Phil Starr

There's two reasons for getting an amp. You are in control, whenever you need to be. There's no reason why PA and good quality monitors shouldn't work but it's a rare band that has this sort of thing sorted and the technical support to make it work every time. I've played gigs where the sound engineer has cut the bass out of the monitors halfway through a gig or done something else stupid, its not pleasant. Most bands are looking for someone with decent gear, if nothing else it shows a level of commitment and organisation. I'd be far more likely to take on a singer with a decent mic and their own monitors for example even if we ended up using my gear. It just shows they are in it for the long term and don't expect to be carried. Most bands won't be set up to even audition you which means it'll take longer, maybe much longer to find a band. Ironically if you get into the right band they may well see the advantages of ditching the back line but you'll all need the gear to reach that point.

Ha ha, You really do see money differently over there. Probably why the UK is skint . On the other hand I own the PA and lights. 'Mediocre bassist with PA looking for a band, reliable but lacking talent' what do you think?

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1474327814' post='3137228'] An awful lot of repetetive lyrics in the last show. G. [/quote]Sadly this seems to be the current 'thing'. The interesting bit of current music is the layering when putting it together with lots of light and shade and some great rhythms, but with so much music produced in the studio lyrics seem to have taken a back seat. I'm not one of those that thinks everything was better in the 60's (insert your own teenage years here) but I do like a good song.

I share the view of the old Peavey cabs, I have an old 15BXBW which goes in the rehearsal room and sounds fab with whatever amp I use. I've never dreamed of carrying the thing to a gig though. The science bit is interesting and i've not seen much discussion of it here in recent times. There's plenty of talk about watts, rather less about decibels and the poor old Phon is rarely mentioned. Obviously the ease with which a speaker turns electrical power into sound is important and that's where the decibels come in. A speaker which needs one watt to turn out 100dB is going to be a lot louder than one which only produces 94dB from one watt and in fact will need four times the power to produce the same volume. So yes, one speaker could objectively be much louder than another. However speakers are rarely really good at producing a flat response. That can affect our perception of 'loudness' just as much as the speakers efficiency. Our ears work best when we are listening to the frequencies of the human voice, or thereabouts. That obviously makes evolutionary sense especially as it also gives us a great chance of detecting most other natural hazards around us. We can't really hear low frequencies at all well and our upper hearing limit isn't great either. If you are young enough to still be able to hear above 10kHz you won't hear as well as in the midrange. There are graphs of equal loudness out there to see this effect [url="https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Lindos1.svg/400px-Lindos1.svg.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour&h=359&w=400&tbnid=qepxq0BZAnKbaM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=178&docid=0DQDz2baTAH4IM&usg=__GhsSRuVKl54U1PMK9YCOvE92mF8=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwik37H12JvPAhXqAcAKHbzfCksQ9QEIIjAA"]https://www.google.c...bzfCksQ9QEIIjAA[/url] So the Phon measures sounds of equal loudness whatever their frequency, you never see sound levels measured this way but it certainly explains why some cabs and amps have a reputation for 'loudness' out of all relationship to their specs, Marshall 4x12 anyone? So if you wanted to manufacture something loud all you need to do is emphasise the mid frequencies around 1-4kHz. A 3db hump in here is going to make the speaker sound a whole lot louder. I'd argue a little with molan though. Most of us prefer a slight mid peak as it makes the bass sound punchier and more articulate. Truly flat speakers can sound a little dull. Something like the TKS 1126 has a 3dB boost at 1'5kHz [url="http://www.bassgear.co.uk/product/tks-engineering-1126-black-v-frame-silver-cloth/"]http://www.bassgear....e-silver-cloth/[/url] presumably deliberately as it has the 6" driver with a crossover and could have engineered this out. The trick is to get just the right amount of mids and with the peak wide and flat to avoid the nasal and gritty sound. Obviously not every design is going to be as successful with all basses though as they will all have their own peaks and suckouts.

