Phil Starr

[quote name='redbandit599' timestamp='1479121997' post='3174033'] Cheers - yes, I suppose I'm trying the pick the 'new breed' of songs that are post this period - don't get me wrong this stuff is all good solid pub rock material. [/quote]Yeah that is a bit more problematic for the average pub band. There's been a gradual disappearance of guitar sounds but more importantly an increase in the places people find their music, so few songs achieve the universality of the charts of twenty years ago. There are plenty of great songs though, they just need a bit of work on them to get them to become pub rock songs. Crazy, Gnarls Barkley. Sing, Ed Sheeran, Ho Hey, Wake Me Up all good crowd pleasers you could rock up, we also do Counting Stars, Pompeii which go OK if you work on the vocals. Lots of rocked up Lady Gaga too. When we looked for stuff to rock up recently all the songs we ended up with were written by one man Max Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin who comes from a rock background so many of his songs easily reverse engineer into rock songs. Good luck with your guitarists though, a lot of modern pop is great for the rhythm section but hated by six stringers.

All of the above is spot on, the only addition I can make is to eq your on stage monitors appropriately. If you are having these problems then I assume most of what the audience hears of your bass is coming from the PA? If this is the case then you can afford to roll the bass on your backline down quite a lot and boost the mids and highs. Then what you hear should be back to the sort of sound you want to hear, If that makes your FOH sound too toppy then you can cut a little of the mid/highs on your PA eq. Then take advantage of the directional nature of higher frequencies by pointing your cabs straight at your ears, either by raising the cab or tilting it back.

Bohemian like you Monster the Automatic Golden Touch Razorlight Gold On The Ceiling Black Keys Local Boy Stereophonics Take Me Our Franz Ferdinand Loads by the Killers, Kaiser Chiefs, Chilli Peppers, Stereophonics (Greenday, Manics,Blur and Oasis if you stretch back to the 90's) Actually the Britpop/Indie period in the 90's, 00's was a bit of a golden era for us covers bands.

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1479104002' post='3173889'] The peavey 410s use (or used to use anyway) the "sheffield" driver which is very low excursion by modern standards although probably plenty for with 4 of them for most real world applications. If it were possibly to cheaply produce a lightweight cab with decently high efficiency, very high power handling and good bass extension then one has to wonder why someone isn't doing it already. [/quote] just a quick look at what a manufacturer would face in trying to make an affordable lightweight 4x10. Just a quick comparison the Eminence Beta10 weighs in at 3kg and the Deltalite at 2kg. Xmax is 3mm v's 4.2mm. The cost is £463 for four Deltalites and £237 for the Betas. The magnet on the Beta weighs 34oz v's 7ox for the deltalite. Presumably using a cheaper and lighter pressed chassis on the Deltalite could bring the weight down a bit more, about 0.75 of a kg per speaker. Crucially because of the more powerful neo magnet in the Deltalite you could make a smaller cab for a similar bass performance saving more weight on top of the 4kg you'd save on the speakers and making the cab more manoeuvrable. Other manufacturers would face the same economics so roughly you'd expect to pay double the price for lightweight drivers and would save 6-10kg in weight.

Why write a song at all? If you have something to say and you want others to hear it then deliberately challenging them with unusual sounds makes no sense. Most music is about shared experiences, ideas, or just good old entertainment. It's for the many not the few. If you want to have a musical conversation limited to other musicians then fine, they may well get what you are saying but it is going to be music about music only. Nothing wrong with that, but not for me thanks. Looked at another way you have 8 notes in your scale, 2,3,4,5......16 beats to the bar, rests, key changes, verse, chorus pre-chorus, bridge, coda, fills, turnarounds, chord inversions...... That all gives you a few lifetimes of non-repetition even with four chords. For me modern classical music has lost it's way a little in comparison, the urge to try the new and different means a lot of more recent 'serious' music comes across as academic exercise and possibly elitist. Lacking mass appeal it has ossified, lacking the freshness of popular music even though the palette is more limited. The back catalogue is pretty good though.

