Phil Starr

Re-visiting this I think you probably need to tell us your budget and maybe what sort of spec. I'm picturing something that will give a reliable 300W rms into 8ohm per side, 500 into 4? If you want reliable then Crown, Yamaha and QSC all offer bullet proof offerings. At the cheaper end Thomann's own brand the T-Amp look good value and users on BC have given good reviews in the past. I'd also stick with Behringer as a recommendation from my own experience.

I've pretty much tried all the tips in all the sizes with all the main culprit headphones. I've a box at home with maybe 40 pairs of tips that I try with each new in ears. In the end I used some triple flange tips I pulled off some earplugs and thay worked really well for me with the original ZS10's I then bought a box of mixed size triple flange and the small ones fit ted well and still do with the pro's. They go right into my ear canal up to the first bend and sit fairly tight, so much so that I've been to the local small injuries unit for them to pull them out when they get stuck. I now carry tweezers with me to gigs

To lose one W-Audio amp seems a misfortune, to lose two seems like carelessness OK, it's a fair cop, I should have said some cheap power amps can be reliable.

I think we nearly all feel this. The price hike from no in-ears to moulded customs is just so huge for a covers band going out for £300 a night shared 5 ways. £500+ is a year's income from the band once you've paid for fuel and other incidental expenses and a lot to risk if it isn't quite right. On the other hand I've never regretted taking @EBS_freak advice. What to do? So I'm going to take one for the team. I've been in touch with Snugs who make moulds largely for bikers and hunting shooting people. Very West Country They are quite near me and I'm going out there to get my ears scanned. They make custom moulded ear buds for a limited range of headphones but I've been talking to them about making customs for the KZ ZS10 pro's. Also possibly for my Sennheiser IE100's. The deal is that I have to leave the 'phones with them whilst they work on them. I have two ZS10's so that isn't a problem. Crucially this costs £169.95 for a pair of custom buds so potentially giving me ZS10 based IEM's that seal reliably, and don't need pushing back in all the time, for just over £200 rather than the £500+ you'd pay for a fully custom IEM of unknown sound quality. I know Russ is going to tell me I'm potentially wasting even more money and will end up paying for full fat in-ears but I'm curious and happy to take the hit. If it is noticeably better than I have now it might be an affordable move for a lot of people. At the moment I'm getting great sounds out of my ZS10 pro's at the beginning of the set but that deteriorates as the evening goes on and they start slipping loose so just playing the whole set with them sounding their best is well worth £200. So the only question is.... Which earphone should I try? Are people going to shift to ZAR's or the latest iteration of the ZS10's. Once they've made one for me Snugs will offer them to anyone who wants them so it would make sense for them and me to start off with the most popular model. I'm happy to pay out the £50ish cost of buying yet another iteration of the ZS10.

I had a Behringer EP2400 for years (old heavy amp) with no problems and bought an iNuke (class D) off someone on BC with no problems other than being as ugly as sin Not 4,000W but 2x500W and now with a neutral looking black case and sold as the NX series. I've also got a couple of Peavey IPR3000 which have been 100%. Probasbly not much help other than to say that cheap PA power amps seem to be generally reliable.

