Phil Starr

Well the 932's have a really good compression driver and that helps the vocals a lot. Really nice speakers. The 910's are not something I've heard yet but given they are two steps up from my 310's and the consistency of RCF at the moment I would imagine they are very capable. I use the 310's for my duo with programmed drum tracks for my duo and they have done a great job so far including an outdoor garden event last year. Although you'll miss the horn driver the smaller diameter mid/bass drivers allow a higher frequency crossover so you retain a great vocal sound. If you use a sub you are going to be able to get some pretty significant sound levels even with bass and drums going through the PA.

I wasn't sure where to put this but I remember @Al Krow speculating about whether you could put a full backline through something as compact as a couple of 10's. Well last night on a mad impulse we did a gig leaving my usual PA (couple of RCF 745's) behind. The pub 'stage' we were playing is really deep and narrow and there is a huge RSJ reducing the ceiling height just where you would want to put the speakers. Two huge 15's would mean guitarist and I would effectively be hidden from the audience so I took a couple of RCF310's which I only normally use with my duo. Crucially I took a sub. So the set up was the 310's, a really old Wharfedale EVP15" compact active sub, an RCF M18 digital mixer, eDrums, bass, guitar, 3 vox fully mixed and everyone with in-ears. The first thing was this was really loud, the pub isn't huge but it was packed with maybe 100 people in two awkward rooms. We had so much headroom left. The drums sounded magnificent with this set up, lovely splashy cymbals, crisp kick drum sound and the floor toms were seismic. I won't pretend we didn't have problems, we didn't have much time to set up and the sub was in a corner and I couldn't really get to it to keep making fine adjustments in a crowded pub, it was probably too loud compared with the tops and I ended up trimming the bottom octave on the graphic by around 5db we were getting a bit of bass resonance on stage too and our guitarist who doesn't sort his in-ears properly was complaining of too much bass. That is the issue with subs, they really do swamp the stage area if they are too close. although theoretically they can go anywhere practical considerations mean placement is an issue. In an ideal world I'd have set up the balance between the sub and tops at a rehearsal but sometimes you have to improvise. Interestingly the set up was no more difficult than usual. The sub weighs a ton (somewhere between 30-40kg in reality) I could have used a trolley but I picked it up. The sub and two 10's took up less space in the car than the two 15" tops. In the pub the footprint of the sub is less than the speaker stand and lifting the two 10's onto their poles was a breeze compared with hefting up the two 15's. 19kg is a lot of speaker to lift above your head. Running the long cables out to the sub then on to the tops somehow seemed tidier than two long cables to either side of the stage, certainly no more difficult. Drums certailnly benefitted from the subs, vocal quality from the RCF 310's has always been fine, integration of the horn and 10" speaekr has been done well. The 4" horn drive means the 745's are outstanding for vocals so there might have been a bit of a loss there but I'd like to A/B the two systems. It wsn't shabby last night. the bar staff said it sounded 'exceptional' and it's been a regular music pub for 25 years+ so I'm happy with that. So a couple of 10's with a sub? Is it a viable system? I would say so absolutely. The ART310's are rated as 127db max (knock off 6db for over claiming) as opposed to 133db (same over-claiming) for the 15's but you really can push the 310's with the subs removing the bass. The sub was filling the room with bass and really not working hard, a single sub would fill most of the pubs in the country for our brand of pop-rock covers band so yes I think this set up would blow most of the stick and a sub line systems out of the water both for sound and volume and be a good match for most single point source 1x12+horn cabs. I note that the RCF ART708 8" cab also claims 127db so you could even go 8" plus a sub. Other brands are available of course.

