Phil Starr

You don't say how new you are to the bass so let's assume you are an absolute beginner. Twist and Shout is too hard for a beginner to play at the original speed. Improvising Funk bass is[b] much[/b] too hard for someone in their first couple of years unless they are seriously talented or are putting in some very serious practice time. You will be able to do all these things eventually. When you start it feels like you are getting nowhere but stick at it and you will get there, it isn't rocket science but it is down to hard work. It may take you weeks or even months just to get your hands working independently. So start with really simple songs. With or Without You by U2 is very simple, just four notes which you can play on just one string, but it will get your hands and fingers moving and you'll have the satisfaction of playing a whole song within a day or two. Seven Nation Army gives you the satisfaction of playing an iconic bass riff without posing too many difficulties for a beginner but there are hundreds of these. You don't mention Tab, most bassists (and guitarists) use tab to communicate what they do, most of us can't read music or read it poorly. Nearly everything on the internet uses tab so you need to know this to make any headway without a teacher. Here's With or Without You on the most popular tab site [url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/u/u2/with_or_without_you_btab.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate...ut_you_btab.htm[/url] Hal Leonard do the best books for beginners, if you can't find/afford a teacher then they make a good start. I used the Fast Track Bass series [url="http://www.halleonard.com/search/search.do?subsiteid=7&keywords=fast+track+bass&searchcategory=00"]http://www.halleonar...archcategory=00[/url] it took me six months to learn six songs but it gets easier once you reach this stage. On the internet this guy does some of the better lessons and some are aimed at new starters http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/songs-group.html Be patient, it is really slow at first but six months after learning those six songs I was performing on stage. Good Luck

Just do it. As everyone is saying. Be aware that broadly open mics fall into two categories. The open mic which is essentially soloists with the occasional duo and trio but essentially acoustic acts. You'll have a basic PA but it is worth taking a small bass amp with you if you have something convenient. The second scenario is more often called a jam session, you'll have a basic PA and a backline and usually a house band. These tend to attract a lot of young bands and vary from a true jam session, with people joining and leaving the house band, to performances where a series of bands and acts do 10-15 minute slots through the evening. You do get acoustic acts but they won't make up much of the evening. The jam session can feel cliquey but if you go regularly you'l find the same songs being played each week so you can learn those and join in. Some house bands are great with newcomers, others not so much. Essentially open mic's are non threatening and full of generous people who share their love of music and who are really supportive of people who are learning. It's a great place to meet other musicians and as a bassist you'll need other people to play with. I went to a couple with my bass in the car to sus them out before I plucked up courage to give it a go. Last tip, get there early and chat with the organiser before the thing kicks off. Have fun.

It isn't really very critical where you place it as the sub is omni directional (radiates equally in all directions) and in any case we aren't very sensitive to those frequencies. Conventionally it is often placed in the middle at the front of the band if you have a raised stage but putting it under one of the tops on a pole is equally good and at least makes it more difficult to knock the top over than on a stand. I find them great as a table to put the mixer on as well. It's best not to put it in line with the mics if you can avoid it but most of the mics should have the bass filter on and most vocal mics are naturally insensitive to bass. It isn't ideal to have them behind the mics but sometimes you have to compromise and you should still be able to get a reasonable sound. Don't agonise about it too much, just put the sub anywhere convenient, but be aware that putting it in a corner will increase the bass because the corners will reflect more of the bass into the room. Have a great gig

Jenny was singing Black Dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyPKee16zdY this was the performance though from memory they've edited the clips. Great Stuff

