Phil Starr

I feel I should have responded earlier but mis-read your post. I thought you were looking for a guitar speaker not a bass speaker. Don't worry about not being able to match specs to 'tone', even for those of us with a lot of experience it isn't an exact science. Thiele Small specs only really tell you about the bass quality. The frequency response chart will give an idea of the sound of the speaker but only if you are doing this a lot and in the end it's only an impression, we still need to build and listen. That Fane looks like a good little speaker, it would have been on my short list. I really don't think you will find this very satisfying though as an open backed design. With a short path from the back of the speaker to the front the sound from the back will cancel the sound from the front and you'll have no deep sounds. Also with no air load on the back of a speaker which has a relatively soft suspension you will have to down rate the power handling quite a lot maybe as low as 30w. This isn't a problem for home practice but you mustn't treat this as a 225W speaker if you are tempted to try it with a band. At the very least seal the cab with a wooden panel and some mastic. If you get adventurous you can try porting the cab, that will give you an extra 3dB of bass and a fuller sound. You can port through the blanking panel which would leave your cab intact if you wanted to return it to guitar duties later. Someone here will help you with any calculations.

I'd think a Barefaced 10 would be more than enough. I've gigged with a Hartke single 10 (in a Kickback combo) and it was easily adequate. This is a much lesser beast than the BF so you'll be fine. It might be worth getting a stand so you can tilt it to point at you

Start looking for another band. I had a similar experience with a band I 'joined' just over a year ago. The audition was postponed twice, so by the time I auditioned I'd learned the whole set. Audition went well as far as my bit was concerned but the singer didn't show and guitarist bandleader did the vocals. I got the spot but the bandleader rang next day to say the band had folded. Turns out the singer didn't want to continue and thought they'd never get a replacement bassist so he wouldn't have to break any bad news. The only way this band are going to get going is if you know another singer and are happy to take the initiative. If any of your band are any good then keep in touch, you never know when you'll need another musician

Hi Kevin, need a bit more detail really are your current tops active or passive? It's clear the subs are active but are you looking for a mixer amp to drive some passive tops or the whole kit. Yamaha make a nice system where the mixer amp fits in the back of one of the speakers The Stagepas 400i It has a big brother the 6ooi and an older relative the Stagepas 300 which is great for just vocals and acoustic instruments and should be available cheap second hand. If it's just the active mixer they used to do a nice mixer amp EMX512 a bit like a beefed up guitar amp, they've discontinued this but reliability is so good you should be able to buy with confidence. If not you are going down the Phonic/ Behringer route, I've had no problems personally with this stuff but I've seen a few in for repair so I'd rather look out for a used Yammy.

Thanks everyone, never thought I'd be playing classic rock but it's throwing up some interesting challenges, which I suppose is why it's good to keep an open mind. Lots to think about too. Basschat comes up trumps again and within a couple of hours.

In the Killers song it's just a couple of quick triplets (Octave Fifth) before you change down to the B it's in the drum pattern and it isn't observed every time so you can get away with just playing two beats which Marl Stoermer (just looked that up) does on the original recording s often as not. Yeah, practice will solve it but I'm interested to see all the options before getting into bad habits

Thanks Dan, I'm currently experimenting with three fingers but of course they aren't all the same length, so keeping it even is the problem. God obviously didn't play bass or he'd have arranged hands differently I've also caught myself 'double fingering' by flicking the string on the return stroke with my middle finger, that feels like cheating though. The advantage of the double flick is that my fingers return to where they would normally be for the rest of the pattern. Just off to google Steve Harris

I've come across a few songs recently where I need to play fast triplets. All These Things That I've Done: Killers, The Final Countdown, Jean Genie Etc. I play finger style and fast triplets don't seem to sit easily with a two finger style. How do people work around this. I've started to play with a pick but it's still feeling clumsy I'll persevere because it'll extend what I can do but in the meantime there have to be other ways of getting round this for a finger player.

