SamIAm

Not negative at all ... valuable observations. Nice table, I've been working one up myself based on the strings I got ... but the empirical measurements I'm getting are probably quite inaccurate. Anyway ... The "head" bracket does distort under load (and I don't think I was anywhere near tunings). Unloaded Loaded I meticulously disassembled one(OK ... hacked it apart) and was delighted to discover that the grub screws are M4. A quick dive into my box of maker parts later and ... I need to tweak my tuning knobs to capture the nut but let the bolt head be free. I feel this will produce a better solution. Remains to be seen if the hex grub screw can retain the string (with the bolt I can easily drill a small countersink in the side so that it is not reliant simply on friction) I'm picturing a jury rigged setup with a known mass (bunch of tinned goods) being used to stress test the coupling. The brass fittings have a non uniform cross section, so I can print an enclosure to prevent them turning when the tuning knob is rotated. And I expect I can figure out a comparable mounting system for the head end mount; possibly even drilling all the way through one of the two grub holes to allow a through screw into the neck. I do have a handheld Dremel whcih is very handy, but drilling nicely aligned holes (And making nice cuts out of perspex which I tried in project Trampa) is a stretch target. I've had an 'additive' maker machine (3D printer) for some time and it is brilliant for this and that. I was giving some thought to printing a small drill press for the Dremel, but GAS hit me and so please welcome a wee 'subtractive' maker machine. Xena (She screams and cuts) I'm interested to see what I can achieve with her. S'manth x

An electric bass ... apropos that a potentially useful component comes from the world of electrics ... S'manth x

Very interesting! I'm not sure how one would approach the second idea, but the first one looks deeply cool! With a double ball end string one could use simple off the shelf end mounts. I'm not totally sure on the maths front but intuitively (based on the principles we apply when setting up double anchor systems for rock climbing) it looks like a pulley leverage mechanical advantage would apply. I'd guess that the movement made by the tuning screw would be halved as would the load it experiences. Brilliant! S' manth x

Almost forgot, I got a set of pulleys, but they are way to small (about the same diameter as a post on a set of tuning heads). The G2 string might just bend enough but the diameter of a loop I could put in the B0 before feeling it might start to distort was more like 60mm ... more thought required. S'manth x

The angle brackets (and other bits) arrived and so an initial assembly. Key takeaways at this point ... It's as ugly as sin! but it's cheap as chips. The tuning heads rotate easily, but the head of the bolt they pull on does as well. In the interim a spot of superglue would sort it. The string pull brackets turn and twist along the string axis. The string pull brackets are not square along an axis that a fret would take, due to the ball-end being fixed off-axis to the tuning thread. I'm pretty certain 3D printing a supportive enclosure or total replacement for the string holder would address these. I might try printing a unit to replace the ball-end mounting bracket, I'm just not sure that 3D printed parts will be strong or stable enough to hold tuning under load ... I've read Nylon is one of the stronger materials nd I have some so may give it a go. Not sure what will happen under load (The strings are just being held by hand in the photo). I need to figure out how to cobble something together at the head end. But ... I've got a pickup I can use, I bought some fret wire so can print up a saddle along the lines that @Andyjr1515 suggested and create a zero fret as well ... just need to figure out how to "shape" the wood (Literally a PAR 2x4) in the region of the end of the "fret board"/pup/saddle (suggestions/advice very welcome) and I think (if the system can cope with the tensions) I could get something that will make some noise. Fortuitously, with the mounts spread across the whole board, the string spacing is about 18mm. I bought a really cheap (£5) set of strings (5 bass) so am not really expecting much, but I'm learning loads! What fun it would be to play a 2x4 5 string fretless bass! S'manth x

Good to know. At present I'm mucking with stuff I have to hand already, can get cheaply/quickly of Amazon or can 3D print to see if the concepts work. S'manth x

and so it begins Twiggy - a 2x4 proof of concept The right angle brackets are winging their way to me from Amazon as I type. S'manth x