That wasn't really the question I was answering. I thought you were saying you have two lovely 10" speakers already and would it be enough to add a single 12" sub for a four piece band with bass and drums through the PA? Or put another way should you buy a sub or do you have to buy two bigger PA speakers? I think the sub would do it for small and medium venues. You might need a bigger sub, two 12" subs or a very good 12" one though if you play bigger venues. Speaker size alone is only one factor. If you decide to go for the sub I'm absolutely not telling you to set up the same way at every venue. I actually don't think there is a concensus about this. There's no way I'd personally walk into every room and plonk the sub down in the corner or against the back wall next to the kit. The placement depends upon the venue. I'm really saying that whatever you do will have to be a compromise. What is true is that placing the sub on the floor gives you reinforcement, placing it next to a wall a bit more and in the corner most of all. That much isn't about concensus, it's about physics. If your problem at a particular venue is that you don't have enough bass from the subs then put it next to a wall or in a corner and you'll get as much bass as you would adding a second or third sub. If you are playing a small venue or a really boomy room move it away from the walls. You need to know you have options about sub placement. The plus about corner placement if lots of bass to play with. It isn't all plus though. Placing a sub centre stage is going to give your audience the most even spread of sound and the most natural experience. The trouble with this is that you can only really do this successfully if you are on a raised stage, you can't really put a sub in front of your singer/frontperson. Placing it on one side means people on that side will get too much bass and the people on the other side too little (assuming people in the middle get the balance just right). On the plus side sub placement is less critical than what you do with the tops because of the omnidirectional radiation of lw frequencies from speakers. In a smaller venue with a narrow stage it's going to be convenient to put the sub under one of the tops. That might be next to a wall or not. If the room is small you'll have plenty of volume to play with and on a narrow sate no-one is too far from the sub so they will all hear enough bass. The other problem you mentioned is bass feedback with a sub. You might not get feedback at most venues. If you do get it at the sound check then look at the placement of the sub, can you move it away from the drums? If not will moving it away from the wall reduce the bass reaching the drums? If not can you remove the offending frequencies, perhaps by using an HPF in the mixer. Maybe the drums are sitting in a bass trap and moving them a couple of feet will help. If all this sounds problematic then it shouldn't be, once you've got used to your new system you'll set up and have no problems. If you decided to buy a couple of bigger PA speakers to handle the drums you might have the same problems.

OK some experience then. I play in an 'acoustic' duo using a couple of RCF 10's as PA. Also in a couple of bands with RCF15's and crucially an elecctric kit. One particular pub has a really narrow 'stage' and is also quite small and absolutely rammed. With the 15's the band pretty much are all hidden except the singer and can't see the audience either. I've got a pair of 15" subs which I only use for outside gigs so I tried the RCF ART 310's with one of the subs. I placed it up against a side wall with one of the 10's mounted on top the other on the usual stand. First of all the drums sounded immense, the 10's had no trouble with the rest of the frequency spectrum the only problem was getting a good balance between the tops and the subs. I kind of regretted not setting it all up at a rehearsal and should have erred on the side of too little bass rather than too much and due to the packed nature of the pub I couldn't really access the sub during the gig. Oh to have a sound engineer Anyway conclusion is that it works as a system even with fairly modest 10's, I'd anticipate the QSC K10's being a touch pokier than the base level RCF's. I also think a 'good' 12" sub would be enough for most gigs, something of the same sort of quality as the QSC's. I've some spare cash in my band fund at the moment so I've wondered about upgrading from the RCF 310's. I'd have no problem if I started from scratch with going for a sub with a couple of good quality 10's and expecting that to do as good a job as a couple of 15's on poles. If I was doing bigger gigs and didn't have the 15's already I'd probably be looking at a second sub for some gigs. In terms of feedback from the drum mic's then if the sub is under one of your tops and is set to provide the same level of bass as you would have with bigger tops then you should have no extra problems.

Thanks for this, it confirms my own calculations. I don't do it every day and I'm only passingly interested in amps, speakers are more my passion. The idea of a 3" voice coil dissipating more than 500W AES or a 10" speaker being able to handle the excursion to produce 137db across the operating range is absurd. I completely agree with you about Yamaha, I've used a lot of their kit over the years and had a look at these speakers when they first released them. They are really very good at their price point. I didn't know they had gone over to ICEPower but it makes sense as does using the same amp in all the range and throttling back using DSP. I find it hard to totally condemn Yamaha as they are competing in a market where others are making similar claims but they are at the extreme end of over claiming at the moment. Over here RCF are starting to make similar distorted claims though at least 3db down on Yamaha and I noticed recently that Wharfedale have 're-specced' their ranges. It does make me cross though, how on earth is someone who can't do the calculations supposed to make an informed choice. I really blame the lack of a proper regulatory framework and the marketing departments over-ruling the engineers.