It's possible anything loose in the room will rattle if you play loud through another cab. If your cab hits the tuning frequency of the broken cab it might even be quite loud. All I can suggest though is that you go through the usual checks. make sure nothing inside the cab is touching the cone, check the internal wiring in particular. then check that the driver is properly bolted down. Go right round the cone making sure everything is glued in place properly checking the corrugated surround and the central dust cap in particular. Also check the rest of the cab to see if anything is loose, it can be difficult to exactly locate where a rattle is coming from by ear. Good luck

Hi Al, replacing speakers is tricky in two ways, neither of them insuperable but you need to know. One is that speakers need to be matched to cabs especially in tuned/ported cabs. without doing that you won't get the best out of the speaker and at worst it can de-rate the power handling of the driver. People here will help you with what you need to do to re-tune the cab but it might mean taking a saw to the cab, difficult if you need to sell it later. The second is that all speakers have their own character and you won't know what they will sound like until they are bought and installed. If you are trying out your MB with the Tecamp then you can go on trying it out with other speakers without having to do any surgery. If you find a dream 1x12 in a cab the same size as your combo it might be simple to do a swap, or not. Would you be happy to take your amp out of the combo and make up a new sleeve for it so you could use it just as an amp? Or would you be better off selling the combo and buying a separates system? £350 plus whatever you get by selling your combo would buy you a lot of good possible choices. Maybe start with the MB III if you like that amp. I settled on the MB Tube after hearing a fellow BC'ers MB III. The problem is that if you alter your combo it will lose value, not a problem if you can do a straight swap and swap the original speaker back if you decide to sell. You might be lucky and be able to fit something like the Eminence 3012HO which is a lovely speaker, lightweight and great excursion/power handling without having to do too much to the cab. Add a second in an add on cab and you'd have huge sound and power handling if you needed that little bit more. I'd need to do some calculations to see if that would work and no-one can guarantee you'd like the sound, that would come down to personal taste.

There's this http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-708-a-mk4 They used to do one in the 3 series too but that seems to have gone. I was going to suggest PMT too. One of the few places you get to try out PA gear with a reasonable range of stock.

Al the QSC is a whole lot more capable than the Wharfedale. I didn't think we were in that budget region. There's also the RCF to look at if that is your price range. Both fantastic speakers The Titan 's shortcomings are in the plastic mounded cab which resonates with high bass levels. My estimation is that at less than a metre from the drummer it won't need to be that loud though and it would be an order of magnitude better than the Behringer 205D in this respect. I still think it would do the original job of drummers monitor but you won't be playing bass straight through it. The advantage of any speaker with DSP is that they won't ever fart out. The limiters in the DSP will stop that happening, the QSC may even have multi channel limiters where the bass is limited separately, you'd have to look that up. If it has two channel mixing on the speaker the drummer could mix in the feed from the PA to their monitor. Dont believe the 1000W thing though, there isn't an 8" speaker on earth that could handle that. The figure you should be looking at is the output in dB which is way louder than you'd ever need,

Hi Al, I'm just about to set off so no time to answer now, but in the meantime a question. What exactly do you want from an upgrade? Sounds stupid but are you looking for different tone, more bass, greater volume or what?

It depends upon what you are trying to do, if you already own these speakers and are just curious then you'll end up with a working speaker, you'll have learned something and had some fun. If you have to buy these speakers then probably give it a miss. This is not a marriage made in heaven. The first thing is that the speakers have different sensitivities with the Beta being 2-3dB louder than the BP122 so they will dominate the sound. Secondly get the two frequency plots up on screen, all the lumps and bumps above 500Hz are what give the speakers their 'sound'. Where they line up the effect will be additive but few of the bumps line up exactly and what you will get is a smoothed out response. Add in the beaming Bill mentions and it's likely to be a dull sounding speaker though dominated by the Betas. Even if you already own the speakers I'd be tempted to build two 2x12's. That gives you the option of using them together, either cab separately and also as a stereo set up. Together you can use them as a vertical stack which gives better dispersal but if you want to investigate using them side by side as in a traditional 4x12 then that's an option too. If you don't already own the speakers then I'd go for four Betas.