Oh dear ... to put your screaming face at ease (I hope) ... in my experience (ymmv) IT: decades old; depending on application you can try new stuff and if it doesn't work, try something else (Not so much with things like fly by wire or life critical systems!); Innovation can be rapid and welcome. You can mess with people's tech. I really enjoy IT. Nursing (Critical Care): centuries old; think outside the box ... hmmm ... OK but don't act! Discuss it, get it vetted by multiple layers/disciplines, trialed, studied, etc (basically do it by the book); Make sure it is going to work as you cannot get do-overs. Innovation is slow. When you consider that a critical care nurse is responsible for their patient's well being and are often performing such separate activities as basic care, monitoring & responding to changes, ventilation management, sedation management (sometimes with paralytic agents), renal dialysis and a whole bunch of other stuff (If you're interested you can check out some New to ITU sheets I wrote for nurses coming to critical care to help during covid) You cannot mess with people's lives or wellbeing. I absolutely love nursing, it feeds my heart! (Sadly, my bank account not so much!) It took me a while to realise why, despite the fact that there is nothing so rewarding for me as to help my patients and their families (even when this is sadly only to help make bad things less bad) it does not feed the creative, lets try this and if it doesn't work try something else side of me that IT (and other maker type stuff) provides. S'manth x

Indeed! And 10,000 mAh capacity is not that large. I do have plans to build some widgetry so I can also power my Ant amp and HX Stomp using from the USB power bank (or a larger cousin) to be totally mains free; I play in a ukulele band, my band mates can go totally acoustic for street based or other "venues" where we have no access to power ... I could with my Roland Microcube (10h with a fresh set of rechargeable AA batteries), but my current setup needs more juice. S'manth x

Thinking outside the box brought me dividends in my IT career (not so much in nursing lol). Brass channels would be easier, but I want to avoid introducing any friction that might lead to (googles for the correct term) backlash in the tuning system. S'manth x

And just before I dive into fabrication mode ... Ball ends are not ball ends. Are all/most bass strings like this? Imagine the brass collet embedded into the headstock ... with a knurled head bolt (like this) you could fix these without an Allen key. Suddenly the idea of a double ball end string seems more appealing ... S'manth x

It will all become clear ... I see two extremes Wow ... that's innovative S'manth, are you a witch? or Why no one in their right mind would do such a thing! S'manth x

For those interested, Trampa in its current form draws a fairly steady 160mA. The battery in the pedalboard has a capacity of 10,000 mAh, which should give an operating time between charges of about 62 hours! 🎉 Once I get the extra 3 displays in, this will reduce ... worst case to about 15 hours ... tho it is possible to do some clever stuff with low power consumption with the cpu so might be better. S'manth x

Totally the top one for Flo. The only difference is that between the bridge/saddle and the tuners I've thrown in the pulleys which allows me to move the tuner to the back of the bass. This mean that the total length of Flo will be B<->H instead of A<->H. S'manth x

I have no words ... that is amazing! (S'manth furiously runs through the steps needed to 3D print a prototype of that system using a 2x4 fretless bass) S'manth x

Yes, yes yes! I am groked! I cannot put it in words well, but my vision will hopefully be clearer when I get the CAD model updated with tuners. COVID finally caught me on Sat (as well as 3 other band members, wonder where we got it!) and I've been feeling well rough but I shall redouble my effort to get it done. In my mind's eye Flo appears as a thing of elegant simplicity. I really like your idea about the bridge ... using fret inserts is an amazing suggestion. Easy enough for me to try and it may open the road for me to use a home grown piezo system. One thing I really liked about the UBASS was it's more upright tone, I'd love to be able to mix/blend the magnetic pups with a piezo pickup (Or rather with 5 individual piezo pickups). Might it be feasible to intonate by physically sliding the saddles up/down the body, relying on the pressure of the strings to hold them in the correct position? If I 3D printed them I can have them any shape I like and can print them in whatever height I want to adjust bridge action (I can get down to layer resolutions of 0.07mm on my 3D printer) 🤔 (OK S'manth ... less waffling and more CAD modelling!) S'manth x

Just one thing @Geek99 🤣 S'manth x

Ooooo ... those look really cool!! How do they work? S'manth x

Nice vid @stewblack, really interesting to see how bass as an element of music has developed. But OMG 64 ft organ pipes!!! And relating to the OP video, I feel really rather sorry for the "Fact Man" ... he seems so deeply sad S'manth x