I'd rather you didn't. I want them to be more like you Seriously have a look at the SPL levels claimed by some of the reputable PA speaker manufacturers like RCF and Yamaha

The best way of thinking about speaker directionality is picturing it as light. A guitar cab is like a flashlight sending out a focussed beam but spilling a little sound to the sides, a pale reflection of what you get in the main beam. Your PA horns are more like a street lamp spreading the sound evenly over the area you want to illuminate and spilling as little as possible outside that area. The subs are like an old fashioned incandescent lamp, the bare bulb in the middle of the ceiling radiating sound out evenly all round the room but brighter close up and fading over distance. So just like the bare bulb or globe lamp putting your sub in front of you or behind you makes no difference to how loud it is for you. All that really matters is how far away it is. A sub placed a single metre in front of you is going to drown you in low frequency the same as if you place it a metre behind you. As you say positioning in one sense is not important, but distance is and putting the sub close to something that can resonate like a drum skin or an acoustic guitar or double bass is going to make feedback a problem. Ideally also you wnat to think about distance from the audience which is why a central position is ideal, otherwise the people on the side nearest the sub will get more bass than those on the far side of the auditorium. Obviously if you put it at the back of the room the people at the back will hear all the bass but the tops at the other end will be quiet and for the people at the front the bass will have faded but the tops really loud. There are also phase issies but let's keep it simple. Not completely simple though the last consideration are the walls floors and ceilings. Going back to the bare bulb, picture it in a room covered in mirrors; floors, ceiling and walls all covered. The light will be reflected so that on the floor a perfect mirror will double the light you get in your eyes. put it against the wall on the floor and they will both reflect the bulb and you'll get even more light. Now take the bare bulb into the corner and it will reflect off all the surfaces and all the light that was radiating 360deg in a sphere will be reflected back into the room making it really bright for anyone in that corner. Of course you'll see reflections of the bulb all around the room if it is totally mirrored receding into infinity. Hard walls floors and surfaces are almost perfect mirrors for low frequency sound. So QSC K10's plus a 12" sub? Yes please (I'm actually looking for something like this myself as a possible mega portable system) Those 10's are going to be as capable as 12's or even 15's for vocals and guitar, they may even have the same horn drivers. A single 12" sub will probably generate more than enough low end especially if you can place it in a corner. You can get as much as 18db extra bass by careful placement. Those 10's will give you a better sound than most of the 'stick' systems on offer. The only downside is that you will have to sort the placemnt of the subs and there will be a learning curve. That's why I started this thread. 'Subs in Pubs' do solve problems and it's a great idea to reduce the weight of the bits of PA you are lifting and carrying but they do create other challenges and for the UK's ancient buildings the solution has to be different for every venue. You can make this work but expect to have to experiment and for there to be a learning curve. I'm wondering about offering to do PA for friends bands so I can sort problems without having to play bass and sing at the same time

I'd avoid Mark Bass amps. they are no less reliable than their rivals but if they do go wrong outside of the guarantee period expect no support. They have contracted out repairs to a single company and there is no possibility of third party repairs. The only real repair on offer is a complete board replacement at a significant proportion of the cost of a new amp. Ashdown on the other hand offer the best after sales in the business.

That would be nice but thre is a tendency away from that in Europe with advertising claims from reputable firms losing touch with reality. It's the older US manufacturers who tend to be more straightforward in how they spec their poducts. It's not uncommon to see an increase of 6db sensiivity quoted in advertisig over here, so much so that when I saw the correct figure in the Ampeg handbook I thought it worth noting.

