Phil Starr

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1468260536' post='3089690'] I can synthesise with the drummer issue. Ive had the same drummer for 14 years and he never rehearses at home, cant remember any new bits we add, cant keep time, doesn't have the stamina to keep a steady beat....i could go on and on. utterly soul destroying but its really only now getting to me. I guess my tolerance is a lot higher than most people. [/quote] You've reassured me no end. If you were based in Exeter I'd think it was the same drummer. It wasn't just the drummer either. I got more and more frustrated, started to say things, tried to be constructive but they didn't like it and found myself between bands. FWIW I think the OP has it right, honouring the commitment makes you the professional and then you can put it behind you and chalk it up to experience.

just looked at the cab in your gear, is it the Peavey that matches the Mk IV head, I used to have one of those, They came with two Black Widow 15's with the metal domes if it is the same cab which gave quite a nice bright tone. If it is then the dimensions are a bit off.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1468403274' post='3090650'] I was referring to the type the OP was particularly asking about in my response. Yes, I know that PA cabs can do bass! [/quote] Hi Dan, yep I knew you'd know that I just didn't want the OP or anyone else to think it was an impossible quest. Technically it's do-able but it won't be dirt cheap and he'd have to allow for a super clean sound, which not everyone likes. Whether a PA speaker is easier to carry than a lightweight combo is another issue too. I guess that if money is no object the AER Amp One would be ideal

Yep, the dimensions are pretty much the starting point. I'd not recommend anything without knowing that at least they match the cab well enough to handle the power you are likely to use. Is there a budget limit? It wouldn't be hard to spend £200 a speaker.

[quote name='biro' timestamp='1468337647' post='3090257'] Then, however, I thought: what about buying a powered speaker, and putting a sansamp or Zoom B3 before it, running my amp / cab combo combination? After all, I thought, one could probably get better bang for the buck in terms of wattage My question, broadly, is whether something like this http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_play_12a.htm [/quote] [quote name='dood' timestamp='1468338682' post='3090271'] PA active cabinets will work - I mean, you can plug your bass in to them via the B3 and you'll be able to hear yourself as long as the rest of the band aren't too loud. Certainly the plastic box versions you have linked to will easily be swallowed up if the guitarist turns up with a 30W valve amp cranked. The other downside is that those PA cabinets aren't really designed to 'do' bass end. Great for vocals and the top end of keys maybe, but our bass frequencies require lots of energy to be heard (have girth etc) so you may be left for wanting unless it's only for monitoring purposes where you aren't bothered with not having low end. [/quote] It's not quite true that PA speakers aren't designed to do bass. the better ones are. They are expected to have both the bass and kick drums running through them and at similar volumes, maybe louder than the backline. What you can't expect is something to do the job for £200. Let's say the competition is between a conventional lightweight setup and and a PA speaker. If you went the Markbass/Barefaced route You'd end up paying £900 ish. Part of this is because you are paying for something optimised for bass and part of this is because anything bass is automatically a bit specialised and made in smaller production runs. So, the better comparison would be with something like QSC or RCF. The RCF ART712 might be a better comparison at about £500. Add in a bass pre amp and you are talking £6-700. There's a small saving because the PA speaker is more of a mass produced product and you have a much better tweeter and crossover than most bass gear. In this case the 12" driver is designed to handle bass. What you lose is having a sound deliberately coloured to flatter your bass, though you may be able to eq some of that back in. I started out using PA speakers for my bass. It works no problem, in fact I personally liked the hi-fi sound and I'm toying with the idea of using them again. Fundamentally though you can't have cheap, light and loud all at the same time, what you are suggesting is do-able but you'll need to invest. If there is a PMT near you then you could probably try your bass through the PA speakers.

