Phil Starr

You are going to struggle to get active monitors for £100 outside of Peavey, Laney and Carlsboro. A lot of the cheap Chinese unbranded stuff will struggle with handling a decent kick drum sound. If you already have a spare PA amp then look out for a set of Yamaha club series monitors which are cheap, reliable, loud and sound pretty good. I'm with Bill in wanting to separate the vocal monitor from the drum monitor. If the drums need to be loud enough for the whole band to hear on stage then your vocalist is going to struggle to hear themselves through the same speaker.

I've gone out as a duo with just guitar and bass, doing covers. There are songs that work and some that don't we try and avoid the ones that don't. In a way it is more fun, you have to be creative with arrangements and you have plenty to do in every song if you want to keep it interesting for the audience. That said we are looking to add a small kick drum and a pedal operated tambourine fairly soon, but percussion doesn't always have to be a kit. We've also met a duo who went out with a miniature kit and guitar. That worked really well too and the mini kit didn't take up too much space neither was it too loud. More to the point there is a whole circuit out there that a full blooded band can't play. The venues are too small and/or a band are too loud. Even if the fee is smaller your cut is usually bigger and you aren't carting huge amounts of gear so set up and knock down are quick.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1449346226' post='2922841'] I'm about as old as any of you, and, back then (I'm a bit passed it, now... ) often would set up a concert, free entry or not, and had a great time, every time. I can honestly say that I've never, in my long career, with my own groups or working with our eldest's formation, ever been 'screwed'. I don't think I'm just lucky, nor more gullible. I [i]do [/i]think there's some ordinary, decent folks out there who can be trusted (with a bit of common sense, of course...); not [i]everyone [/i]is a charlatan. I do despair of some here, I really do. If I was a bit more compassionate, I'd feel sorry for some. [/quote] I'm with Dad here, and I'm probably older than him. I used to promote everything from local band multi headers to free festivals. I can honestly say the only time I made a profit was for charity events, mainly I made a small loss financially but was rewarded by some great friends, fantastic experiences and some terrific music. One of the bands that played for free were Traffic who were huge at the time and the 101'ers soon to become the Clash. Many bands have been there, if it feels right and you can afford it then do it and have fun. Once you start getting repeat bookings from venues you can start being fussy but music in the UK has always been pretty cooperative.

Thanks guys, I think to be fair I'm going to go back and see who offered to do what and then pm everyone. I don't remember who offered first and I don't want to upset anyone who has volunteered. I just have to do the sketches and put the dimensions on them. No gigs this weekend and only one Christmas song to run through so shouldn't be too busy. Jim Lea anyone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A8KT365wlA

you could always go Fender. American Deluxe.

As soon as I can I'm getting someone to do some CAD drawings. I'll then re-post with some instructions and a series of photo's of the build. I'll do this as a new thread and let everyone know on here when it is done.

The Faital works quite well in a 50l cab tuned to 40Hz which is about the size of the Mark Bass NY 151. you'll lose about 5dB at 40 Hz and get about an extra 1db at 110Hz. Pretty much what you expected I think. Coincidentally the speaker would just fit in the 112 cab we have designed for the Beyma SM212 and if you use the 26cm ports it will tune to 40Hz. I'd adapt that cab by making it a couple of cm wider just to fit the 15" driver a bit more comfortably and then cut the depth by 1.5cm so the volume stays the same, but you could just squeeze the Faital in. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary/

Tuff Cab goes a long way, I've used just under a litre to cover two cabs with two coats each. You need most for the first coat, as with most paints on an absorbent surface. I reckon you should just about be able to get three coats out of a litre but there won't be a great deal left for touching up scratches. I'm impressed really, I've always used vinyl up to now. Tuff cab is a whole lot easier, seems to last pretty well and looks a whole lot better than the matt black I used to use for big PA cabs.