I'm not a big fan of KOL but the bass did sound lovely. Actually made me think, he plays very simply but what a lovely, accurate clean sound which worked really well with their songs. Maybe time for me to clean up my playing. M83 were terrific.

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1474214453' post='3136275'] Thanks for reminding me Phil.... Yep put a rather expensive 15" ( I think it was about £150?) in an Ahsdown cab, blew it after a few gigs, no comeback whatsoever, never again... think it was this one or thereabouts [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIC2515&browsemode=manufacturer"]http://www.bluearan....de=manufacturer[/url] [/quote] Sorry Steve, still I think you've now got the ones you love.

Good choice

If you are just messing around, a quick swap just out of curiosity there'd be no harm in a few minutes at home and with the volume down to reasonable levels but as has been said the mis-matched cab could result in your driver only being able to handle 100watts. Playing at home on your own would also mean a fair chance of hearing any odd noises indicating damage setting in. Frankly if you do it on stage all bets are off unless you have done the calculations. Ask Skidder of this parish who tried it with a 15" speaker a couple of years back.

Hmm this is obviously more to do with personal relationships rather than anything technical. You seem to get on well with this guy and with the band. It shouldn't be too difficult. firstly you actually have two problems, one real and one suspected. Monitoring and FOH mix. The best thing is to separate them. Monitoring has to be right, if you can't hear you can't play. If the sound guy doesn't get that then he is very inexperienced/lacking in knowledge. In the end you just have to be assertive and talk to him, no need to be aggressive or rude but just let him know that there is a problem and it's affecting your playing and ultimately the band's sound. See if he has any suggestions but if he can't offer anything be ready with suggestions. They are, turning you up in the monitor mix, giving you your own monitor mix or taking some back line to give you on stage monitoring (you'd have to square that last one with the band of course). Is he operating with just one monitor mix? That may be because he doesn't have enough busses on the mixer. If so then your mixer is probably not good enough to run in ear monitoring well. You can solve this with either a mixer upgrade or by splitting your bass feed so you get both his feed and a signal from your bass which you can feed into a little mixer/headphone amp which you control. As to the FOH sound you just have to get out there at the sound check and have a listen, which means a long lead or a wireless system.