Before you do this you should be aware of the possible outcome. Speaker cabs work by balancing the air load in the cab against the movement of the cone which acts as both a spring and a damper. In a ported cab like yours the port also tunes the cab to the speaker making sure you get the most output from the speakers and the best power handling. If you swap speakers around without anyone doing the calculations then two probelms might occur. You may not get a great sound and the bass might not be great. If you lower the power handling enough then your speaker might blow. They only handle the rated power in the right cab. Skidder will testify to that, he put two expensive speakers into two random cabs and lost one of them because the cab wasn't suitable. The other worked fine. I'm not saying the swap won't work just that you need to get someone to check or it could be £150 wasted. Worth noting that these are up for sale on BC http://basschat.co.uk/topic/287056-celestion-bn10-neo-speakers/

I doubt if an A string would sound fine and an E string not because of a blown speaker. You could try putting some music through it from an iPod at a decent volume and see how it sounds, that will be more revealing than just bass. Damaged but working speakers often make a scratching sound when the coil rubs against the magnet gap. The trick is to push the cone backwards a couple of mm whilst listening for any undue noises. To do that use a cup or wide rimmed glass centred in the cone so that you can push the cone evenly without twisting it side to side. I think it's going to be OK though. good luck.

Don't they make all our PA and bass gear in Italy? RCF, Markbass.... I'd have thought there wouldn't be too great a problem hiring gear there.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896'] Just to clarify, the HPF on the first six channels on the XR684 is set at 80Hz - so that will take a whole world of hurt of your tops.[/quote] Spot on. Keeps all the subsonic crap picked up by the stage mics out of the mains and really protects them from over excursion and you won't need or hear the sub 80Hz stuff anyway. [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896']The monitor send is full range and if you have a powered sub, chances are it will have a crossover on it anyway. This means your sub will take care of typically everything sub 100hz.[/quote] My apologies, that's right about the HPF filter, I took a brief look at the manual and hadn't spotted that it works on the bus (all the first six channels at once) rather than on each input channel. It's an unusual arrangement but I should have spotted it. [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896']Running the sub off the monitor is only like running a sub off an aux and is far from unusual in the pro world. Just because it's not usual in a pub band doesn't mean it's not a viable solution - in fact, in pro PA it's the preferable solution. By having control of the monitor send you explicitly keep vocals out of the subs which is infinitely more useful at keeping low end rumble out of the subs than running crossovers. (Better that nothing unwanted be present feeding into the subs that doesn't have to be right?) [/quote] Yeah I had thought of inputting something about Aux Fed Subs but given the nature of the question decided it was possibly overkill. For those who don't know it is a well tried and tested method of running a PA. To get the best out of it as a system you kind of need to understand a bit about sound and (for me) a separate mix for the subs and mains. For anyone interested in Aux Fed Subs this is an interesting article [url="http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/a_detailed_explanation_of_the_aux_fed_subwoofer_technique/"]http://www.prosoundw...ofer_technique/[/url] I think the OP is moving towards building up a decent PA (those Peavey mains aren't great) so that's a good decision but he could try what you've been suggesting all along.

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1467699165' post='3085379'] Just a thought: It's your system and your money, but the whole point of subs is to take the extreme bottom end away from the tops. If you just plumb your sub into the Aux out then you're not doing that (and hence are losing the whole reason for having it at all); and unless you set the system up very carefully you could get phase cancellation as well (which will have the net result of actually losing deep bass output instead of enhancing it). Do you want the sub to do the job it's there to do, or do you just want to be able to tell people you have a sub in your system? [/quote] This is right. Essentially there is little point in sending the full range signal to the tops and the bins other than to get a 'disco bass' effect. With all the bass going to the tops they are still going to overload at modest levels and at that point turning the subs up will only end up giving you an artificial sounding response curve. you can't use the 80Hz filters either as you would need an unfiltered signal to the bins which you cannot do with your mixer. You need a crossover somewhere in the system. Either buy a crossover, look for a mixer with a crossover to a sub built in, look for an active sub with a stereo crossover built in or buy an amp with a crossover built in.

Great outcome, I suspect if you re ran this the Rumble 500 would probably be the most recommended solution.

