Phil Starr

Welcome, another Bromley boy, though now living in Somerset

having a downward facing sub-woofer would be perfectly acceptable provided certain other conditions are met and would allow you to reduce the size of the baffle, however there is still the need to have enough volume in the cab to allow the two speakers to work properly. Effectively you would need to have a cab for each speaker so the need to be downward facing is not likely to arise in practice. It would be about changing the shape of the cab and not about changing the volume.

Thanks so much for doing this Dan, the maths and physics is easy but there's no substitute for the ears and experience of someone who has tried a lot of gear and played a lot of bass. Constructive criticism is welcome. Here's hoping you like it. Fingers crossed

Stevie's right. (I keep saying that) we started out talking about offering either a Celestion or the Eminence Beta 12A-2 as a cheap option with the Beyma as midprice and maybe the 3012HO as the deluxe version. Modelling showed the extra for the Beyma was worth the money and the 3012 was offering almost nothing for a lot extra. Which made life simpler for us.

I'd very much doubt the 1100W claim, you simply can't disperse heat from a small voice coil that quickly. 400W from a 3" voice coil is pushing it. I can only imagine this is 'peak' power. It also has a piezo tweeter which is a bit downmarket, for that price you'd expect a decent horn driver and proper crossover.

[quote name='sarah thomas' timestamp='1436793769' post='2820775'] Just tried the hearing test Phil Starr put a link to [url="http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx"]http://www.actiononh...-the-check.aspx[/url] and thought my headphones were broken at first. The test checks one ear and then the other. Despite my idiocy, my hearing seems to be okay for my age. Thanks Phil. [/quote] Yeah, I was worried the first time as I thought you had to get them all right, but it takes you down to the point where you can't hear then back up and down again to stop you from getting a false result. Jealous of the 'proper' bass every time I see one. It's actually slightly shocking to see how many people have responded to this thread, it's clearly a really widespread problem. Fortunately our drummer though loud is also really sensible and amenable to putting things right. Even so I'm wearing plugs for practices. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpine-MusicSafe-Filter-Plugs-Musicians/dp/B000VO8PR0 and trying one plug for gigs. Can't get used to the 'cut off from the band' feeling you get yet but I guess that'll come.

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1436921586' post='2822126'] Listed price online is ~$190 USD at the moment, so maybe $150 or so from the right dealer. [/quote]They are quoted at £202 which is about $300US over here the Beyma is around £80 at the moment, a big saving. If we could have the Eminence at around £100 I think we'd have gone for that, the mid rise it shows would have given a more 'commercial cab' sound but with better bass handling than a lot of commercial cabs.

Where do you meet? I'm based in the West Country but come up from time to time, friends in Reading and family in Kent. If I could combine the two I could bring up the BassChat 1x12 http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary/ and talk about the technical side of speakers, including ohms and watts of that would be interesting to anyone else.

I love Roto's but only for about three weeks, new ones are just too much and after about a month they lose their bite, replacing strings every couple of months is too much for me. My favourites are the Dean Markley Blue Steels which give me the steel roundwound sound but keep it for the best part of a year, I've used these exclusively for about four years now, worth the extra because of how long they keep a bright sound. I've tried some Elixirs on one of my basses and they are good too, lasting well so far It'll be interesting to compare them as they age. I can't understand the comments about strings making no difference, sometimes changing the strings is like getting a new bass.

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1436895227' post='2821846'] The Beyma S212 is not readily available in the US through any of my usual channels, FWIW. If I were building this design I wouldn't let that stop me though, there's always a way. [/quote] This design might work quite well with the Eminence 3012HO which is prohibitively expensive over here but which might be cheaper in the states. We did have plans to try one at one point.