Like all these things you have to isolate one thing at a time and solve that problem, so forgive me if I ask stupid questions. I think you are saying that you have plenty of gain left and other instruments and vocals are loud enough through the PA just not the lead vocal and sax, and that you can't turn them up because of feedback issues. Logically that says your PA is probably loud enough and clear enough elsewhere and the problem is with the mics or possibly with the musicians and the way they are using the mics. You need to deal with them separately. Sax first: difficult things to mic up. What mic are you using and how is it fixed to the sax? Feedback issues are usually to do with setting off resonances and occur at particular frequencies, you should be able to use the x18 to identify the frequencies and a bit of eq might give you more gain. The mouth of a horn is quite a resonant space and moving the mic might well shift the resonances or even reduce them. What sort of quality is the mic? Anyway I suggest you go onto YouTube and have a look for some tutorials on Sax, this might be a start Then your vocalist, you say they sound muffled? First of all what mic are they using? Shure SM58? Is it genuine? There are a lot of fakes out there and even more clones. If the drummer's mic is clear and the vocalists isn't then get them to swap for a few minutes at a rehearsal. If the drummer goes muffled and the vocalist clear then you know what the proble is and a new mic is in order. If not then it's the vocalist at fault. A whole heap of issues are possible. I've seen vocalists off axis singing with the mic pointing at the side of their mouth or even at their cheeks. i've seen mics held at a steep angle to the mouth so they are singing into the side of the mic which will lose the higher frequencies. They cover the back of the mic capsule with their hands touching the rear of the grille or even draping their finger over it to look cool. Putting your hand anywhere near the grille is a recipe for feedback and of course it's pretty hard to really get on top of the mic, 2cm is too far away for most vocal mics. Halving the distance to 1cm gives you a 6db gain and reduction in feedback halve again to 0.5cm and its 12db. Again You Tube has loads of videos on mic technique. You don't say if the Altos are TS212's or TX212's, the old TS's are better but you can test out any speaker with a good quality recording which at least should show up any faults in the speakers. Finally how have you equalised the PA, just a thought but I've seen so many people start with a smiley face eq with treble and bass boosted. That's guaranteed to push the vocal range (mids) right back and give you feedback issues. So hang on to your £500 for a while and be really clear what the issue is before you spend, it might not be your speakers.

Gigging tonight, back tomorrow

I don't want a thread de-rail or a big discussion here but I'm just a little uncomfortable about the direction this might be headed. BassChat thrives because of the generally good natured ethos of debate here. We don't discuss politics or religion and I've had my knuckles rapped for the former Maybe would be better steering away from discussing national stereotypes? I love getting comments from @agedhorse who is a person of great knowledge and experience. He frequently helps out with individual advice to owners of gear he has designed or had an association with. His insights into what Gibson are attempting or indeed any information about how things look from his part of the industry are always fascinating and worth reading. I would love it if more industry insiders engage with us in this way. Often in the past this has been from bassists who happen to work in the industry and their insights are always interesting and add to our general knowledge of all things bass. Obviously they are a little constrained in what they can say and they are unlikely to criticise their own products or employers My own nationalism is pretty limited, I feel shame about quite a lot of England's past and pride about other bits but I'm really happy to see increasing numbers of people from around the world joining BassChat and I'm proud that we make them welcome. Let's all be friends here.

Not being unhelpful I hope but amp sleeves aren't too difficult to build, certainly simpler than a speaker cab, a bass or indeed the innards. That all depends of course on what level of finish and /or authenticity you want to achieve. Unless you can find a retired carpenter or enthusiatic hobbyist I don't think commisioning someone is going to be cheap either. Certainly in the UK carpenters are in short supply and frequently you can wait longer to secure a chippie than it takes to get a GP appointment. Ireland might be better for both of course. Last time I thought about employing a carpenter mates rates/cash jobs were £140 a day and it'sgoing to take more than a day to build an amp sleeve and finish it as a one off job. Most carpenters are going to be specialists and their workshops set up for whatever is making them most money. Few of them will have ever used vinyl coverings so finding someone will be a matter of good luck or a lot of searching to find the right craftsman. It might be worth asking over in the build diaries forum is anyone is prepared to do it or who knows of a cabinet builder.