[quote name='mingsta' timestamp='1467579858' post='3084697'] I'm in a cover's band so it's pretty robotic...learn new songs...rehearse...perform. The payback is the gigging and being in a tight, well drilled unit. If there's a quiet spot then I'll have a break for a few weeks and not play, but always mindful that you need to be fit enough to play for 2-3 hours and I'll do plenty of exercises in the lead up to the next batch of rehearsals/gigs. [/quote] This about sums it up for me. I still regard myself as a beginner but have been gigging more or less from the start. The need to be on top of new material means a real treadmill of learning song after song, and given bands only lasting a couple of years there's plenty of that. I keep promising myself I'll do some structured practice and develop my music theory but the need to learn next weeks songs always gets in the way. I know this is probably short sighted but I also know it's a shambles when the bassist doesn't have the song down. If I ease up in a break between gigs then a 2-3 hour set is bloody hard on stamina for fingers. Inevitably that always seems to come on a double gig weekend. So I practice pretty much every day, usually at least an hour. On the other hand I get really fed up turning up to rehearsals when other band members haven't practised. It just seems disrespectful to other band members and to any potential audience. Even with musicians way better than me a lack of practice shows.

The list is from his 'students' set lists I believe. I had to look up Pride and Joy and a bit surprised at Green River but he charges in dollars so I guess most of his input is from the USA. It'd be interesting to look at a similar list from say Lemonrock. I suspect at least five of the above would make it.

There's no doubt that with a decent PA and sound engineer pre everything will make your band sound better. It's a long time since I mixed for another band but I always tried to speak to the musicians about the sound they wanted. the best gigs were always with bands who knew what they wanted but were prepared to talk things through. I'd always want that discussion so it's always worth trying to cultivate the engineer, who is on your side after all. However as an engineer turned bassist I know not all PA's or techs are equal so I try to cover all bases. I'm happy to go direct but I also take and use some sort of rig on stage so I can guarantee hearing myself as a minimum. I'll use DI if asked and if the on stage monitoring is good then I'll happily turn my own monitor off. I'd also look to have a pre and possibly my own DI with me until I know what is going on. That way I'm covered whatever the outcome. If you know a tech well then you can leave everything at home of course.

You aren't going to get a straight answer to this because the straight answer is; it depends. Wood expands and softens when wet. Ultimately this is down to changes in the inter molecular forces which 'stick' the wood fibres together. How much depends upon so many factors it would be hard to predict which piece of wood would expand the most. It varies between species and also between different trees and different parts of the same tree. My guess would be that some bits of rosewood would change more than some bits of maple and some less for example. Strings and truss rods are going to be more or less unaffected by moisture but both expand when heated so a change in temperature is going to have a separate effect to the humidity changes, and that will take effect a lot more quickly than a humidity change. It takes weeks for timber to become seasoned when you use it in a different room and I store timber for months before I use it in critical situations. I suspect most of what makes your bass go out of tune when moving from room to room is down to temperature rather than humidity.Wood changes a lot but slowly. The best thing practically of course is to keep any instrument away from damp and store them in the best cool dry space you can find.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1467139995' post='3081484'] (The LM3 is 500W at 4 ohm) Watts sort of matter, but sort of don't. The loudness of your system depends on many factors, not just the watts. We're used to seeing just watts quoted and we tend to think 'whoa, that is 300W more powerful, it must be a hell of a lot louder' when in reality it often isn't that much louder. It soon becomes clear if you try it for yourself. I found out the hard and expensive way [/quote]This. Watts matter, if they didn't then your amp would produce the same volume wherever you set the volume control. There is a direct relationship between sound levels and wattage. Sound levels increase with the logarithm of power levels, They double with a tenfold increase in power. Doubling your speakers gives a 3dB increase because the power increases and 3dB due to the improved efficiency of using two cones. A single 12 is about the point where it can work on its own with a rock band. It will produce about 120dB across the frequency range at 1m from the cab. Using a quality driver like Barefaced will ensure that it will do this at the lower frequencies you need which cheaA single 12 per speakers generally struggle with. Without getting too technical that means with a bit of compression you can probably play at 100dB average giving you a 40dB dynamic range. The measurements I've seen for a rock drummer are about 103dB at their ears, enough to damage their hearing after about an hours exposure! But this means you'll be at just about their volume with a single 12. Two identical 12's and an amp with a decent power supply will give you a peak of 126dB and an average level of 106dB@ 1m. Taking you just above the volume of the drummer. I suppose what this is saying is what we all know, A single 12 should be enough at a practice or small to medium gig, above that and two will do nicely. Start saving for a second speaker.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1467146680' post='3081544'] ... or would be, but for their enormous modesty. [/quote]Thanks, I haven't smiled since the Brexit result

