Phil Starr

Nothing wrong with what you are proposing but if I was buying new and my tech knowledge was limited I'd go for a passive mixer and a couple of active tops. Having the amp matched to the speakers has technical and practical advantages which are worthwhile. They don't come up used very often though and people are unloading their old passives so they are relatively cheap used at the moment. Not all passives are equal though, the EV's mentioned above would be a good choice or some used Yamaha SM112V's would be cheap and use easily replaceable Eminence speakers if they ever go wrong. Not strictly accurate but they give a great vocal sound. If you want to read up on options http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207

I'd say you are looking at this the wrong way. If you changed to a different 2x15 you'd have a different sound. You might find it better or worse, massive or maybe not as massive as your current cab. Technically there is no reason at all for a 2x12 not to be able to do what you want but all of them are going to sound different to your current cab. That would be true of a new speaker of any size/combination. So, stop thinking about it and start trying out new speakers. Reject then ones you don't like the sound of and come up with a shortlist then compare them with each other and your original cab, then the answer will be clear.

If you are based in Taunton then it might be worth going to PMT in Bristol where they stock a lot of these speakers and you can try them out. I'd go for the RCF's every time, I did a straight comparison with the Yamahas and the RCF's are just a lot clearer on vocals because of using better drive units. I'd also back up the recommendation to go for 10's, or 12's at the biggest the 15" drivers suffer in the midrange which is the most important bit for vocals. The mackie Thumps are a cheaper speaker and a lot less sensitive than the SRM's

I'd second the sheer awfulness of the Peavey horn drivers in what are otherwise great value for money speakers.

When does a covers band start being a function band? One of the better places to look for genuinely working covers bands is Lemonrock.com , essentially a site for covers bands to advertise their gigs and tout for more. They'll range from weekend warriors up to professional function bands but they are all pretty much gigging bands as they pay to join, which cuts out a lot of the dreamers and bedroom players. I suspect the fully pro function bands expect you to read and advertise elsewhere, but there are plenty of the more professional covers bands doing mainly functions and charging good money for it.

Well the sound that got me hooked was Jamerson's playing but this tone from Martin Turner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUolWNHxRiM&list=PLHUOhawG5U2JW49r2Y11cIO8syOskd7j-&index=9 With a bit of this from the same man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia73dAETiGk

It's simple to wire with switched jack sockets, just wire the sockets in series so they short when the plug is pulled out.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1418907073' post='2634677'] I've been pondering my gear needs and having a look over this thread. Currently I have a 2x12" cab loaded with a pair of 4-ohm B&C 12HPL64 drivers, wired in series for 8 ohms. This has good sensitivity and gets plenty loud enough for my needs even with moderately powered amps. The lows aren't massive on paper (it's 3dB down at around 75Hz), but in practice they're more than sufficient and I often roll off the bass EQ on the amp. It's a very light cab for its size and capabilities, but I think that most of what I do could be covered with a 1x12", occasionally adding a second one where needed. Portability is very important to me, as I live upstairs in a city centre flat. With that in mind, I've been looking at a few different options for one or two smaller cabs and comparing the specs against my current 2x12". In terms of tone, I don't need or want highs in the tweeter region but I like to hear plenty of upper mid, and I'm not bothered with trying to produce the lowest fundamentals. With that as background, would it be a crazy idea to think about reducing the volume of the cab using the SM212? Playing around with WinISD, reducing the volume to around 35-40 litres gives a midbass bump of just over 1dB (depending on tuning). Having played cabs with larger bumps, I feel that could be workable. Using the same volume but plugging the ports for a sealed design gives the expected smooth roll-off, but the maximum SPL of a pair of them is still very close to my existing 2x12" which has always been enough for me. It wouldn't be too hard to build one and try it both ways. Obviously these would be a compromise compared to the 50 litre design presented here, but it seems this could be an acceptable trade-off for my particular needs. [/quote] B & C drivers are as good as pretty much anything out there, so why not just try them in the smaller cab. I'm just having lunch so all I've done is look at the T/S parameters but I think they'd behave better in the 35l cab than the SM212's. Qts and Vas are lower than the SM212 which helps. Xmax for the SM212 is better and the frequency response is flatter but the response peak in the B&C is probably much better for a bass. The only problem I can see is that a single one would be 4 ohms and you'd need to wire one of the cabs so you could get a series connection to use them as a pair, they are Neo too so there's a weight saving, nice drivers.