If you want to settle this then you need some numbers and some evidence. As someone here says "the laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion". You really don't need to be louder than the rest of the band, you actually need [b]not[/b] to be louder than the rest of the band. You are either in balance or not. I'm sure StingrayPete is saying he doesn't want to be on a stage where one band member is drowning out the rest of the band, not that he has an aversion to a particular physical space. Ultimately the limiting factors are twofold, because if you spend enough there is no limit to how loud you can be. The limiting factors are the physiology of the human ear and the strength of the drummer. Sound levels over 100dB are going to cause permanent hearing loss if they are maintained for longer than 3 hours. Check the EU regulations, and those in the States if you want. Many doctors think these limits are too high by the way. In addition at that point the ears are already well into the 'red zone' where what you hear is distorted because the tiny muscles in the middle ear are clamping everything down to limit the vibrations transmitted to the inner ear. A few years ago there was an article about sound levels measured on stage and off stage at a 'well known music festival in the West of England'. It measured sound levels at the ears of the musicians which varied between 100dB and 103db with the drummer getting the loudest sounds. So, there is no point in being able to produce sounds higher in average level than 100dB, or 103dB to be safe (if by being safe you mean partially deaf ) Of course this is average level, you need to be able to cover the peaks with your amp/speakers. This is where it can be debated if you wish but I'd say a dynamic range, the gap between the loudest sound you'd make and the quietest you'd hear might be around 40dB. So you'd need to be able to go from 80-120dB. Bass speakers produce roughly 96-102dB for 1W depending upon make with a 1x12 usually at the bottom of this range. To get 120dB from a speaker with 96dB/W sensitivity would take just under 300W. Without wishing to overcomplicate things this means that a 300W 1x12 can just about match a drummer in terms of volume, Two of them will more than match a drummer. If you need more volume so does the drummer and putting everything through the PA becomes essential. Now the exceptions: [size=4]if you use bass boost then every 3db of boost would need you to double the available power.[/size] [size=4]If [/size][size=4]you use an octaver or fx you may need more power, at least 3d more power[/size] [size=4]You need 6dB more power to get the same volume if you double your distance from the speakers on a big stage, but you'll then drown out the drums. Using floor monitors or something directional like an 8x10 becomes sensible.[/size] [size=4]You need to have an extra 6db if you are playing in open air[/size] [size=4]So a 1x12 will do for a lot of situations, two of them will cover almost all situations but you might need more if you boost the bass or use fx. There are exceptions but then you are into the realm of 'proper' sound engineering.[/size] [size=4]Of course if you just like the sound of banks of multi coned, old school stuff then that's a good reason to use it. You know the cost is in shifting it, but that's down to choice and taste, not physics. There's no over-riding technical reason to look down you noses at lightweight or old school speakers, they can both do a job.[/size]

There's all sorts of things to look at. Amplification, I've found Ashdowns to be pretty dead sounding, 4x10's will radiate mids and highs in a narrow beam which people out front will hear but will pass you by at knee height, all you'll hear is the bottom notes. If you can raise the cab or tilt it back you'l get a better picture of how you sound. The eq settings you need for live performance are completely different to the ones you practice with. Basically boost the mids and roll off deep bass. Once you are playing with drums and a couple of guitars all your mids are drowned beneath theirs. I find when I play live my fingering becomes much stronger, adrenaline rush I suppose. This seems to affect the bottom strings most and I tend to lose the upper note when playing octaves, worth looking to see if your technique changes under pressure. You are getting less treble volume with some guitars/pups than others. Heavily overwound high impedance pups will filter out the highest frequencies and adding a long guitar lead won't help. Use a shorter lead or go for one with low capacitance.

You probably need to give us a budget and tell us what goes through the PA. If it is just vocals and a touch of guitar then even 10's will do. You also need to think about the efficiency of the speakers, 250W a side is modest if you are a rock band with several instruments going through, though plenty f it is just vocals. Look at the sensitivity which tells you how much sound you get per watt 96dB/W should be minimum. you might want to look at active speakers, I know you have an amp but there are technical advantages in matching an amp to speakers and they usually have two amps built in and an active crossover which improves the sound. Again depends upon your budget, however because a lot of people are upgrading to actives second hand passive PA speakers are going for a song at the moment. Finally you need to decide how light you need to go, Plastic cabs are lighter but rarely sound as good as wood. Neodymium speakers are lighter but costly. You could probably get a cab that is a little lighter and a more manageable size without spending too much but light loud and good will cost.

I do love a happy ending.

[quote name='redbandit599' timestamp='1416928384' post='2615131'] [url="http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/cameo-studio-par-64-18x8w-quad-colour.html?gclid=CNyEvLSDlsICFfHKtAodA2gAyA"]http://www.musik-pro...CFfHKtAodA2gAyA[/url] I've started looking around now, lights gas (gaslight?) is spreading... Came across these, look like serious beasts with 18x8w each. Wondering if I could have fewer, more powerful lights now... Suppose spread maybe the issue, also how bright is too bright!? [/quote] [quote name='ratman' timestamp='1416929699' post='2615152'] I'm thinking about investing in some lights. The set I'm thinking about is this: [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_stage_tri_led_bundle_complete.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...le_complete.htm[/url] Does anyone here have these, or any like them? Are they any good for small to medium gigs? Cheers. [/quote] Those are serious lights, I decided the 21W tri led lights were too powerful for pub gigs those are 170W! Though they can be dimmed obviously. Depends what you play and where. These would do most bands http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/cameo-flat-par-can-tri-3w.html and I'd have four of these rather than one of the big guys. The led lights all look like they come out of the same factory with perhaps the casing changed a bit. The Stairville/Thomann lights have a slighly shorter stand thatn the KAM equivalent which can be an issue in some venues. Thats a seriously good price though. I eventually went with the Kam ParBar REM1 which has been a great buy, does the job and is no bother. It is bright enough for just about all we do as a pub covers band, the one you are looking at is brighter. If you use it close to you it will dazzle you but the colours should be nice and intense. These lights are great but are really designed for disco's so the flashing can be a bit manic at times, wouldn't suit a folk band