My battery went flat the other day and I didn't notice until I tried to adjust the tone controls. Replacing the battery there was a clear difference in tone but nothing so huge you couldn't happily gig without the audience noticing. There's definitely something wrong here.

If you are asking if it is completely safe under all conditions then the answer is no. Could you operate this pairing safely, then yes. Unless you are going to drive the amp consistently into distortion I'd doubt you'd burn it out but if you use a fiver, lots of fx or boost the bass then you could get past the excursion limits. One thing that would help might be a thumpinator which filters subsonics.

It's really hard to diagnose a fault from this distance. Language isn't a good way to describe odd sounds. As above check all round that nothing inside the cab is touching the speaker. Then have a good look at the cone itself to see if anything has come unstuck or if there are any small tears.

I've had a brief look at the Eminence kappa on winisd. the frequency response is probably ok in that cab but handling at 80 Hz is only about 40W, so your going to find it has a short life in that cab. The trouble is excursion with the kappa. On a broader note you won't find a cheap driver that works there. Without a big wedge of air in the cab to tame the driver you need a speaker with a big and therefore expensive driver. It'd be cheaper to look at another cab No point in buying a £200 driver for a cheap cab. All you need to fit a 12" driver is a rectangle of ply the size of your baffle (front panel of the cab) B7Q will cut that for you. Fit the speaker to that and screw the board onto the front of the cab. If you cant cut the hole find a carpenter who will cut a round hole for the speaker they will probably only charge a few quid to do that.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/sunn-215s-speaker-identification.827206/ look at post 10. The S indicated Sunn's own drivers. It wouldn't be difficult to reverse engineer the cab to find a good match, I don't suppose there was anything very special about the drivers. Peavey Black Widows would be a good cheap option if a bit heavy. You could buy old Peavey cabs and junk the cab if you wanted or there are a few about on eBay. Ideally go for the ones with the metal domes which is what Peavey fitted in their own 2x15 which have a little more sparkle than the other BW models.

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1478680527' post='3170785'] This is key to me. I'm in two bands at the moment. I play mostly fretless in one, with tight precise drum sound, acoustic guitar, piano and not much distortion on the electric guitar. Here I need a clean and clear sound. The other band has two incredibly powerful female singers, fiddle, organ, furious hand percussion (no kit) and a very saturated heavy guitar sound. They were very specific about wanting 'rock' bass - and that means grit. A Stingray and a slightly overdriven preamp got the thumbs up. The BassDirect pitch was that if you need to adjust your tone on the amp away from flat, you have the wrong bass. The sound I was hearing from a MarkBass 2 x 12 setup was extremely HiFi - like plugging straight into a desk. This is not what I had in mind at all. I want to preserve the character of the bass, but most of the amps I've liked in the past have definitely coloured the sound in some pleasing way. The best live sound I've ever had (for my taste) was with Ampeg - in no way a neutral sound - and the biggest surprise was how much impact an old PortaFlex could have. It was a small cellar bar, but I wasn't mic-ed up. The amp's owner - who was standing right at the back of the room for the whole show - had never heard it from the audience's viewpoint commented after the show on how clear and full it had sounded (he'd been going through a bit of buyers remorse, thinking he should have got something bigger). I could hear - and feel - every note too. This may be heretical, but I think that the trend for ultra compact gear has parallels in the HiFi world. The principal design consideration for domestic loudspeakers is footprint, the the sound is engineered to that constraint. People don't want big boxes in their homes. OTOH, I still use huge 1970s Tannoy studio monitors with 15" coaxial drivers, weighing 50 Kg each. I understand why not everyone wants to lug an SVT around, but I'm pretty sure that even a Mini can transport a 15 and 2 x 10. I'm looking at Hartke gear as a probable route (I used it once in the past and it did the job fine). Single 2 x 10 cab for practice room and add a 15 for live. It won't break the bank either. [/quote] OK that post is a bit of a game changer. You know what you like and you are already playing in two bands. There's nothing wrong with Hartke (I've a HA3500 as well as the MB Tube) or go for the Portaflex if you like that. You are absolutely right to choose on the basis of how it sounds. The lightweight gear thing isn't just fashion though, it's changing technology. Speakers use different construction/materials meaning they can handle hundreds of watts rather than the tens of years gone by and the price of amplifier watts has fallen so it makes sense to carry smaller speaker cabs and a bigger amp for a similar result. The current state of play is that a couple of 12's are about where the sweet spot is without going too esoteric. BTW I built a couple of cabs with the old 15 Tannoy Gold concentrics back in the 70's, lovely things. Glad to see you have a clearer idea of where you are going, good luck.