Nothing wrong with screws and glue, whatever your standard of workmanship. If you go to 6V6's build you'll see he was a very organised and careful builder. My cabs are all screwed and glued but screwed from the inside which makes finishing easier, especially if you are using Toughcab paint which doesn't stick to some fillers very well. I did consider making a modification to the slot port which would have made the build simpler but if you can cut the holes for the pipes then the whole build is so easy it became a no brainer.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1448917178' post='2919217'] From talking to other musicians especially those over 40 it seems the drive to gig has diminished for many. Guys have other things going on in the lives, the business is tougher to get for most bands. Many of the ads I saw read like this; [i]"Bass player wanted, we are all over 40. We play classic rock. We rehearse once a week and gig once a month."[/i] I'm sure some will challenge my opinion. To me this is not really a band, but more of a "Boys Night Out". A chance to get the bass out again and get out of the house for a little "me" time. Not sure what you guys think about this. Take it any direction you want. Blue [/quote] [quote name='blue' timestamp='1448931521' post='2919419'] "Then why are you dismissing people for being in bands that you (dismissively in my opinion) describe as 'Boys Night's Out'. I'm not dismissing it, what I was looking for was discussion on the overall decline in live rock probably at the bar band level. Blue [/quote] You can see why you were misunderstood, I think describing another's band as "boy's night out" sounds dismissive even if it isn't meant to be. It may be something lost in translation, in the UK almost all our most cutting insults are understatements and it was you who introduced the term. To my British eyes it did look like you were looking down on people who gig less than you. Anyway, decline in live rock in bar bands. I think your ad is a good summary. [i]"Bass player wanted, we are all over 40. We play classic rock. We rehearse once a week and gig once a month."[/i] We get a load of these over here, though many specify once a week or even more. I suppose my heart sinks a little when I see these, especially if you add the words 'classic rock'. To me it is the music of the past, admittedly a good past, and my past but it is the music of the 60's and 70's, the music of the over 40's. In my teenage years the pubs were full of 50 year olds playing Trad Jazz, the same 20 songs played by most of the bands. Good musicians often, and good fun but people playing 40 year old music with the odd new song played in the style of the late 1920's. We'd moved on through the Beatles and on to Zeppelin and Hendrix and a burst of creativity. Good fun but out of touch. Now we see the 50+'s me included playing the 40 year old music of their youth wondering why more people don't come to see them. Don't get me wrong there is still an audience out there and people still have a great time but it is inevitably a diminishing audience. Why would you expect that not to be the case? Even on a personal level this 63 year old wants to see something a bit different when I get to go out. If a band advertises itself as classic rock they will have 20 other bands playing similar sets within a 20 mile radius. I've heard enough of them, so I cross those off the list and look for something a bit different. In my band I wish we'd learn newer songs with different musical challenges, but that's just me and I love the people I play with. We put on a good show with lot's of commitment and an hour spent in their company is an hour well spent.

One last post tonight, if you go back to post #479 you'll remember Stevie scaring me with a very significant peak at around 700Hz in the slot ported cab. We swapped drivers and it was definitely the cab. Well the peak is tamed pretty much with wadding especially on the top edge of the port but I'm going to make a new baffle and move the speaker off centre which I think will help further. I'm happy we know what is going on there and have a solution. However I'm now pretty happy with the basic design of a 18mm cab with four pipe ports tuned to 50Hz so the slot port won't be a problem as we won't be recommending it. The availability of cheap hole saws means cutting the holes for the ports will be easier than forming the slot which was the only reason I went that direction. I found the wooden slot was tricky to form if you don't have plenty of clamps to hand.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448895807' post='2918936'] I have a question about tube ports and their lengths. Am I right in assuming that standard downpipe means the 68mm stuff? I've noticed that winISD and a couple of online calculators come up with quite different lengths than the ones used in the prototype cab, quoted below. The exact figure varies depending on the end correction selected (I used "one end flanged"), but WinISD is suggesting a length of 298mm for a 50Hz tuning in 50l, rather than 190mm. That's with four 68mm diameter ports. I'm trying to figure out if I've missed something in the process. [/quote] You aren't going mad, first of all the pipes internal diameter is 64mm the outside is 68mm. secondly it depends how you enter the parameters into winISD as sometimes the manufacturers don't always use the same techniques for measuring as are assumed by win ISD. Then the box isn't exactly 50l as I built it oversized to allow for the volume of bracing the ports and speaker and any modifications I would make as the design developed, I didn't use all the extra volume I allowed. We also found two sets of data for the SM212 out there and then took our own measurements of the basic parameters which differed slightly from those published. If you go back to post #291 you'll see we actually measured the tuning of the cabs and the port dimensions are measured from the cabs we tested. Well spotted though, and I had to double check all this so you are keeping me on my toes Ultimately that's why you try and build prototypes and test them.