I recently joined a new band, 30 new songs in a couple of months in my case. I was talking to our guitarist about how he coped and he pointed out that so long as the bass, drums and rhythm section keep going he can drop out or just chord out sections where he is unsure, solo's generally come over a simple chord sequence or even stay on one chord. Normally I find the basics of a song take half the time to learn, the last 5% takes almost as long as the rest of the song. As a bassist you pretty much have to know the whole song so the demands are slightly different.

You probably won't get everything you want at your price bracket. Lightweight stuff is fairly new and there isn't a glut second hand. Light,loud and cheap don't come together to make either. Cheap speakers lack the ability to move enough air to make loud bass sounds bigger or two speakers get there but at the cost of double the weight. this applies whether you have a combo or a separate amp. the compromise I use when I need light weight or something for a small stage is a Harke kickback (other amps are available) but the trick is to roll off the bass, which enables you to turn up without over driving the speaker. Pushing it against a back wall or even better into a corner means the walls reflect bass back into the room giving a bit of bass boost to compensate for the roll off in eq. If you can put a bit of bass through the PA then give it a bass boost to compensate for the cut of your stage amp. If that tone isn't acceptable then you only have two alternatives, play quieter or save up for a better combo. None of us has yet found a way of being loud, light, bassy and cheap. Sorry

K&M make good quality mic stands https://www.studiospares.com/Accessories/Stands-Mic/KM-21020-Mic-Stand-and-Boom-Black_408860.htm For a fraction of the price you can get the Studiospares own brand made in China version which is OK. You can get spares for both brands too.

You don't say how new you are to the bass so let's assume you are an absolute beginner. Twist and Shout is too hard for a beginner to play at the original speed. Improvising Funk bass is[b] much[/b] too hard for someone in their first couple of years unless they are seriously talented or are putting in some very serious practice time. You will be able to do all these things eventually. When you start it feels like you are getting nowhere but stick at it and you will get there, it isn't rocket science but it is down to hard work. It may take you weeks or even months just to get your hands working independently. So start with really simple songs. With or Without You by U2 is very simple, just four notes which you can play on just one string, but it will get your hands and fingers moving and you'll have the satisfaction of playing a whole song within a day or two. Seven Nation Army gives you the satisfaction of playing an iconic bass riff without posing too many difficulties for a beginner but there are hundreds of these. You don't mention Tab, most bassists (and guitarists) use tab to communicate what they do, most of us can't read music or read it poorly. Nearly everything on the internet uses tab so you need to know this to make any headway without a teacher. Here's With or Without You on the most popular tab site [url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/u/u2/with_or_without_you_btab.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate...ut_you_btab.htm[/url] Hal Leonard do the best books for beginners, if you can't find/afford a teacher then they make a good start. I used the Fast Track Bass series [url="http://www.halleonard.com/search/search.do?subsiteid=7&keywords=fast+track+bass&searchcategory=00"]http://www.halleonar...archcategory=00[/url] it took me six months to learn six songs but it gets easier once you reach this stage. On the internet this guy does some of the better lessons and some are aimed at new starters http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/songs-group.html Be patient, it is really slow at first but six months after learning those six songs I was performing on stage. Good Luck

Just do it. As everyone is saying. Be aware that broadly open mics fall into two categories. The open mic which is essentially soloists with the occasional duo and trio but essentially acoustic acts. You'll have a basic PA but it is worth taking a small bass amp with you if you have something convenient. The second scenario is more often called a jam session, you'll have a basic PA and a backline and usually a house band. These tend to attract a lot of young bands and vary from a true jam session, with people joining and leaving the house band, to performances where a series of bands and acts do 10-15 minute slots through the evening. You do get acoustic acts but they won't make up much of the evening. The jam session can feel cliquey but if you go regularly you'l find the same songs being played each week so you can learn those and join in. Some house bands are great with newcomers, others not so much. Essentially open mic's are non threatening and full of generous people who share their love of music and who are really supportive of people who are learning. It's a great place to meet other musicians and as a bassist you'll need other people to play with. I went to a couple with my bass in the car to sus them out before I plucked up courage to give it a go. Last tip, get there early and chat with the organiser before the thing kicks off. Have fun.