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1478721625' post='3171243'] That's interesting. So taking what's being said here in the thread. The way NOT to do it is answering small ads. So the access is somewhat limited. I could start a band, but even though I'm 57 I have zero knowledge about running a band. That said, I'm no numpty, so I can imagine a lot of the logistical and marketing stuff. I would also need to invest in a PA and lights etc. The other thing I would need is time - to invest in getting the play-list together with sheets etc to hand out, marketing.... Exactly. [/quote] [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1478681741' post='3170799'] True, others may not agree that what I do is playing bass, but it suits me. I'm trying to get my head round something from "My Fair Lady" right now. I play almost every day and it fits in with my lifestyle as I play for any odd half-hours etc that I get the chance. "Why don't I change to guitar", you might ask? I just prefer the tone of a bass guitar to the twang of the treble-clef. I'm sure I'm not alone, am I? [/quote] Hi, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you do, it's perfectly normal and there are thousands of musicians around the country who just love the experience of playing an instrument and the joy of learning new things. You haven't mentioned your love and knowledge of gear and restorations and tweaking you do (thanks for introducing me to the J-Retro btw) But, there seems to be a a bit of you that hankers after the band experience. I'd say don't let a bad past experience put you off. The biggest plus is also the biggest minus IMO. People are lovely, kind generous and fun, they are also a source of all hassle. Put that to one side and there are still two good reasons for joining a band. Making music with others is fun, joyful even. I was hooked fairly early on, I was almost the age you are now when I started, with half a dozen songs learned I was playing at my third rehearsal with some mates and suddenly I wasn't thinking about the bass any more but playing music. The sound was coming and I was no longer thinking, just playing. Magic. Entertaining others is fun, even if it can also be a little scary at times. The buzz of watching a few hundred people dancing in time with your fingers and their excitement at the end of a gig they've enjoyed. Wow! The thing is you can get the first experience of playing with others without having to join a gigging band. There's plenty of people out there who just enjoy the music making process, getting together with each other to play just for the love of it. I was out last night lending my bass to people with busy lives who meet up for a couple of hours a week to just enjoy playing. They'll do the odd open mic but just the joy of sharing an interest is what they are about. Moving on to a gigging band is a big commitment. There's all the gear for sure but keeping 2 hours worth of music up to gigging standards and compromising your music to suit an audience, never mind the egos..... The biggest problem is your job/lifestyle but I'd say make the effort might be interesting. Don't worry about the small ads thing. I've met lovely people and real ****'s in the same proportions they are in the general population that way. Open mics are a good way of meeting musicians who for whatever reason aren't gigging, and you get to hear before you buy. I've had a lot of joy just working with a singer/guitarist as an informal duo. The bass genuinely adds to what they do and just working with one other person is so easy. You get to talk about the music, you get to try anything and in one case it made the core of a gigging band as it grew. Hope you find what you want, and if that turns out to be what you already have then that is good too.