A couple more suggestions. I had the same problem with my HA3500 of the dodgy era. There are a number of fairly big electrolytic capacitors in the power supply circuit to the pre amp stages that are just soldered to the circuit board and are unsupported. Sure enough the joints had gon on one and the track was being pulled away from the board with a couple of others. I just resoldered them and pushed the leadouts through far enough for them to rest on the board. You could use some neutral cure silicone as well for support. To find most intermittent faults get a freezing spray. by spraying individual components the contraction will often recreate the fault or temporarily cure it as the components and joints contract suddenly. Good luck, always worth saving an old Hartke

I rather think the technical 'faults' of the Ampeg cab are what makes it sound great to a lot of people. All that beaming of upper frequencies/comb filtering/mid bass peakiness/cone break up/lack of true deep bass gives you a speaker that delivers sound to the bassist if they are in line but gives a sound that is warm and sits nicely in the mix to the audience. Lot's of cheap speakers gives you high efficiency so the amps don't work too hard and all that cone area means you aren't going to run out of cone excursion. You live in Surrey and like Barefaced so why not take a trip down to Brighton with your SVT and see if they can give you a sound you like as much as the fridge before you start parting with any money.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448631941' post='2916994'] That's something I've often wondered about in the interminable valve vs SS discussions that musicians often enjoy. While I understand that with the right voicing, compression and perhaps a touch of soft clipping, a well designed 100 watt solid state amp [i]could[/i] perform in the way we'd expect a 100 watt valve amp to perform, I'm not certain how often this is actually achieved in practice, especially at the more modest end of the market. [/quote]I guess it wouldn't make much sense in one way, the cost would be in the design and development so you wouldn't then build a budget amp that way, and since extra watts cost so little in SS designs you might as well have them. With switch mode power supplies there isn't any weight saving by going low powered either. There's lots of other differences between the two technologies as well, so compression alone won't give you a valve sound. However digital modelling techniques are getting better and cheaper all the time so there will be a time when we won't be able to tell the difference. Listening to some of the plug-ins studios use we are pretty nearly there probably. I'd say the AER amps do a pretty good 'valve' sound but they aren't cheap. The other thing that occurs to me is that a really good valve amp and a really good SS amp would have the same characteristic; of all the sound and none of the distortion, so they would sound quite alike. Maybe what people like is the sound of a cheap valve amp. Just a thought.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448619225' post='2916844'] My thoughts were that anyone only needing a 200 watt amp must actually only be using 100 watts. [/quote] It's more extreme than that surprisingly. You play a note and it sounds loud than fades until it is lost below whatever else your band is playing. Obviously we also play louder and quieter depending upon what the music demands. You might have a dynamic range of 40dB between your loudest and quietest bit of bass. Your 'normal' sound level might be half of your loudest level and maybe even less. If it is half then this is 10db down or 1/10th of the power so you are probably only using less than 20W (with a 200W amp turned up to the distortion point) most of the time. If you had a bit of compression or a limiter then you'd reduce those peaks and a 100W amp would be plenty. That's why valve amps have the reputation for being louder, they kind of naturally compress the sound at the peaks and you can run them closer to the overload point without worry about headroom.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448584776' post='2916716'] Phil, I'm not disagreeing with you. But some people seem to be questioning the use of more powerful amps and observing you don't need more than 200 watts. My view is that if I was using 200 watts I'd have a 500 watt amp just ticking over and not a 200 watt amp running flat out. [/quote] No, I didn't think you were but genuinely didn't get what you were saying Having a technical background I'm happy to have an amp that covers me for all my needs and I don't personally fret too much about Power ratings, Amplifier watts are so cheap nowadays that no-one really needs to go around with too few watts. Most bass amps seem to cluster around the 300W into 4ohm level and that really is plenty to keep up with the band. The difference between 200W and 300W isn't really significant either so if I was looking for a new amp and it sounded great but was 'only' 200W it just wouldn't put me off. If I played a five string and used lots of bass boost and knew my speakers were inefficient if might be an issue but like you I wonder what situation people are playing in where they 'need' 500W. On a pure technical level the just over 1dB increase in going from 2 to 300W just doesn't make the difference people think. Equally amps come with a volume control so if it costs little different you might as well go for a powerful amp and turn it down a little. My advice has always been to choose based on sound not the specs.

[quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1448276966' post='2914036'] I seem to recall a string manufacturer (Dean Markley?) Cryogenically treating bass strings. Did anyone try them & if so did this process help to keep the twang for longer? [/quote] Yep their Blue Steels. They certainly last much better than Roto's without that initial zing, which I don't like much anyway. I'm running a set of these at the moment on a Jazz against some Elixirs on my P. I preferred the sound of the Blue Steels at first though the sound is similar to the Elixirs. I'd say the Elixirs are sounding a little better now after 6 months so the BS's must be degrading a little. I love the sound of month old Roto 66's but found I needed to change them after 3 months when they ent dead, I reckon year old Dean Markley BS's sounded better than three month old Roto's if that helps, so worth the extra cost IMO.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1448561604' post='2916508'] Are you suggesting that is 200w out of a 200w amp? [/quote] Sorry i don't really understand what you are asking 200W gives you 23dB over 1W. So 200W into a speaker that gives 97dB per watt will give 120dB so long as the speaker will handle 200W, which is roughly the same volume as a drummer. That's all I was saying.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1448548250' post='2916360'] Discussion of amp requirements on bass forums always seems strangely unrelated to the world I tend to gig in! I have never owned a rig capable of more than 200 watts, but any time I've lacked volume or headroom it was as much down to the speakers as the amp. Out of the gear I've owned, a combo doing around 130 watts into an undersized sealed 1x12" often ran out of steam, and a 200 watt SS head into a ported 1x10" could also be underwhelming in some contexts (but great for others). I started playing with a 50 watt valve head into a sealed 1x15" and that was often dirtier than I wanted it. But a 100 watt valve head or the 200 watt SS head into a reasonably efficient ported 2x12" seemed enough for pretty much everything I've done. Some of those bands have been with drummers who in my opinion are quite loud, though I've never played in the heavier rock or metal genres. Have I just been extremely lucky with my bandmates? [/quote] Not really, just look at what you are comparing. 130W into a single sealed 12 with 200W into a ported 2x12. Now even if the speakers were identical you are comparing chalk and cheese. I'll explain A ported cab will give you an extra 3dB of bass, 3dB is like turning from 10 to 11 200W will give you nearly an extra 3dB as you have nearly doubled the power so now you've turned to 12! Doubling the speakers you've now got mutual coupling, so better efficiency and you've possibly halved the impedance to 4ohms, so you've got between 3 and 6dB extra volume. Add all this together and you've potentially added 12dB but at least 10dB. That's twice as loud, which you'd need to use 10x the power to achieve with your sealed 12. Good luck with putting 1300W through a single 12. But, you are right about the strange powers people seem to think they need. 120dB is going to get you to the volume of a drummer. You don't need to be louder than the drums. 200W through a decently efficient but unexceptional speaker will give you 120dB.