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1417094278' post='2617025'] Were there people around you BEFORE you embarked on bass cab building? [/quote] Just Leo Fender!

[quote name='lowendgalore' timestamp='1416915679' post='2614920'] I just don't understand with all the technology and thee best of FOH engineers on this big gigs why is still so shoddy! [/quote] [quote name='amnesia' timestamp='1416864259' post='2614563'] Yup - the big sheds are the worst for this. Loads of kick drum and zero bass guitar definition. Lets see what happens at the Slash gig in Manchester Arena on Friday. Having seen them in a 1500-ish venue I know what it should sound like...wonder if it will? [/quote] I was a sound engineer a lot longer than I've been a bass player so here goes. You can have the best gear in the world and it can be hard to get it right in a big space with hard reflective walls and ceilings. I can use the directional qualities of horns and line arrays to make sure the sound you hear is mainly from a speaker pointing directly at you but bass is omni-directional and the lowest notes will be partly coming directly at you and partly from the reflections off every major surface in the room. Because of the extra time the reflected sound takes to get to you it may cancel or augment the direct sound and blur the sound when there are multiple reflections. The large halls also have long reverberation times, the time it takes an echo to die away. If the reverb time is a couple of seconds then how many bass notes will be blurred together in what you hear. All rooms have resonances, play a note tht excites the resonance and it will be louder than you want, maybe much louder. The bigger the space the lower the resonances and this means bass is more likely to excite unwanted room resonances. So clean bass may be tricky or even impossible. Most people in the room won't be that interested in the bass (sad but true) what they want is the gut wrenching excitement of very loud sounds they can't do at home. One note bass does the job, and an engineer may boost frequencies to give the audience the experience they want. They may also choose to try and keep the instruments separate in the mix and it isn't uncommon for them to cut the mids in the bass to keep them out of the vocals and guitars sonic space. Live mixing is very much a compromise and their tastes may just be different from yours. Equally they may just not be good at their job. What I find unforgivable is the sound in Jools Holland. It's a controlled space and they can, if they want, tame room resonances. They have the best equipment and best trained engineers and the sound balance is often all over the place. Frequently with a five piece you will have one or two instruments you can barely hear. Often they are as inaudible at the end of a song as they were at the beginning so someone hasn't noticed or is asleep at the desk. The live show is often worse, which is understandable but don't they soundcheck? I listen on good headphones to so what they put out is pretty much what I hear.

Thanks guys, I might take you up on that, The plan is for one of the other guys to do that from my sketches but they may well appreciate someone else taking that on. I'm still a paper and pencil/back of an envelope guy. I'll ask Lawrence. Biggest hold up now is getting another bass player or two to try the cabs, I'm gigging them so I don't want to send them off to someone and I live in the middle of nowhere so there aren't too many people around within 20 miles of me.

Changing the coil from 8ohms is going to change it's dimensions, less wire or thinner wire. This in turn (geddit) can mean a shorter voice coil and lower Xmax. It can also change the mass so higher resonance and all the other T/S parameters. Hence the sound may well be different. If the cone is the same then the upper part of the frequency range may be very similar, but of course you'd need to check that with the manufacturer. If the speakers are 16ohm drivers then they may have longer coils and better Xmax but lower efficiency and so on. The magnet may have been redesigned to match the new coil or it may not. I'd say listen to both before buying, the possible extra volume from using 4ohms may be an illusion and won't be significant in any case, so choose the one that sounds best.

Just got back from gigging. The design is finished really though I'd like someone else to try it out and give a second opinion. All I have to do now is to build the final box, photograph the process then turn it into a set of instructions that anyone can follow, preferably with a set of drawings too. I'll set my mind to it next week. Good gig though, really good fun.

Just a thought but if anyone is in the Sidmouth area tonight I'll be playing (badly) through the prototypes if you fancy a look/listen/try http://www.lemonrock.com/gig.php?id=368248 7.30 onwards

No trouble at all yet from my Peavey IPR1600's though I tend not to break things.