[quote name='jacko' timestamp='1478696064' post='3170983'] you've said you're playing country because you're audience want to hear it. Why not pander to them even more by playing the original bass line. That's what worked for the song back in the day - no reason at all why it shouldn't work for the song now. [/quote] [quote name='acidbass' timestamp='1478698006' post='3171004'] Try practicing restraint rather than embellishment. A much more useful skill. [/quote] [quote name='casapete' timestamp='1478698935' post='3171019'] Agree with the keeping it simple approach. Sometimes doesn't need to be even root/5th, just root/root!! Lots of skill in not overplaying and thinking about exactly where to put the notes in each bar so as not to lose the groove. I love it.... [/quote] [quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1478701254' post='3171037'] The words "embellish the bass part" and "country music" don't belong in the same universe, I'm afraid. Embellishment in country is for the guitar, steel, fiddle or any of the melody instruments, but NOT the bass player, I'm afraid. Sorry. Just have to play the bag and save the adventurous stuff for another time. [/quote] Sometimes you hate people for being right Actually it's going to be an interesting challenge, I might even have to pay attention to string damping.

[quote name='Surrpaul' timestamp='1478687436' post='3170878'] Cheers guys. All sound advice. I've been playing nearly 20 years and this is the first time in many years I've thought I am out of my comfort zone. [/quote] you've no idea how reassuring this is, I was about to put up a thread about how to play country. I've sat in with a band for a couple of gigs and just been asked by someone to play some country/Americana with his band. I'm finding it really hard, you've got to keep it really simple so there is nowhere to hide. Timing has to be on the nail, you are often playing two to the bar or even one and the chord changes don't seem to fall where I expect them. It's all root fifth, except it isn't and the dominant 7th kills the songs I'm playing. Chromatic runs don't seem to work at all, though scale runs do, but then again not too often. Help Guys I'm lost I'm going to have to listen to a lot of this stuff I think, tough as I'm not that keen but it is going to be an education.

I use the B1ON too as do many people here. I get about a weeks practice out of rechargeables, probably more as i just recharge them once a week and I can't remember them running out other than when I forget to unplug the lead.

You really aren't going to overload the pickup, or move the strings out of the magnetic field. I think the distortion is coming from problems in the gain structure. as the signal passes through your amp it is amplified in stages. at the simplest there'll be an input stage then some sort of tone and volume control which may have their own gain then there will probably be further amplification up to the input to the power amp with probably a further volume control then the power amp. One of your volume controls will probably be labelled gain. You might also have an active bass with its own pre amp and the bass will have a volume control. Each amplification stage will have a point where it overloads, once it overloads and distorts the following stages will simply pass the distortion on. Now if you turn the master volume right up to full and the guitar volume down you'll have a small signal going to the early stages and all the gain right at the power amp. So long as this doesn't overload you won't have any distortion. Now turn the master volume down and the guitar and the earlier volume controls right up and there is a strong possibility you'll have distortion at one of the earlier stages even though you will still be operating at the same volume. Operating the tone controls with boosts will also potentially create overloads. 10db of boost is asking your amp to produce a lot more voltage. The problem is that if you turn the master volume up full it will amplify all the electronic noise in the amp, leads and pickup noise (if the guitar is turned up full) I'd check the batteries if I was operating an active bass. A flat battery will limit the maximum voltage a bass can produce. I'd turn the volume on the bass up to 3/4 and check on an active bass that I didn't have too much bass boost. Turn the master volume down so you are operating at a low volume. You should be able to get an undistorted sound however hard you play. If you get distortion you may need to turn the pre-amp volume/gain down a little. If you can't get a clean sound then there is something else going on. If you can't get clean you can try turning down the bass even more. Once you get a clean sound at this level you can turn up the master volume and you should get the same clean sound until you meet the amps maximum volume. Now if you want a little distortion you can turn up the gain and the master down until the distortion is how you want it.