That's interesting, a run of gigs in pokey pubs has meant I've gone wired recently with the P2 but the sound was such that I tried it at home connecting my in-ears straight to the desk and then through the P2 which I felt did downgrade the sound. I'd assumed the Xvive would be worse with more to go wrong but an improvement in sound would be welcome if that is possible

Really interested in people's direct experience of these. Like so much in PA there are obvious advantages and disadvantages but for every singer who has great mic technique and learned to use their mic there are a hundred who like me have poor mic technique. There's clearly a discussion to be had about the 80's fitness video look v's the 70's rock god stuck immobile to the mic too, but anyone considering this change has um.... considered it. In my case I'm strictly a backing singer just filling in the bits that need a third voice, I'm quite active on stage adding to the energy but sometimes late on the mic and I find playing and singing at the same time a stretch. If you add in running the PA and cueing in band members who don't know arrangements as well a they should and I'll sacrifice a bit of proximity effect for consistency with my vocal feed. If it's good enough for Kylie it could be good enough for the 20 punters at the Dog and Duck. there is of course the need for a profanity filter when I pink torpedo up

Yes, it's worth knowing your mic, my posts are often over long so I didn't go into this too much. the Shure Beta 58 is interesting as it sits somewhere between the cardioid response of the SM58 and most super cardioids. If memeory serves Shure put the 'dead spot' at 135deg. I used to use my own technique with a three mics on the drums. One overhead points across the kit at the snare and one above the hi-hat at the floor toms. You could adjust the height/distance fromthe hi-hat and the cymbals to balance the volumes with the toms and the same on the opposite side with the cymbals. The kick mounted toms were picked up by both mics so you could get quite a reasonable balance by careful mic positioning. There are a lot of three mic techniques out there but it depends upon the kit and knowing the exact pick up patterns of your mics. I have to say the Yamaha looks like a godsend for a pub band though. It's ages since I played a pub with enough space to put up two overheads

Hurrah

Talking about this with a mate yesterday (I'm such a boring man) and his drummer is using a Yamaha EAD 10. basically a miking system and drum brain combined tht clips onto the kick and mics the whole kit. Thankfully our drummer uses an electronic kit so I'd not come across this before.

I'm surprised you mic the snare which is generally pretty loud rather than using an overhead. Kick is often a bit lost in the mix so that is always the first drum to be miked up. I'd then go for something to pick up the reat of the kit though i's point it at the snare. I wouldn't expecting you getting too much bleed on the drum mic's just because the drums are so loud. Feedback is surprising for the same reason with loud sounds you don't need as much gain so gain before feedback should be less of an issue. Are you using compression on the drums? If so backing that off might cure your feedback, also look at moving the kick mic. The kick drum with a hole in the front skin is a big Helmholtz reaonator so poking the mic into the hole area can find a resonant point and moving it a few cm can make a difference. There's loads of stuff on mic-ing up drums on You Tube This one is fairly basic but covers quite a bit of ground to start you off Once you start watching these your evenings won't be your own though

I don't see why not, although drummers move around a lot and that could also be an issue about keeping right on top of the mic. I struggle to coordinate bv's and playing bass so I can't imagine playing drums and singing.

If turning off the vocal mic cures the feedback problem then that’s what is giving you the problem. Unsurprisingly as his voice is a lot quieter than the drums so that mic will have more gain. If you have a digital desk then you should apply a gate to his vocal mic. It switches the mic off when he isn’t using it. Find out what pattern of mic he is using. If it’s a cardioid like the SM57 then the dead spot for the mic is at the back end which should be pointed at the monitor. If it’s a super cardioid then the dead spot is at the side. Your drummer needs to get as close to the mic as possible to get his volume up so the gain can be reduced ie he needs to ‘eat the mic’.

And the added hazard that the acoustics change throughout the evening as the room fills and people stand up to dance. Do you use the upright? That's gotta be even more difficult in a skittle alley.

As Bill has said close to the drummer is a complete no-no. Close to the wall is not a major issue but you have to realise you've effectively added an 'extra' sub and turn down. Your ears should be your guide but expecting the problem means you start up expecting more bass in this situation. It can be a positive too. If you think your sub won't be enough for a big venue pushing it into a corner or against the wall gives you a free boost. In the end Sub placement has to be a bit of a compromise for a gigging band doing their own PA. If you are gigging a regular venue or settint up a permanent installation you'd do better but with an hour to set up there have to be compromises and no sub or accepting lower bass levels from it is sometimes the answer. Long narrow rooms are always tricky and a bane of the UK's often ancient pubs. Down in the West Country skittle alleys are widespread and frequently the place they put the band. The close side walls and ceilings are frequently too close and for the bass wavelenght dimensions so you have lots of resonances, multiple pathways and phase cancelling. I usually end up with an HPF filtering out a lot of the lower frequencies as the best way of dealing with this.