Hi John, 300W is +24db to the nearest whole no. So 300W through a 96db/W speaker is 96+24=120db. I've allowed them the extra 1db because I did the calculation in my head to only two places and there might well be some rounding up. For the 2x12 they've simply added 6db I suspect. Adding 6db is not unreasonable. Eminence do plenty of 12's that produce 96db/W so that checks out as being fair at least. Interestingly they only rate the 2x12 as 99db/W. Most manufacturers rate or measure at 2.83V which is 2W into 4 ohms as you know and most rate a 4ohm as 102db which is just a little naughty. If you remember the calculated output of the BC mk1 was between 121 and 122W depending upon which frequency you chose to examine so I don't think there is anything glaringly wrong with what Ampeg are saying. I took the figures for the LFSys cab off their website but again I know they correspond with those on Faital's data sheets. I didn't now I had to show my working 😂😂

Ok full marks to Ampeg for giving good and accurate information on their cabs. I love that they say that sensitivity of 96db/W and 300W gives you 121db of SPL because that is exactly right. Barefaced for example claim 127db for their Big Baby with 95.5db/W sensitivity (according to Eminence who make the drive unit) and 450W handling which works out at 122db give or take a decimal point. So I know exactly how loud in practice 121db is because the two Bass Chat 12" designs @stevie and I designed were 121db speakers, again given a decimal point. I gigged the MK1 for at least two years and only needed the extra cab for outdoor gigs. 121db is about the same level as a drummer. With your amp and the Monaco you will have 98db/W and 600W and that adds up to 125db. To give you another comparison wit the same Eich amp you'll get 127db if you use both your Ampegs. Figures in db are sometimes hard to understand. 1db is the smallest change that you'll notice. You'd bareley notice the difference between the Barefaced and one of your Ampegs or between the LFSys and the pair of your Ampegs. It's there but not very significant. 3 decibels are really the equivalent of turning up a notch, not a huge difference but noticeable by an audience member. A bit like going from 10 to 11 if you like. There's one proviso; the smoother a cabs frequency response the less 'shouty' it will be. The Monaco is the smoothest cab of the lot and maybe the smoothest bass cab available at the moment, some people like shouty and it is a good way of getting heard. Mark Bass make a lot of shouty cabs but I've no idea if the Ampeg is shouty. Hope that helps. the short answer is that I do think one Monaco= 2x112 Ampegs unless you are thrashing the hell out of a pair already

It depends upon what you mean by outperform? It will sound different FOH unless you use an emulator or re-eq. IMO it will sound better but that is down to taste. On stage it will sound louder because of the way the horn is designed to give you a much clearer sound and more like the sound the audience gets. As loud? That's more difficult to answer particularly as I've never used the Ampeg cabs. I can look them up later and give you an opinion based upon the technical information. To an extent it also depends upon your amp. It's a 600W continuous 8ohm cab but if your amp is 300W into 8 as so many are you won't be able to drive it flat out.

Like so many bassists I do the PA, I carry enough speakers Seriously though at the time at the technical level a single 12 was just about enough and two would do anything and that was the advice I was giving beginners on BC. I took my own advice and bought 2x112's but these speakers are special and it turned out that for my needs one speaker was all I ever needed. It was a real shame to have a great speaker doing nothing, after a year of not using it I realised it was a backup I'd never use and sold it on.

I had two Silverstones and never needed to use them both together, one would easily keep pace with a drummer and after a year of never using the second one I sold it on. If anything the Monaco is even more capable. It will handle any pub I've ever played in.

Enjoy your gigging Rick, those Greenboys were a great design. Lovely sound

Your hearing maybe 😂 Sorry, that was meant to be a joke, but that little lot are going to be loud. You do mention ear plugs. I'm with you really despite going the other route. If I was gigging twice a year and had a sorted system I was happy with then I'd just get on with it and make music. I gig maybe 30 gigs a year and probably spend too much on gear. I spent my youth doing sound for people and I designed and built speakers and the technical side of things is as much of a passion for me as playing. I love this stuff! However a lifetime of amplified music has taken a toll on my hearing and there is a better way on offer. Better for the musicians, better for the audience and probably cheaper if you were starting from scratch. Sticking with what you know and love when there isn't a lot of money in it and you prefer just playing and not worrying about it is perfectly sensible. I drive old cars and keep them until they fall apart. I'm always amazed when I drive something newer but cars aren't important to me so long as they work. The Luddites get a bad press, they weren't fighting to stop progress, they were fighting to keep their jobs and feed their families.