Chris has it all right, I'm going to say something similar but from a slightly different angle. Your bass amplification is going to be highly coloured. It is designed to make the bass sound good. For most people and most manufacturers that meand the frequency response is a bumpy hillside. Deep bass below 80Hz is rolled off and there is usually a bump in ooutput from the speakers to warm up the sound in the 100-150 Hz upper bass region. Most speakers will also have a bit of a peak at the 1000Hz point up to 3000Hz where the sound starts to fall away. That helps them cut through and then cuts out the string noise and so on that most of us don't want. That's the sound we all think of as 'clean'! Then we add our own eq. The PA is designed to be genuinely flat so to get the same sound as your rig then you need to model the amp/speaker you are using. You need to download a plug in which will model an amp for the X18, alternatively you could use the inbuilt eq to do it yourself, but there are plenty of plug ins that will model most well known speakers and amps. My preference though is to have a bass light sound on stage which cuts out the mush you and your band are working in )and lets you crank your amp if you wish). Then have a mirror image bass heavy, top light sound from the PA to give a balanced tone overall. Don't overdo it though as some people are only going to hear the PA tone.

the problem with all isobarics is that you are carrying two speakers, but only hearing the sound from one. If you loved the sound from the Orange then it's an option but based on taste rather than anything else.

[quote name='bigjimmyc' timestamp='1464881805' post='3063491'] Cheers for all the input. I suppose I was hoping for a "practical" solution rather than go buy another pedal (or new pickups which would be even more expensive!). Just wondering though, how best to calibrate the solution? I'm guessing it's by ear for most of us, but is there a better way? [/quote] No, our ears are sensitive to some frequencies more than others so meters will give a false picture of how loud things sound.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1466663264' post='3077603'] Bent Bit of Tim. I never noticed a difference in sound or sustain when I changed from a high mass to a bbot. [/quote]Bent Bit Of Ti[b]m [/b] Bent Bit Of Tim is quite a disturbing image

Hope you find what you are looking for, have fun trying them out.

[quote name='rmorris' timestamp='1466416113' post='3075582'] Doesn't seem likely that a capacitor (presumably in the tone control components) would cause a periodic click. Easy enough to check by disconnecting. Last time I (well a guitarist) had something like this it turned out to be caused by something like a Sky Box or DVD player in a downstairs room. If it were every second I'd say it was your watch - took me ages to realise that when I had the problem with single coil strat type pickups. Doh ! [/quote] Yeah it occurred to me it might be radio pickup. Old corroded connections often act as diodes and single coils make great aerials.

OK I hope everyone is calm now. If by uncoloured you mean that you want to get as close as possible to the sound your bass is putting out at the jack socket, with nothing added or taking away then taking the signal from that point is really the only way. Wanting to hear that in your room is perfectly sensible too. The best way of doing that would be to split your signal at that point using a DI sending one signal to the recording and the other half to a PA speaker of floor monitor, the only system really designed to give you a flat response. even the highest quality PA will add distortion and subtract information as will any mic and so will room acoustics. Any bass amp with tone controls is going to colour the sound and any bass speaker will almost certainly have had some optimisation for bass. Even a PA speaker (true of any speaker) is an engineered compromise so 'uncoloured' is a relative term. If you go this route you are guaranteed as uncoloured as you can get for your recording and the demands you are placing on your bass amp/monitor become practical considerations. You can probably try an active PA speaker easily enough as any muso mates will probably have one. If this advice isn't what you wanted to hear then don't get angry, it is well meant, I think it is accurate and you are free to ignore advice you don't like.

You don't describe the noise so it is hard to make any diagnosis. There aren't many components there to replace, and they are all inexpensive, so economically it might be quicker and cheaper to replace the lot and have confidence in the bass from then on rather than to replace things piecemeal. If one pot has corrosion in it because of the storage conditions then the others are likely to be not much better. If you wanted to check the pup's before you do this then use the method Rich suggested first.