[quote name='SPHDS' timestamp='1448478778' post='2915801'] Now...there's an idea.....! ;-) Cheers for all the advice! To be fair, we are making a point to try and play at as low a volume as possible in practice - small room, so trying to be able to 'hear' ourselves (Vocals and Axes) trying to minimise feedback through the PA etc....one of our guitarist's amp is being run at about 25W (Vox Valvetronix with some weird variable power jobbie on it......) so the Ashdown is hardly conscious, let alone breaking a sweat.....even when the drummer is 'on one......' (you try telling an Italian to calm down......) So would something about 50W cope in the mix? [/quote] Well it depends upon just how low they turn down. You are going to lose 3dB, which is the equivalent of turning it down a notch. If you had super efficient speakers you'd get away with it but smaller speakers tend to be less efficient at bass. If you then went for a 1x10 you'd lose at least another 3dB. If you go that low what you gain in amplifier weight you'd lose in needing bigger speakers probably. Coincidentally I'm looking for a lightweight, compact solution for the odd practice and open mic and semi acoustic gigs. It's the combination of wattage, speaker efficiency and tone that determine whether something cuts through or not. My single 12" cabs I use for gigs would go loud enough with 50W but you don't get speakers like that in most combo's. Another solution is to look for a lightweight cab and a lightweight amp. I'm looking at a Little Mark 111. If you can spare £1000 then there's always the AER Amp One

Get the drummer to carry the amp for you Seriously, if he is going to go at gig levels then you are pretty much forced to play at gig levels. I rehearse with a 1x10 Hartke kickback with the bass rolled off and the mids forward, but unless you are going to go for something a lot higher in price than the Ashdown anything much smaller is going to struggle, unless you can get them to ease off on the volume. Which you should for all sorts of other reasons of course.

Here's my experience. Playing an instrument as a beginner is boring once you get over the original burst of enthusiasm. There are only a few things you can do so unless you are OCD constant repetition of a few riffs, scales or simple songs just isn't very rewarding. Keep going and of course one or two songs expands to a dozen then much, much more. Now your practice isn't boring and it's easier to do more as a result. At this point you can start looking for other people to play with and that brings its own pleasures. When I was younger I never had the staying power to stick with an instrument long enough to cross that hump. Coming back to it I just managed to get to the point where I could contribute to a band, started gigging a few months later and I can't imagine ever being bored again. So, choose an instrument and stick with it. Learn whole songs, nothing wrong with scales except they are so dull. Playing along with whole songs is fun. Bass and drums aren't really solo instruments so get out playing with other people as soon as you can. Intellectually you know that but realising it emotionally the first time you play in a band and it works is a whole other level.

Maybe it's a velcro jacket

As a gigging covers band we also only need a slightly more polished version of what we do live. I've always just gone in recorded a few live takes and then overdubbed the guide vocal from the original take. Cost is a factor when you are probably only getting £250 a gig. All three of my bands have had a very similar experience. You go in and spend a couple of hours setting up, mainly on the drums. Then we run through a song, record a take, listen and go again if we aren't happy. Then singers go in and record the vocals. We've only needed the second take once luckily enough so generally we've comfortably got 5 songs down by lunchtime, and usually just the three best are mixed down by the end of the afternoon. When I'm looking for a studio just some examples of the engineers work and a guide to price is all I need, and someone who'll ring back promptly. Surprisingly some studios still don't offer a very well maintained web site. The first time you have no idea how efficient the process can be so a cost per hour can look daunting. A special offer of say four hours recording with a mix of the best three songs looks a lot less scary if you haven't done it before. I'd go on the local music websites and do a 'special offer' there. Round here Lemonrock would reach just about all the local gigging, and hence semi pro, bands but I don't know which cover your area.