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1473787852' post='3133155'] I'm not saying all of the tone of the instrument is determined by the pickup. Clearly, woods, construction etc make a huge difference be instrument acoustically but surely that all becomes redundant once you use the pickups? Prime example, if you have a jazz and solo the bridge you wouldn't retain the low end response and resonance that the wood type brings to the acoustic tone. It would be manipulated by the voicing of the pickup (if it transferred into the pickup in the first place) surely? [/quote] I'm not sure what you are saying here. The pickup will respond to the bit of string above it, filtered by the inductance of the coil and the capacitance of the wiring etc. How that string vibrates will be affected by anything attached to it, the neck and body of the bass and the termination of the strings, the nut or the fret/fingerboard and bridge. So though I've probably oversimplified all of these will affect the tone.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1473669897' post='3132024'] Without wanting to stir the hornets nest, I'd first suggest trying different cabinets. Maybe the TH won't play ball with them because of their own short-comings. Speaking from experience of MarkBass 10's, I'm afraid that I found the 2x10 cabinets lacking in punch and nasal! Really sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear! Exceptional configurations I have tried with the TH500 include the Berg Cn212 that easily held it's own un-miked - a single Hartke 4.5XL and my current favourite and go to cabinet, the Big Twin II. My only disclaimer is that most amplifiers run out of steam eventually and if you are trying to get your amp to deliver more volume than the cabinets are actually capable of outputting (Sensitivity and SPL), then yes you will lack punch. Get more sensitive cabinets or add more speakers, because a bigger amplifier (say going from 500 watts to 800 watts) will actually only add a few decibels to your overall volume. [/quote] [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1473670848' post='3132033'] This definitely isn't a dig at you Dood, but it's funny how, in this this world of micro amps, we're used to talking about upgrading from 500w to 800w without batting an eyelid. This would have been pretty much unheard of when old-school AB amps were the norm, unless you were a touring pro. There was just no need for it. It makes you wonder what's [i]really[/i] going on under the hood of the Class D's. *cough* TC *cough* [/quote] This is getting to the nub of the issue I reckon. I've no doubt that if you took a 3000W class D PA amp through an 8x10 and drove it from a Sansamp then you'd be happy with the 'heft'. I really don't think there is a problem per-se with class D. There seems to me to be a couple of problems 'under the hood' though. The first is the problem with the power supplies, also switch mode and also lightweight. I think too many of these are probably underpowered and are unable to provide the 500W for more than a few thousandths of a second. Fine for a PA amp where you want undistorted sound but for a bassist regularly driving into distortion it'd feel like the class D amp was running out of steam. Of course there were class A/B amps with underpowered power supplies too. You get what you pay for here as well so it wouldn't be surprising to find expensive lightweight amps have better power supplies and seem punchier. The second thing is that going lightweight only makes sense if you trade in both speakers and amps. It's pushing it to get enough sound out of a little speaker and you need something fairly exotic to get enough sound out of a 2x10. You are going to get an awful lot more decibels out of an 8x10. With a mid-price 2x10 you simply don't have the headroom to start giving 6dB 0f bass boost for instance so if your preference is for that sort of eq you are going to have problems. So I think dood is right, it's the speakers that need some thought, or perhaps the speaker/amp combination or even the speaker/amp/bass interaction.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1473260022' post='3128438'] Zoom B1.on + £20 Seinheinser headphones + an audio source, could be an MP3 player, tablet or laptop [/quote] You are probably bored with this answer by now but this is what I use, I get about a weeks use out of rechargables too. Happy days.

Ha ha I know how loud you play Steve. You'd obviously set off a room resonance somewhere. You might also have been getting some feedback off the sub. Reversing the polarity might have fixed that but left the room resonance so that you only lost some of the effect.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1473336405' post='3129224'] He's not wrong, y'know, and the same applies to bassists, too (as, indeed, to all musicians...). Technique for technique's sake is very rarely what's required. Who was it said 'Less is more.'..? Wise words, usually. [/quote] The first 40 seconds of All Right Now have often been said to be the most effective bass line ever.

how do you know your drummer is at the door? he knocks twice and comes in late

There's a lot to think about but in the end you don't get many flat response bass speakers, they are musical instrument speakers and a non flat response might be pleasing without being 'right'. There's a few considerations: the beta has a huge peak above about 700Hz peaking between 1000 and 3000Hz. That complicates the crossover design, if you already have too much output at 2000Hz then adding in a tweeter at that frequency is going to create quite a peak! Conventionally you'd probably use the crossover roll off to reduce that peak and then roll in the horn so that the response was flat at the crossover point. Electrically the two drivers would be crossing over at different points but the aim would be to get a more or less flat response. You'd also need to take into consideration the phase response of both speakers. The horn is going to be much more efficient than the Beta meaning you'll need to use some resistors to pad down the power to the horn whilst keeping the impedance seen by the crossover at your target value (8ohms probably) You need to decide if you are just going to use a high pass filter to the horn or a full 2 way crossover so the two speakers won't both be producing the same frequencies to avoid some of the problems above. Stevie has some software to design a crossover and may be willing to help you design what you need. Alternatively you could buy a ready made crossover which will work but not exactly match the drivers you will be using. It'll split the power for you and you will probably be OK with the sound even if it isn't exactly hi fi. You can use plenty of calculators on the internet to pad down the horn by whatever no of decibels you choose so that won't be a big problem. I notice that blue Aran do a 3.8kHz crossover that seems to have some padding built in for the horn http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMAFD2CXFE&browsemode=category. The other consideration is that you need to match the horn to the needs of electric bass, there's almost no output apart from fret noise above 4000 Hz so you may not find too much of an improvement. A mid range driver may be more effective than a horn designed for a PA speaker.