That could have just been boundary reinforcement. Placing a sub back against a wall means the sound is all going forwards reinforcing the sound levels, in fact all the surrounding surfaces will have the same effect so if it is in a corner you have the side wall floor and rear wall all reflecting and increasing the sound levels from the sub. You need to turn the sub right down in this situation. Of course it would also be closer to the drummer (obvs) and to you if you were standing next to them.

You've pretty much worked it out. You'll soon hear bass feedback though, it isn't subtle and I'd treat the kick mic with some respect and maybe start with it a touch lower than usual. Not because it is behind as Bill has already said but because it might be closer to the mics. If you're using just one sub I quite like mine under one of the tops. It's makes at least one of the tops more audience proof. One tip is to put a cardboard pyramid on top of tha sub, it stops people putting their drinks on it

Oh goody, this is turning into a reminiscence 😂😁 I was going to say in response to @Bill Fitzmaurice that we really strugled over here in the late 60's/early 70's as the better US made speakers like EV and JBL were fearsomely expensive over here. Of the three speaker brands mentioned Fane were the budget brand at the time but 12" speakers at the affordable end were usually rated at around 25-30W as John has pointed out, and WEM's 4x10 columns were rated at under 100W. Top end response generally at the time was provided by having a second smaller cone added to the front of the voice coil former called a whizzer cone. Voice coils were short to keep the efficiency up as high as possible and the speakers literally bunt out if pushed hard as the coil was wrapped around a paper former and stuck together with a protein based glue. Replacing speakers was a regular task. There wasn't a lot of choice of ready made PA speakers around and a lot of small custom builders. To get the most out of an expensive speaker I built a lot of very big horn cabinets and I spent weeks designing a hybrid cab which came out within an inch or two in every dimension of the Altec A7. At the time they sounded really good but I do wonder how they woulkd compare now. I doubt that those 4x10 columns would compete well with todays cabs, even cheap ones. However there is nothing wrong with the theoretical advantages of a column speaker in terms of dispersion and it offers a chance to move the crossover point(s) away from the critical midrange where our hearing is most sensitive.

OK that sounds interesting. I quite like a challenge so tell us about the band, what's the theme? What is the line up and where will you be playing? Which instruments willyou be putting through this PA? Do you have a budget in mind? Technically a 'line' isn't a bad idea, hence all the 'me-too' sub and a stick systems or the touring bands true line arrays. There's absolutely no reason why something like Bill's design above couldn't work extremely well and there are other solutions which would give you the same visuals but with modern performance levels. You can hide a lot behind a speaker grille and I'm picturing something like the old WEM 4x10's, I believe you can still get the old style grille cloth and the vinyl speaker covering if you wanted to make it really authentic. A quick calculation shows it wouldn't be difficult to make a 4x8 with a response 3db down at 50Hz and 900W handling and 127dB output. That's AES ratings, Yamaha, RCF and most of the rest add an extra 6db so its 3,600W and 133db if you want to compare it with commercial cabs claims How would you be powering this speaker? Your biggest problem in the design will be the crossover.

I'm not convinced as to why you would do this either. These were built in the days when materials science hadn't caught up with PA needs and gear was very expensive. PA was still largely about getting as much sound as possible out of speakers that wouldn't handle huge amounts of power so multiple cheap drivers was the rule of the day. Plus of course th excellent dispersion patterns of vertical arrays. Using two 12's for mids is a bit odd as they already have issues in the mid-range. The truth is that these things were never great and it took all we had in those days to coax a decent sound out of them. Thre were a few 4x12 collumns with horns ( I vaguely remember WEM made some) but they were uber-expensive at the time and beyond the reach of most bands. This was Pink Floyd's touring rig in 1969