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1436875424' post='2821536'] Great to see this progressing! FWIW [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200152-1x12-diy-cab-build/page__st__30"]my SM212 loaded cab[/url] has been working well for over 18months of regular gigging - AFAICS it's very similar to this design (Phil Starr gave me quite a lot of help working out the design so it's no surprise...) I made a shelf port, started out with 50Hz tuning, then tried 40Hz for a few months by adding an extra piece to the shelf. Overall for my needs (4 string primarily) the 50Hz works best - it's subtle but I get a bit more punch and power handling vs the 40Hz setup. It's quite surprising how far just one of these cabs/drivers will go - powered with a LM3 it's more than enough for most pub gigs - only recently I started feeling that having a second one for some larger venues would be a nice idea, have to clear some space in the shed to make another one! The comments about mid prominence are interesting - I've not really noticed that being an issue, but in a brief side by side comparison with an Ampeg 4x10HLF recently it definitely did have more mids than the (quite scooped) sound of the Ampeg. [/quote]I'd recommend this thread for anyone thinking about building their own thread 6V6 understates the effort he put in, I just acted as a sounding board for his ideas. It ended up as a very professionally put together speaker. If I remember correctly in his first few try outs he found the open sound of these speakers something that took a few tries to get used to and to reset the eq appropriately.

More news, one of the cabs is to be reviewed by Dan Veall, bass reviewer of Interactive Guitar Magazine http://www.iguitarmag.com/reviews/?issue=&brand=&producttype=Bass and of course Dood of this parish. At the present the Cab is about to wing it's way to Dan, or it will be once UPS collect it. It'll be great to have a professional and independent opinion of the cab and I'd like to thank Dan for taking the time to do this.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1436787820' post='2820687'] Funnily enough on a thread last month I was told in no uncertain terms that this kind of drummer (and guitarist) no longer exist. . [/quote]He was too More seriously it is easy to test your hearing on-line. All you need is a decent st of headphones. I do this about every six months, so far so good. Anyone in a band needs to do this regularly because you know sooner or later your hearing is going to be affected. Get your drummer to take the test, at least then you'll know what you are dealing with. It's not unreasonable to protect your hearing. At least you still can go to another band, if your hearing is destroyed you won't ever play again. Here's the test http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx It just took me five minutes to complete, If everything is muffled your guitarist is using the wrong ear defenders, get ones especially made for musicians and not the industrial protection ones.

We've been busy on this thread recently so just to remind people the response plots are available on page 10, posts #291 and#296, there's a couple of peaks at 200Hz and just above 2000Hz plus some other small irregularities that you'd get with any cab. I'm not sure about the midrange forward sound we both heard, I'd assumed it was that Stevie's original speaker was a little bass heavy but if he had measured it as flat then I've no reason not to look elsewhere. It was a very obvious difference which I heard out in the audience and Stevie heard from just in front of the cab. I'd agree with Stevie that "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Ultimately, we're just talking about sound balance. The sound was smooth, crisp and clear and there was nothing nasty or unpleasant there - just that the mids were more forward than I'm used to. "[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Doubtless we'll investigate this next time we get a few hours together.[/font][/color]

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1434290668' post='2798321'] What happens when you sing with a finger in your ear, folkie-style? (Apart from problems with your bass playing... ) [/quote] I find it makes it much more difficult to hit the note. That's a good question, it has occured to me that it might be something to do with the way bone transmission differs from transmission of my voice through the air. As I say for years I thought I just couldn't sing, then the monitors say I can so long as I get a clear feed from them.

I meant me of course.

Hi All. A couple more tests tried out this weekend. On Fri I took the speakers along to Stevie's gig and we swapped for the 1x12 in the second half. He was using his own compact 15 with a 6" midrange/tweeter in the first half. Stevie plays in a blues band and his bass was wired with flats. I'll leave Stevie to comment but out in the audience it was obvious the 12's had far more mids than his standard set up. Plenty of clean bass from the 12's but not the warmth he had from his own set up. They are loud too, the single 12 was easily loud enough and I went home with ears ringing! I'd normally have moved further back but I wanted a good listen to the details. The sound warmed up as he tweaked the eq and I reckoned with a bit more time he'd have got the sound he wanted. On Sat we played a double bill with another local band. Much better bassist than yours truly, Quite funky with a fair bit of slap thrown in. These things pop beautifully and using two of them they are loud. They were completely clean sounding at 6 o'clock but had to be turnes down to 3 o'c to match the drums (kick only miked up) even so he was a little too loud, but you know what it's like when you try out a new rig Thanks to Gary Sydenham for this. The overall impression I'm getting with now three bassists is of a really clean open sound from these speakers. On the minus side they really show up any untidiness in your technique but equally show off any expression you use in your playing. I reckon that's down to the slightly extended top end compared to many 12's. They respond well to eq twiddles too. I've three weeks with no gigs so I'll have time to write up the plans now i hope. Hi Stevie looks like you pipped me to the post. BTW really enjoyed the gig.