Awesome! S'manth x

Indeed, my intention at present is single ball with the ball at the head. A very informed point of view! My current direction (whilst not double ball) would require custom strings to fit the Steinberger Gearless (Assuming they could even cope with the tension); A wee hole at the top of the neck, parallel to the trussrod would accommodate an Allen key, a spare in my gig bag would likely obviate the risk of not having one to hand on the odd occasion that I needed it. Being able to utilise ball end in the tuners would open up more options like technology for music or nova. Thank you @Andyjr1515 🥰 S'manth x

Not at all ... thanks for taking the time to read and contribute. I agree the points you raise may be challenging. I've emailed Newtone to ask what sort of string will I need on my B0 to get a reasonable tension (and what will that tension be); the whole tension thing has me scratching my head a lot! But if I get away with a tension that is within the range found on a guitar then I should be OK? The 0.060 size limit is a bummer, I imagine I'll need a larger gauge; so assuming B was too big but C would fit the tuner I've asked Newtone if I can use just the core (C) through a tuner or if it would lead to wrap delamination. And if it is a problem, could they do another thinner wrap that would cover the B-C section in my diagram and run some way along the B towards A ... if this thinner wrap plus the core was 0.060 or less then we're cooking (subject to the tension question). I also asked them whether sending the string around the pulley was likely to cause any problems for the string. I saw the patent expiry but I don't understand enough about patent law, can they not just tweak it a bit to be more in line with what they actually do (as you say the original is very vague) and then renew it or get a new patent? Having said that a slew of 3rd party makers may be good, tho the reviews I've seen of other Steinberger copy tuners (you know who you are) do not make me think they are worth investigating. If only my 3D printer could print metal parts! S'manth x

In this case it may well be tuning machines from Turing machines. 🤣

How would you do this? Apart from getting Nelson to do it ... S'manth x (And please dig, dig, dig some more ... I'd love to see your drawing)

Much to my horror I'm finding this already! 😱 @Jabba_the_gut, headless hardware is proving to be a challenge. Some of the features I'm looking for are common/rare/expensive. Captive ball-end head mount: Let's start with the easy bit lol! There seem to be a number of approaches. I prefer to not use a grub screw approach (I find it too easy to lose Allen keys!) So the options seem to be these two approaches. I need to ensure that the distance between the ball-end and the string winding is short enough so that the strings are at their full diameter when they get to my 0 fret. Individual bridge units. The approach I'm taking to reduce the LOA of Flo is to use a string through body design with the bridge front mounted and the tuners on the rear. ⁉️ Given she's multi-scale the bridges are quite spread out and so the units need to be individual. And look at that ... LOA of 846mm (33.3 in) and B0 scale length of 780mm (30.7 in) ... just what I was aiming for (I wonder if it will sound good ... or even play at all!) They also need to be thru body compatible. There seem to be a few about, the Babizc FCH are my favourites (But about $80 each!) Others range in price (From ... "I'd need to sell body parts" to "At that price it must be made of cardboard") I might look at getting a set of these and mounting them in individual strips of angle metal Google turns up a number of DIY bridges, so this approach seems viable. Tuning machines The tuning machines (I think) can be in a single block or separate units. ALP do something that 'might' do the trick, but whilst the reviews I've read praise it's design ... it seems to be built from low quality materials which means it slips/slides/detunes too easily The more I research the more I come to believe that Steinberger is the god of tuning machine designs. Two of these stand out to me as being suitable for Flo. Steinberger Locking Gearless Tuners They need no tools, have a ration of 40:1 and are not insanely expensive (< £100 for a set of six) but ... they state a maximum string gauge of 0.060! I believe that I am going to need thick strings for my B0 (perhaps 0.130) I wonder for a 0.130 outer wrap diameter what the core diameter would be; I know it will differ from one mfr to another but ... ? I wonder if it is "safe" to only have the inner core go through the tuning machine or if would cause the outer wrap to unravel? The other tuners I love are those on NS Design Radius. But I am not even sure they are sold separately and would likely cost way too much! Buy or Build The ball-end head thingies seem easy enough to make, the saddle/bridge a little more complex. NS Design Details can be found in the patent. 🤔I wonder if I should aim for a hat-trick build. How cool would it be that if someone asks me "Which elements of Flo I custom designed" I could answer "All of them". Tho, just for clarity, at present I am most certainly not thinking about winding my own pups! S'manth x