I'm not surprised you got this from the Gnome. I have one which I use with my LFSys Monaco which has a similar sound to the Monza. We actually measured the frequency response of the Gnome at the SW Bass Bash a couple of years agao and with the controls set to 12.00 they are a long way from flat. There's a pronounced mid scoop at 400 Hz, and the treble response is like the side of a hill agressively rising to way abve the upper frequencise of a bass, That will be boosting all the high frequency noise in your system and giving you the 'brittle' sound. Back the treble to around 9.00 o'clock and the treble resonse will be almost flat. Advance the mid control to 2.00 if you want to lose the scoop and 11.00 will flatten a little bass hump that exists. I'm assuming that the treble boost baked into the Gnome is to give a sort of bright hi-fi sound out of speakers that don't have a horn. The Monza is just reproducing that honestly. In fact re-eq everything and report back please. I haven't had the chance to try the Monza ( the only LFS that I haven't tried) and it does intrigue me.

I feel your pain, one of my drummers was also trained as a sound engineer and a gear head. Drummers by nature seem to be sound heads too. One cymbal sounds like another to me but they can be very particular about their kit. Eventually that band which was so full of promise broke up because partly because the rest of the band got fed up with time wasted at rehearsals. Equally the two things that take time with every band at gigs are the kit and the PA. I do PA for my bands and drummist and I are always first to arrive and last to leave. In this case I don't think it makes things more complex. Hopefully you'll end up with a 'stagebox' type mixer run with a laptop or tablet. From the bands point of view this is like the business end of an old fashioned 'snake' and they can all just plug in whatever they use. I've labelled up the sockets for my lot to plug in to. As people plug in you can see what they've done and if it is all working on screen so no need for any more one-two's and broken leads/hum loops etc show up straight away. At the end of the gig you can save the settings and after a couple of gigs use the same set up every time. Most/some of these mixers will even do the room eq for you. The band furthest down the line/early adopters now sort out their own in-ears, again labelled sockets on the mixer but they can (and do) all use their phones to adjust their own mixes without affecting anyone elses. There will be a few gigs getting used to it but eventually it will be simpler/quicker IME. Funnily enough I also have a semi-acoustic duo. I must admit that so far we don't use in ears, I sing more in the duo and it's quite nice to keep the noise levels down and listen to the 'air' I keep having to stop my singer/guitarist from upping his own volume though. Honestly it's worth the journey though, let them sort out the in-ears for themselves then I suggest you try them for yourself. It'll save your hearing and improve your playing (nothing like me hearing every mistake I make to help me up my game). It is the future and I'd never go back to the average band's volume wars. Good luck with your band

I think it's OK not to want to pay for something you don't really understand so the problem is who pays for it. You also need to ask yourself what you are demanding of them. Then maybe you can discuss the real issue which is money. Technically you need a new desk to improve your monitoring. Until maybe 10 years ago this was almost impossible within a pub band budget but now digital desks are as cheap as similar quality analogue desks and a lot more capable. The big advance is the availability of 6+ aux outputs so everyone who wants can have a separately mixed monitoring channel. You can put these separate mixes through monitor speakers but most pub bands never play on stages big enough to get a separation of sound. Ear plugs don't really work as they always block some frequencies more than others and if your guys are talking about tinnitus the probability is that they already have some hearing loss. The further probability is that it is your band that is causing that loss. If you resist this then you are asking them to continue to lose their hearing so you can stick to what you know. That is a huge ask. It is perfectly reasonable for you to say you can't afford it or to say you don't want in-ears yourself (though in the end your hearing will be damaged too). Your band need a grown up discussion about money and I think you need to accept the decision to make the change. It will be all the better for you too in the end, you are pretty lucky to have people in the band with the expertise and energy to make this change. In-ear monitors will improve their playing and singing and the new mixer will improve your FOH sound for the audience and hopefully more and better gigs as a result. I'm sure that thinking about this you won't feel you can ask them to suffer further hearing damage. If it helps I sold my old analogue desk and got 60% of the cost of my digital desk back from the sale. Maybe as a band give the drummer a fee from one of your gigs to go towards his purchase. Once you realise you are just dicussing how to fund it things should move along a bit better.