I'm jealous, I've been in a couple of female fronted rock bands but the old lags on guitar were too stuck in their ways to learn a new song. and refused to listen to anything with a girl singer post 1975. There was a fabulous version of I kissed a Girl from Jools Holland 2008 where the session guys really rocked it up but Youtube have deleted it. It brought the house down for us. This was a great one for us, guitard excepted, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txBfhpm1jI0 this would probably work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHBxJCq99jA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INKwtDSC2gY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOgSdc8OAI What's up never failed us, Mercy is the female fronted Mustang Sally if you need a banker. There's a few Eurythmics. Black Velvet, Piece of My Heart. Loads of Fleetwood Mac. Weak As I Am (Skunk Anansie) worked well. Anything AC/DC does work well with a female vocalist. There's a mashup of Rolling in the Deep you could do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dkN_84EGj0 There's actually too much to choose from, we've no idea of your singers range or how closely you want to do 80's/90's stuff.

Apologies yet again, life keeps getting in the way. There's some good drawings here which should help people build the cabs and a couple of people have already had a go and seem happy with the results. I really will get round to a decent step by step guide and [b]mikel[/b] if you want to start then I'm happy to talk you through any problems. Rather than make this thread any longer post up a thread in the build diaries and other people can follow your progress. The fee is to post a review of your speaker once it is finished Good luck

Yep good idea to tell us where you are, there are shops which still demo and people who will share their expertise and give a go on their rigs. Firstly always go for the sound, no try, no buy. We all have different tastes and play different styles of music. I'd go lightweight unless you are looking to do this on the cheap. People generally are replacing their old heavy gear and the used prices for big heavy cabs and amps has fallen. Certainly don't buy heavyweight gear new as it will lose value the moment you swipe the credit card. I'd say go for a couple of 1x12" cabs as your starting point. A single 12 so long as you aren't looking at bargain basement will keep up with a drummer, so your practice rig is a single speaker and your amp. then if you are playing at a bigger venue you can take the second speaker, that should take you louder than the drums so if you play stadiums then they'd be miked up and so would you. A single 12 is usually a one handed carry and probably the smallest cab so will fit easily into your mini. Slightly larger a 1x15 or 2x10 will also be a good basis for a modular two cab flexible rig if size and weight are not a problem. 1x12's are pretty popular now so you have a wide range to choose from and should be able to find ones whose sound you like. I reckon to go for a lightweight amp with about 300W, preferably into 8ohms unless you don't mind the extra weight. I went for the Little Mark Tube but there are loads to choose from and we all have our favourites. The biggest thing though is budget, I've essentially recommended a £1000 rig if you bought new. You'd better tell us what you want to spend before we ask you to remortgage

I'm not really surprised at any of this. Alex has always been spot on and totally honest with his posts here, and in his BGM articles but he makes his living by selling speakers and has to indulge in advertising talk on his website. Barefaced sell very well engineered cabs with great drivers, but there is no magic speaker genie. The 'sound ' of a cab is down to taste and what suits upon the music you play. The independents have pioneered lightweight high excursion speakers, the big boys manufacturing in China were bound to catch up with 'me too' products. My guess, and I'd love someone to provide me with both cabs to dissect, is that the biggest differences are in the bracing of the cabs, which you'd probably only notice in critical applications and in excursion which you'd only notice if you attempt to drive very high power levels at very low frequencies, and most of us won't so long as we have enough speakers. Two good twelves should have enough for 95% of us. You really need to be careful with these power specs. The limiting factor for power dissipation is how quickly the heat can be removed from the coil. Most of this is transferred via the magnets and tiny neo magnets need lots of fins to compete with ceramic magnets. Most designs also use the air movement around the coil to ventilate heat away but this has its limits too. Ultimately around 350W is the most a 12" speaker can dissipate, whatever the manufacturers claim. Anything much higher is always a peak figure. In any case the real limiting figure is usually excursion, There aren't many speakers I've modelled over the years that aren't excursion limited down to 200W or usually less in the lower octaves somewhere, and all of them will fail if you put 400W of 33Hz through them continuously, not that you ever would. There's no such thing as a 700W continuous 12" speaker.