[url="https://youtu.be/9oQsKRyihEA"]https://youtu.be/9oQsKRyihEA[/url] You've probably all seen this but .....

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1473202216' post='3128031'] I started off with the usual parbar system. They provide a lot of light for the money but are more appropriate for a disco than a band. They are also top heavy and flash through their effects faster than you would probably want if the band rather than the lights are meant to be the main attraction. I then bought a 12way lighting bar [url="http://www.americandj.eu/en/ultra-bar-12.html"]http://www.americand...tra-bar-12.html[/url] which sits on the floor behind the band casting light up against the rear wall it's still too fast but really effective, takes up no space and concentrates peoples attention on the band. If you want a single light then this is what I'd go for. Combine it with a couple of static lights to let the band see what they are doing and you'd have a great little set up. [/quote] Just to give you an idea this is a single 12 way bar behind the drummer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyCpTuErSR8 It needs some light from the front to throw something onto our faces but I reckon what you have would do that nicely.

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1473271867' post='3128595'] Wood - how bright are those little led par cans? What sort of flood angle? [/quote]The ad says 40 degreees

I started off with the usual parbar system. They provide a lot of light for the money but are more appropriate for a disco than a band. They are also top heavy and flash through their effects faster than you would probably want if the band rather than the lights are meant to be the main attraction. I then bought a 12way lighting bar http://www.americandj.eu/en/ultra-bar-12.html which sits on the floor behind the band casting light up against the rear wall it's still too fast but really effective, takes up no space and concentrates peoples attention on the band. If you want a single light then this is what I'd go for. Combine it with a couple of static lights to let the band see what they are doing and you'd have a great little set up.

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1473074120' post='3126534'] The old Motorola piezos sound great if you do use a crossover. The problem is most people bought Motorola's hype about not need if a crossover. Used correctly they have far less distortion than a typical compression horn. I will be building the 1x12 very soon and intend to put a piezo in it. If you are happy for me to try it and post my results in the 1x12 thread I am happy to do it. Sorry for the thread derail. [/quote] Sadly Motorola stopped making these years ago, another firm started making them but when I looked about 5 years ago these also weren't available in the UK, though I think there were some stocks in the USA. All I could find were cheap Chinese ones. Interestingly one Piezo horn driver I bought at the time has a crude L/C crossover built into it http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-10cm-Replacement-Piezo-Horn-High-Frequency-Tweeter-Speaker-Drivers-Parts-320W-/121346021132.

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1473068179' post='3126475'] Thanks very much for your kind offer , I've got a couple of friends that run PA hire companies & they are giving me some stuff to try out . [/quote] That's great, they should have active crossovers which will allow you to try all sorts of configurations at no cost other than time before committing to a build.

In that situation a piezo tweeter might be worth trying, they cost pennies and don't need a crossover. The down side is that they don't sound great but if they are just your personal monitor for the synth they might just give you enough to save you spending a fortune. There won't be a huge effect on your bass sound either. Power handling isn't great, they are usually rated in the maximum voltage they can handle 25-35V rms which equates to around 100W at 8 ohms, synth puts out a lot of power into the horns. The simple solution is to wire two in series ( I can hear Stevie and BFM flinching here as this is sooo wrong acoustically) It will work though I've got a box full of these in the loft , if you want to try and are happy to pay postage pm me and I'll send you a couple gratis. you can try them just resting on the cab and build a box after if you are happy with how they sound.

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1472674754' post='3123226'] I got Mike Rutherford, but I have no faith in the process as many of my real answers were not among the options presented. [/quote] Another Mike Rutherford, I suspect that wanting to answer properly may be what puts us there