Yes you are going to be swamped. The biggest change is one we often ignore. Relatively cheap high quality PA systems. Your bass stack used to have to fill even large halls with sound, now even a pub band like mine can afford a PA that will take all the instruments if needed. Up to a certain level you avoid miking the drums so you only need a cab/amp to match the drummer. If you are putting drums through the PA then you go through the PA too. Guitarists just have to turn down, good luck with that So the task is to match the drums and perhaps a little in reserve. A decent 2x10, 1x15 or a high quality 1x12 will do that. Technically you need to get to about 120dB@1m. A couple of any of these will give you anything you would ever need. One may be enough. You'll be told that size doesn't matter. That isn't completely true. There's limited technical reasons why a 10, say, should sound different to a 15 but manufacturers tend to settle for very similar technical solutions so there is grouping around particular sounds. Just be open minded and listen. Finally I'd go for two identical cabs, you can mix and match but the results are unpredictable. Choose a cab you love the sound of and then buy another if you need more of the same. Why buy a cab you don't think is right and then try to correct it with something completely different.

Thanks Roland

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1436345295' post='2817220'] I just came across the specs sheet for a very fancy bass cab from the '70s and the speaker sizes in that were all in cm! I shall see if I can post the image in here - it's a Zoot Horn FF1: [/quote]You were looking for a Behemoth.

[quote name='GrahamT' timestamp='1436342239' post='2817172'] Phil, It is most probably me being thick, but I cannot open the link to Photobucket. Maybe there is a hole in my bucket? ....Sorry.. BTW, I have a few rehearsals coming up at Churchinford in preparation for a gig in Bridgwater on 24th July. Can I have a go with your cab please? I have a couple of Genz Benz Reflex 112's to do a direct comparison. Please call me on 07802 967649 to discuss. [/quote] Hi Graham, I'll pm you later, I need to get some work done I've changed the links, hope they work now, let me know and I'll try again later if there is still a problem. Must work, must work.

If anyone wants to start a build before I've had time to write this up and get drawings done it shouldn't be too difficult. The external dimensions are 360x424x530mm the baffle front is set back 30mm from the front of the cab so internally the depth is 306mm. The four ports are made of standard guttering downpipe 190mm for a 50Hz tuning, and 260mm for a 40hz tuning. All this information is elsewhere in the thread but it's probably hard to find. Stevie wants a 3/4" cab with a slot port so as soon as I get time I'll build it and take some shots of the build so you can follow that. I'll make the plans for both the 12mm braced version and the slot ported version available to people so you can decide which you want. Just to remind you the driver we used is the Beyma SM212. The cab would work with the Eminence Beta12A-2 and the Eminence Kappalite 3012HO though the Betas lacks the xmax and the Kappalite is a lot more expensive. We haven't tried either speaker either so I'm not recommending them, just pointing out possibilities we might try the Celestion at some point.

OK a couple of shots of the interior first one shows what i mean by vane bracing, this is the back of the cab http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20vane%20brace_zpsfauvbstr.jpg?1436341953488&1436341955868 incidentally you can see one of the voids in the external ply, a dead knot that has fallen out. Second one shows the internal bracing http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20internal%20bracing_zps9y14tdo5.jpg With a bit more detail, this shot also shows the reinforced butt joints I use, a 25mm sq batten screwed and glued along all the joints. Strong and easy to make. http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20brace%20detail_zpshldb6lcs.jpg If anyone wants to redo this so the pics display directly then that would be great.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1436341133' post='2817153'] The problem with one thread is that information becomes very hard to find. I'll raise this with the other guys but maybe a slight re-organise might more sense! [/quote] Great, I'm pleased you are watching this, nice one.

OK so here's a thought, though I'm probably going to regret suggesting it. If they won't give us space for a 'Live Sound' sub forum then why don't we make a thread for regular debate/help/discussion. Like the one on DIY cabs in the Amps and Cabs here. We could probably start with some sort of Wiki and if it got enough interest get the thread pinned. If it took off in numbers we could then ask for a sub-forum. I did something similar on Ultimate Guitar, folks there tend to be a bit less knowledgeable but it seemed to work. http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207