Sorry, you have a singist who wants to be rockier and a rock band without a singer, even if they are travelling in different directions there's a possibility of getting some jamming together here. There's so much more to gigging than playing music PA, going out and selling the band organising practice that it takes someone a lot of effort. The covers band has someone doing this I would think so it is a much more together unit. If gigging is your thing it's a no-brainer. Plus the originals band has to write and develop a couple of dozen songs and the rock band with your mate have to develop a set before you can perform. But covers bands have to do what the audience want and they probably don't care much about twin guitars or shades of vanilla/rockiness So if you care about the music then that's a no-brainer too. Me, I'm a tart for the happy smiling faces so I'd go for the covers band and the easy ride but you may have a different perspective. Good luck either way.

It's not quite as easy as ebay, you've got to get there as there's no delivery and you can't pay by card over the phone so it's bank transfer or you have to take your card in. There's no indication anything is working either, though you can go in and examine the stuff on the viewing days. The Auction has already started here http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/search-filter/auction-catalogues/peacock-auctioneers/catalogue-id-whpav10130?page=14

My gripe is that promoting live music in pubs is all so amateurish. In fact outside of the gastro pubs and Weatherspoons the licensed trade is so amateurish. Before I rant, a confession, I'm in the camp that would rather play a poorly paid gig to a decent sized lively audience than a well paid one in an empty pub. Pubs have largely failed to respond to changes in society. Pubs used to be warm, inviting, friendly places when people had no central heating and TV was three channels. Most of them are now filthy dirty, smelly and uncomfortable compared with our homes. You really wouldn't accept your own home smelling like a pub toilet. The decor is often unchanged since the 60's and there are plenty of pubs in any decent sized town that have ceilings still stained by nicotine. Sure the smoking ban has changed the nature of many pubs, but before the smoking ban the majority of the population were already non-smokers. They knew they would lose a few smokers but where were the ads saying our pubs were cleaner fresher places, the promotions to introduce new punters to the idea that the pub was a place for them. Guess what publicans, women like a drink too, and a relaxed chat with friends more than most. Pubs shouldn't be somewhere to go to get away from 'her indoors', not in this century. How much effort have you put in to attract women into your pub? Ever thought of cleaning and decorating the place. How many pubs offer wine in 'red or white' and with a taste a supermarket could never get away with. People are quite happy to pay £12 a bottle and up in a restaurant so there is plenty of profit, why not offer a decent product. Then music, how many pubs only put your posters up inside the pub? That'll be all of them then. Not going to attract anyone who has never been in your place is it? Who are you trying to attract with music? A wide range of people? How about a range of music? Young people, how about something up to date or, god forbid, something original? 30-40's how about something that reminds them of their teenage years? When you booked the band did you listen to their recordings? Go to catch them live? What were you thinking? If you spent a few hundred pounds on a new dishwasher you'd spend longer thinking about it than the thousand pounds a month on bands. What's the best place to show off your bands (Tip, not the corner you've piled all the tables and chairs in) How are the acoustics in there? Is it lit to show off the band at it's best. Once you've got a band and an extra 50 punters in what are you offering to keep people there and get them in a party mood/extract the cost of the band? Drinks promotion? Special Menu? Happy hour just before the band comes on? Enough Phil. It's so frustrating, I drag friends along all the time to watch bands, there are fantastic bands around and mostly they are blown away. Dancing all night if they get half a chance. Even my band! Do they go again, rarely because they never know where/when the next band is playing. We are all looking for a good night out, anywhere, and the most numerous providers of social entertainment are doing almost nothing to provide a reason for getting us to leave our lovely, cosy homes stocked with a better range of the drinks we like than our pub. Just try and find out when your local pubs have their quiz night and you'll see what I mean. Half of them don't even have a maintained website never mind Twitter/FB etc. Peoples habits change all the time, the Romans complained it wasn't like the old days, there never was a golden era, just one social phenomenon replacing another, but if the pubs don't reach out and adapt then they will be the social phenomenon of the past. I honestly don't think live music will ever be. We might need to learn some new songs though

