ensures I get jobs that pay and if they choose not to develop those skills because they are happy with gigging for free, open mic nights or bedroom playing etc, that's cool too. Like you say, people practice enough to get to a standard they are happy with and to enjoy the pleasure/opportunities that brings. That's what it's all about :-) [/quote] Hmm. You seem to assume that people who play for money are more proficient than those who play purely for pleasure. I seriously doubt that's always the case.

Yes, for me too. What happened?

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1396630979' post='2415918'] Sure if it suits you to play for free, do it, but don't forget you have just set a market price for your services. [/quote] What's that old saying about knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing? Is charity really dead these days?

Interesting article, though I'd say it got one thing badly wrong - the bit about everything being available for a fee. In the 1980s I did a lot of work for British Telecom Research Labs helping to develop and enhance their 'Prestel' information service. This was a system whereby people could access pages of information via their telephone line and a TV set equipped with teletext. The basic idea was to provide richer content than the free teletext service(ceefax/oracle) that people would be prepared to pay for. My involvement was the development of something called 'photovideotex' which added the capability to display colour photographs as well as basic text. Because the technology at the time was 8-bit micros and 9600 baud modems, image data compression was paramount and the work eventually led to the jpeg standard (the jpeg chairman at the time worked for BT labs). I mention all this to show that such ideas and implementations were well advanced by the 1980s but it was all on a commercial basis with everything to be eventually funded by people paying for each page of information they accessed, from fractions of a penny to (perhaps) pounds per page depending on the value, and this is the prevailing view expressed in that prediction article. But, all that changed in the early 1990s when the World Wide Web took off and stripped commercial organisations, such as BT, of pretty much all control over content. organisations quickly learned that they couldn't actually 'own' content any more and sell it for whatever they wanted. By democratising the power of the web, people all over the work were able to contribute their own content, and far quicker than any organisation could. A classic example is Encyclopedia Britannica - a once dominant and respected source of information was superseded, almost overnight, by its contributors being able to share their knowledge directly with no need for a middleman to broker their contribution. Thus, overnight, EB disappeared and wikipedia became the 'go to' source of general knowledge across the world. There is not a company or government) on the planet that could have achieved that. So yes, that article was correct about music, and other information, being available via "household information centers" (PCs) "plugged into libraries of information" (the web), but it was wrong about having to pay for the vast majority of available content - much to the chagrin of the business world that has sought ways to make money from the web ever since it began. Of course, there are some subscription services out there, but they pale into insignificance compared to the amount of freely available information, music and video available on the web. THAT, I'd say, is the real triumph of the world wide web - and long may it last.

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1396610345' post='2415631'] A ridiculous comparison at the end, but going back to your main point.... [/quote] I'd like to think it was a ridiculous comparison, but comments like this . . . . [quote name='Telebass' timestamp='1396595487' post='2415413'] Well, I'm no ego-driven soul, but even so, the gig's the thing. Quite apart from putting food on the table, there's no point in playing if you don't gig. [/quote] . . . were why I made it. It seems to me that the world of musicianship is divided into those who play music for the sheer love of it and those who play music as a job for the money. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it would go some way to explain the polarised views being expressed and the generally demeaning tone when mentioning 'bedroom bassists' or people who are happy to gig for no financial reward. Surely music is a gift that can be rewarding in so many ways?

I can't see the problem - well, I can, but I don't know why people get all uptight about it. It's a simple request and you're either interested or you're. What would you prefer - a law stating that no musician can play for free if they wish to?

Hmm. Bit disappointed with the lack of tolerance being expressed regarding gigging being the only point of playing music. I can understand why some people live for it but why be so condescending to those who have no desire to gig? I'm sure plenty of people derive loads of pleasure by playing just for their own challenge and enjoyment. What next - no point in reading a book unless it's done out loud in front of an audience?

For me, the buzz is playing live with other musicians. If that happens to be at a gig, fine, but it's not what I live for.

Talking of murdering a song, it reminded me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7pDNDuoJ0

I'd agree with that, except the OP said it had happened with 'a few bands', which I take to mean at least three. That sounds a bit odd to me, especially if none of the bands know each other.

[quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1396042824' post='2409480'] With all this corruption , isn't there a way that people could boycott this system , and just not go? Maybe the gvt could close these websites down.?!? [/quote] Of course there is. not going to such gigs is the easiest thing in the world, in fact I'd guess that 99.9999% of the population DO boycott these gigs. Thing is, there is still a tiny proportion of people who ARE prepared to pay outrageous prices and put up with all the associated crap, so it goes on. But that's OK isn't it? Boycotting a gig is one thing but encouraging, or worse, forcing, people to do the same is quite another. Do we really want governments to control music gigs?

That's the spirit! Presumably Vic has a similar feeling inside that drove him to invite you in the first place, so you may be pushing against an open door. Let's hope so! It's great that you're going for it and I really hope it works out well.

[quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1396040845' post='2409450'] Get Me In is just a tout site owned by Ticketmaster.There was a channel 4 documentary about the industry a couple of years ago. Get Me In staff buy loads of tickets on many different credit cards owned by the company and then list them at hugely inflated prices. [/quote] How do they get around the ID requirements when selling on the tickets at the inflated prices? That's the bit I don't understand.