I think I ought to add something here. Just in case anyone is thinking of going the cheap Chinese route. John ( @Chienmortbb ) and I were looking at these amps as a lockdown project. I was particularly interested in a battery powered version of the House Jam Micro Cab. The reason it didn't get anywhere was that we didn't find a reliable supplier of a board we could recommend. John got some of the amps 'working' but the quality of some of the components and the heatsinking issues meant we were never going to recommend anything. I moved to looking at the Warwick Gnome to use with the House Jam cab and John went on to look at better manufactures for boards. Any potential savings weren't worth the risk in terms of reliability. Not everyone in China is making capacitors like the ones @agedhorse pictured but it's the Wild West out in the East and definitely buyer beware.

I carry an MA400 as a get you out of trouble unit for the times when the babies forget to bring their own kit, You can also use pretty much any small mixer. I use either KZ ZS10 pro's (very similar to the AS10's) or Sennheiser IE100. One problem you need to think about is how you will hear the rest of the band. You don't get good bass from in-ears unless you get a good seal. As @ratman says you could blend in the FOH mix from the desk but that only works well if everything is going FOH. A well fitting set of in-ears is going to cut the sound from the band as much as earplugs, that might be a bonus but the frequencies you hear will also change. One way round this is to use an ambient mic to pick up the on-stage sound. Also check if the mixer has a spare aux output.

I use rechargeables in my Programmable They last weeks for regular home practice (unlike the BDI 21) but are always flat if I forget to unplug the jack.

Now you've given me an idea. I run my B1ON on rechargeables but my duo partner uses the USB to power a G1ON via his phone charger. I've got some LED stage lighting that runs at USB voltages and run those off a small power bank which saves some of the spaghetti on stage and speeds set up and break-down I wonder how much else could be run off a power bank?

Completely agree with that I suppose the point I was trying to make was that you need to engineer a whole system for the band. If you want to go silent stage then you won't have back line. No bass or guitar amps so even with a sub you'd actually be carrying less. It's just a different way of doing things. It probaly looks like I'm advocating silent stages, I'm not. It's a different philosophy/ way of thinking and it does have advantges but it puts all responsibility on the people running the PA and it is expensive to suddenly expect everyone to change their kit. If all your band are 'expert' in a conventional backline and no-one really knows how to set up for a silent stage it's going to be a huge change and you might just want to get on with playing music. Horses for courses I guess. What I will say is that it does offer better sound for the audience when done well and that all the talk of a feeling of isolation or being soul-less isn't true. What I would advocate though is the use of in-ears if you have a drummer on stage and getting the sound levels down generally by putting a bit of everything through the PA for the audience. It's madness to damage you hearing by trying to stand in front of the amp that are trying to fill the room. If you want to go on performing then going deaf isn't really a good option.

I think this is a good point. You can only do this if you start planning your bands sound from the ground up. Spending money on PA amplification rather than back line that can fill the room. Moving all your eq and tone shaping to preamps and/or to the mixer. You need different kit. Overall if you start from scratch there is a saving to be had both in financial terms and in terms of weight and portability, but the financial benefits won't apply to people who have already invested in massive backline amps or who have spent 40 years finding the perfect amp/speaker combination to do their basic tone shaping for them. Silent stages have only become possible because of better tech. 600W RMS amplifiers weighing just a couple of kilograms can be built into active speakers. You were never going to do this with valve amps and in any case in the 70's the average 12" speaker would only handle 25-50W. Now you can buy a really capable active PA speaker for less than an equally capable bass or guitar stack and an 18 channel digital mixer for less than it's analogue equivalent but which also has all the eq and fx that previously would have been in a separate rack. You can see why people don't want to make this change. Paying maybe £1200 for your bass amplification which you've put together over 20 years doesn't look too bad, chipping in to pay £600ea for a jointly owned PA looks problematic at a human level, especially when the life of the band might only be a few years. Not to mention the 20 years of experience you have of getting the absolute best out of your 'old' gear. In terms of the 'oomph' factor though I've now done gigs with our 10" tops but with a sub and it really isn't a difficult problem to solve