Hope it works out Al. I've got a couple of the 12" versions, really reliable and sound great. Back to learning 'The Final Countdown'

I don't think the cut off frequency should be an issue for a monitor. All the important information about timing etc is carried by the mids and so long as the monitor carries everything above 120Hz I think that'd be fine. In any case the deep bass from your cab is Omni directional so the drummer would hear that. The problem is the speaker handling a lot of bass without distorting. You could use a filter but that makes it complex which won't be the solution you are looking for. One solution did pop up though. DJKit were offering the Wharfedale Titan 8 for little money this week, that's the passive but it occurred to me that the active one at around £180 would maybe do what you want, and it is stand mounted. 119dB spec so it'd drown out the drums if needed and the speakers are electronically protected from mis-use http://www.wharfedalepro.com/product-detail.php?pid=3

You are right to identify the need for a dedicated sound person. That makes one of the advantages of going through the PA less easy to achieve. The advantages of going through the PA are simple enough. Going through the PA means someone out where the audience are can balance the sound for them meaning the whole band sound better. Secondly any sound going on behind the mic line will be picked up by the vocal mics, including your bass. This muddies up the sound going through the PA and means you can never get a clean vocal feed. Then there is the issue of the sound level on stage. High levels damage your hearing long term and make it difficult for us to really hear each other well. Singers are often forced to belt out their vocals straining their voices and making it far harder to sing with any inflection or subtlety just to be heard over the racket. Without any help from the PA you have no choice about volume, it has to be loud enough for the audience. The only advantage of not going through the PA is simplicity. No mics or Di's means less to go wrong and setting up is simple enough for all to understand. Turn up until you are loud enough to match the drums and no-one is louder than each other and then just play. The balance will be the same for every song and whist it might not be perfect it shouldn't be too far out if every band member is sensible. This only works though in small venues if one of the instruments won't reach the back of a big venue you've pretty much got to accept low sound values or all go through the PA.

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1510337429' post='3405785'] A further suggestion re. band PA systems. Don't buy everything jointly. It can get complicated when people leave or the band splits and you have to sell it all (you rarely/never get what it's worth from a utility point of view) or get replacement members to buy into it. Best for individual members to own individual pieces of equipment - one owns the mixing desk, one the speakers (or one each), etc. That way, if you part company, you each take your own stuff with you and if someone leaves, they take what's theirs and the replacement member just has to provide similar. [/quote] This too

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1510321249' post='3405577'] [color=#000000]I’ve thought about going down this route, and I suppose if I went second-hand, then at least if I was to sell it on, the chances are I would get most of my money back.[/color][/size] [/quote] Why not list what your band use at the moment? Then we can suggest upgrades that won't cost the earth and would improve your sound. Who knows; you might get more gigs as a result of sounding better and if not you still own the PA. I went out and bought my PA to prevent this being an issue in any band I'm in. Buy used and you can cash it in any time and get almost all your money back.

It may be about which mixer you use. Some cheaper mixers use the jack input as a line level input and the XLR as a mic level input, which is much lower. If your amps DI output is line level it would be too high output for the XLR mic input. If the mixer has no way of padding (reducing) the input then you can't use it with the XLR to XLR connection. Using the jack connection is better as explained above because it is quieter. Using the DI will allow your guy to match the inputs and use a low noise connection. It means you lose control of what the bass sounds like out of the PA. It's also possible that he wants to do this because it's just what PA engineers do. We're control freaks and also creatures of habit. If you want to send your own eq'd sound then ask him why he can't just run your DI out straight into the XLR/mic input on the mixer. If it's a mismatch then you could use the DI box to pad down your post eq signal. Or if you trust him just let him get on with it, maybe get a long lead and go and listen to the bass through the PA, once he knows the sound you want he should be able to hit it pretty much every time.