You might find this useful if you want a little light background reading [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207"]http://www.ultimate-...d.php?t=1591207[/url] Basically you'll need to decide whether to go for an active mixer with passive speakers or a pair of active speakers with a passive mixer. I'd also go for active monitors as this cuts down on lugging amplifiers around and also cuts down the lead jungle. Don't forget you'll need mics and stands and this all eats into the budget, as do speaker stands and leads. Like everyone else I'd say start out by looking at 12" tops. QSC, Mackie, EV, JBL, Yamaha and Wharfedale have all been mentioned and are good. Steer clear of Peavey, the black widow drivers are excellent and the subs are good as a result but the horn driver they use in their PA cabs is truly awful for vocals, your main use. They have reportedly replaced it in their latest kit but I've not heard them yet. Unless you have a mic you should budget in the £100 range for one. I'd steer you away from the Shure SM58, it's a 50 year old design and showing it a bit. It's tough and undemanding of vocal technique but other mic's have better sound and reject feedback better, go for the beta58 if you must have a Shure, if not look at AKG D5, Sennheiser E835 and up, EV nd767a and Audix OM5, OM7. Everyone is currently upgrading their PA's to active and lightweight at the moment, this means the secondhand market is really good for bargains if you go for passive tops. There were a couple of Yamaha S112's went for £113 a week ago on fleabay. I've had good experiences with Behringer mixers if you need to keep the price down but upgraded to a Yamaha mixer which does sound better.

Beware farms, most farmers will turn their hands to anything and are often quite skilled but their assessment of risk can be a bit close to the wire and it doesn't surprise that someone wired their own single phase socket off the 3-phase supply. We've also had problems, though in our case lack of a decent earth at the end of 100m of wiring. We had to establish our own earth and create a common earth point for the power supply and the metal trailer we set up on!

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1415776932' post='2603566'] I am surprised there hasn't been more attempts to match good cab design to class D amps with DSP controlling multi band limiting and Eq to make powered cabs like the Bergantino ip series. I mean it's common in PA land- just not bass world yet. [/quote] It's clearly coming with combo's like the AER and it will soon be ubiquitous with combo's if only to protect the speakers from abuse. My belief is that is the main reason for putting DSP into PA. For manufacturers returns eat up their profits and having a computer in charge rather than an idiot 'sound engineer' means fewer returns. For bass it depends upon whether you like DI'd bass. I do, but for some people the speaker colouration is part of their sound.

Bill is absolutely right, there is no right answer. We may know what is happening to sound levels and excursion but which is best is a matter of judgement, experience or prejudice. That's why we talk about design philosophy, different designers might consider bass extension, flat responses or any one of a number of factors to be the most important overriding design concern. Given that not everyone wants the same bass sound a 'perfect' sound for one bassist wouldn't be right for another hence the disagreements about cabs in these columns. I'd agree with him about equal loudness too. Depending upon the sound levels and the datum point you use the sound at 31Hz might be 18dB down on what we still perceive as bass, add that to your 13dB and you would be 31dB down on your overall sound level. We just don't hear bass very well. Given the fact that you are in a band and there are lots of other things going on I doubt you'd hear any fundamental above the noise floor in most situations. To be fair against that the reflection off walls, ceilings and floors will reinforce bass output by several dB but I doubt you'd hear much of the fundamental anyway unless it excited room resonances, in which case it would be the room you were hearing not the vibration of the string. So. I guess my design philosophy, such as it is, is that the fundamental isn't very important and that for me I'm happy to lose a bit of output below 50Hz in order to better control the 50-100Hz range. I'd clearly go for the higher tuning in your case but that's not a 'right' answer, just my opinion. [size=3]BFM is indicating he would go for the lower tuning because of the extra excursion you'd get with a bit of eq applied, that's good reasoning too. [/size][size=4]I think your analysis is pretty much spot on, the question is what you do about it. In the end I don't think it will determine the overall sound of your cab and you'd only get cab failure if you regularly operate near the limits of the cab.[/size]

I started at 55, from scratch. Was playing pub gigs within two years. It's never too late! We're playing in Taunton next month http://www.lemonrock.com/gig.php?id=373404 Don't get disheartened if it seems slow at first, and learn whole songs. It's more rewarding and you'll want something you can play with other people sooner or later. There's nothing so exciting as the first time you play with other people and it sounds like music. Welcome aboard

The problem of the end user seems a much bigger problem than anything else to do with bass cab design!! As to your eq 'problems' I wonder if they are down in part to room acoustics. I've found that changes which are not noticeable in one room can become quite dramatic in another. Most of my testing is done in my 'music room' (don't tell my wife I call it that) which has a really heavy resonance right on bottom A, (it's 20' long) the slightest change in this area and the whole room booms. Unfortunately my eq centres on 64 Hz so I can't tune it out very easily. I only do A/B testing in this room now, and then further test in several rooms.