It's an interesting question. If you mean can I play any song from our set without making a mistake so long as no-one else cocks up then yes I can. Myself and drums are the only ones who play without notes which vary from music stands to crib notes on the floor. the ones with notes or sheet music are the ones who cock up most. And yes, music stands are bloody unprofessional. Could i play them solo, well it depends upon the song, at initial rehearsals I could tell you how many bars/song structures, anything we've taken to the recording studio I could probably play to a click track because I learned that at the time. Most of our songs I would guess I need the cues from the rest of the band. For the rest I think I rely upon muscle memory more than anything conscious, so that I must remember the song as a whole rather than broken down. Whichever way you remember your music there has to be one constant, it's better when you practice.

There are lots of ideas above for you to try and I'd suggest actually trying them to see if you can find that elusive sound you hear in your head. Seriously, what we are all doing here is pretty much a series of thought experiments. you'd be better off just trying things out in actual experiments Mixing two entirely different speakers doesn't give easily predictable results as neither of them will have a flat frequency response. Instead they have some frequencies they emphasize and some they only do weakly. If you mixed two speakers where the peaks coincide they will jump out at you when you play them, if the troughs coincide then they'll be even weaker, more usually they won't line up and you lose a lot of the character of both speakers. Another thing is in BFM's earlier post "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]It's not what they're missing, it's what they have" [size=4]By adding the bass back in with bass speakers you shift the balance of the sound and the top end will be masked a little, at least subjectively. You could lose the clarity you seek simply by adding in bass. That brings us to the final problem, we don't really have a great set of words to describe our subjective experience of sounds. Look at previous debates about 'heft' I for one am convinced we weren't all talking about the same thing. You've clearly heard something you like and you want to add it to your sound. The answer to this is to try stuff out, we can point you into the right direction technically but in the end there aren't sets of equations to guide you.[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]To answer your question directly. I'd use an electronic crossover first. You can then sweep the crossover frequency up and down until you find the one that works best, once you've done that you can then go away and build a passive crossover for that frequency. If all you really want is the deep bass that would damage the guitar speakers but will fill out the sound you could just crossover at 100-150Hz ie just use a sub not a bass speaker, or use the bass speaker as a sub. [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'd start off just running the bass gear you have with the guitar gear you have and tweak the eq on both. That on it's own will keep you busy for a while with all sorts of options. Then try the same thing using an active crossover which you can borrow from someone's PA which will give you a whole range of other sounds. Then you'll know which sounds best to you and not be guessing.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Go on, it'll be fun [/font][/color]

Playing at the less accomplished end of the scale myself I've been in bands that make most of the mistakes. Good or bad I tend to be the one to try to pull the band together when somone wanders of time. I think that sitting in the pocket as most of us do we are oten the only ones listening to all of the rest of the band. 9/10 times keeping time is the best thing to do. Something like a missed ending to a drum fill for example. If you and Mr drums skip a beat then the rest o the band are going to be thrown so don't go there, but thereare going to be times when one of the other band members goes off time with a drum mistake and I'd go with them even if it meant breaking time. I'd almost never not go with the vocals though, IMO that just sounds awful. Console yourself that the audience rarely notice that sort of mistake. Mostly I find that you and a drummer grow to learn each others ways and it becomes second nature.

it's pretty much true of most set ups that anything that boosts bass at audible frequencies will also boost inaudible subsonics as well. Subsonics at any real volume will undo any speaker in a ported cab. Unless you are absolutely confident of the operating conditions of your speaker it is worth looking at something (a Thumpinator) which will filter out the subsonics. Go on the Eminence website and look at their own designs, almost all of them will specify a high pass filter if you want to use a speaker with high power bass. That's not special to Eminence, just that they tell you about it. The Beta 12 specified as 250w is limited to just 100W/150W for bass unless you use a high pass filter http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_12A-2_cab.pdf If you want to use bass boost or boosting fx then you need a filter or lots of speakers to be safe.