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1509186434' post='3397191'] What is the better option, powered mixer/passive speakers, or the other way round? [/quote] In today's world it is probably better to use passive mixer/active speakers. If one active speaker goes dead then the other will let you finish the gig. Use active speakers and the amp will always match the speakers and protection can be built in, making the whole thing foolproof. However in practice you won't notice the difference at your price point, so long as your active mixer is powerful enough, and by buying used passive speakers you can probably get something that sounds better than you'd expect the other way round. If you can continue to use your existing mixer then blowing the whole of your budget on a pair of actives would give you an immediate improvement in sound and could be the sensible start of a planned upgrade programme which you could add to as you can afford it. you might find this useful [url="https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207"]https://www.ultimate...d.php?t=1591207[/url] it's a little out of date so some of the links might not work but the general principles are still good.

In ears? If that is unacceptable (personally I struggle with feeling isolated from the room with them) then you need to go back to first principles. You need monitoring for both yourself and the drummer, and presumably for the rest of the band? It's not clear what your bass amp is doing in your post. You say it isn't going through the PA so I assume it is loud enough for the audience, if so I'm not sure exactly why the drummer can't hear. One trick I've used to get the sound levels on stage down is to use a bass amp with the mid/highs up and bass rolled off. Then I DI the flat signal into the PA and with the bass boosted through the PA and the tops cut in mirror image to the on stage sound the audience get a balanced mix. It sounds good on stage too because the bass from the PA is audible. Boosting the mids in particular means the bass is much clearer and you can turn the stage monitor down lower, helped by angling the speaker at your (and drummer's) ears. I used a Hartke Kickback to do this. I gave this up in the end because although I liked it my drummers always liked a lot more trouser flapping bass than me. Those mini monitors are really only good for vocals. I've got the TC Voicelive version of the B205D and it's no better at bass. You are going to have to go for floor monitors or small PA speakers to get what you want. You could go for both of you using floor monitors, by angling them at your ears you can get the stage levels down and direct the mid/highs at your ears and away from your vocal/instrument mics.

It's true, my subs usually stay in the cupboard. At least half the times I've used them have been in the more 'lively' pub where they are really only there because they are harder to knock over than speaker stands

First of all I'd say go for something that you know will sound good, that seems obvious but probably means buying a well thought of brand. Secondly list your needs and allow for everything. For me a PA includes all the leads including spares mics, stands, floor monitors as well as the mixer amps and speakers. You may already have some/most of this but it's worth budgeting for everything you need. A brand new hi spec set of active speakers isn't going to sound good if you are using horrible vocal mics and your singer is out of tune because the vocal monitors aren't up to the job. If I was starting from scratch and money no object I'd go for a digital mixer and active speakers, but there's not yet a lot of this on the used market as you are in the early stages of people trading in their old systems. This means that there is a lot of old, heavy passive stuff out there which is very cheap at the moment and which sonically will equal most modern gear. the cost is weight and flexibility. Separate mixers, amps and speakers take longer to set up and knock down and mean more trips to the van but may be the best you can do in your price bracket. You can halve that effort by going for an active mixer like the Yamaha mentioned above. You could match that with a pair of Yamaha club series speakers like the S112V's and have a pretty good sounding basic PA for £300 leaving you money for any extras like monitors. I think you'll struggle to get a PA based on active speakers and a digital mixer at your budget. You could go for a couple of active speakers and use a very simple mixer which you'd update when funds allowed. In which case I'd definitely spend some time on researching the speakers and make sure they are what you want in your final system. RCF are the ones to beat at the moment but EV and Yamaha make some good kit too.

Slade, it does have a good bass line, genuinely fin to play IMO.