It isn't really very critical where you place it as the sub is omni directional (radiates equally in all directions) and in any case we aren't very sensitive to those frequencies. Conventionally it is often placed in the middle at the front of the band if you have a raised stage but putting it under one of the tops on a pole is equally good and at least makes it more difficult to knock the top over than on a stand. I find them great as a table to put the mixer on as well. It's best not to put it in line with the mics if you can avoid it but most of the mics should have the bass filter on and most vocal mics are naturally insensitive to bass. It isn't ideal to have them behind the mics but sometimes you have to compromise and you should still be able to get a reasonable sound. Don't agonise about it too much, just put the sub anywhere convenient, but be aware that putting it in a corner will increase the bass because the corners will reflect more of the bass into the room. Have a great gig

Jenny was singing Black Dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyPKee16zdY this was the performance though from memory they've edited the clips. Great Stuff

If you want to settle this then you need some numbers and some evidence. As someone here says "the laws of physics aren't swayed by opinion". You really don't need to be louder than the rest of the band, you actually need [b]not[/b] to be louder than the rest of the band. You are either in balance or not. I'm sure StingrayPete is saying he doesn't want to be on a stage where one band member is drowning out the rest of the band, not that he has an aversion to a particular physical space. Ultimately the limiting factors are twofold, because if you spend enough there is no limit to how loud you can be. The limiting factors are the physiology of the human ear and the strength of the drummer. Sound levels over 100dB are going to cause permanent hearing loss if they are maintained for longer than 3 hours. Check the EU regulations, and those in the States if you want. Many doctors think these limits are too high by the way. In addition at that point the ears are already well into the 'red zone' where what you hear is distorted because the tiny muscles in the middle ear are clamping everything down to limit the vibrations transmitted to the inner ear. A few years ago there was an article about sound levels measured on stage and off stage at a 'well known music festival in the West of England'. It measured sound levels at the ears of the musicians which varied between 100dB and 103db with the drummer getting the loudest sounds. So, there is no point in being able to produce sounds higher in average level than 100dB, or 103dB to be safe (if by being safe you mean partially deaf ) Of course this is average level, you need to be able to cover the peaks with your amp/speakers. This is where it can be debated if you wish but I'd say a dynamic range, the gap between the loudest sound you'd make and the quietest you'd hear might be around 40dB. So you'd need to be able to go from 80-120dB. Bass speakers produce roughly 96-102dB for 1W depending upon make with a 1x12 usually at the bottom of this range. To get 120dB from a speaker with 96dB/W sensitivity would take just under 300W. Without wishing to overcomplicate things this means that a 300W 1x12 can just about match a drummer in terms of volume, Two of them will more than match a drummer. If you need more volume so does the drummer and putting everything through the PA becomes essential. Now the exceptions: [size=4]if you use bass boost then every 3db of boost would need you to double the available power.[/size] [size=4]If [/size][size=4]you use an octaver or fx you may need more power, at least 3d more power[/size] [size=4]You need 6dB more power to get the same volume if you double your distance from the speakers on a big stage, but you'll then drown out the drums. Using floor monitors or something directional like an 8x10 becomes sensible.[/size] [size=4]You need to have an extra 6db if you are playing in open air[/size] [size=4]So a 1x12 will do for a lot of situations, two of them will cover almost all situations but you might need more if you boost the bass or use fx. There are exceptions but then you are into the realm of 'proper' sound engineering.[/size] [size=4]Of course if you just like the sound of banks of multi coned, old school stuff then that's a good reason to use it. You know the cost is in shifting it, but that's down to choice and taste, not physics. There's no over-riding technical reason to look down you noses at lightweight or old school speakers, they can both do a job.[/size]

There's all sorts of things to look at. Amplification, I've found Ashdowns to be pretty dead sounding, 4x10's will radiate mids and highs in a narrow beam which people out front will hear but will pass you by at knee height, all you'll hear is the bottom notes. If you can raise the cab or tilt it back you'l get a better picture of how you sound. The eq settings you need for live performance are completely different to the ones you practice with. Basically boost the mids and roll off deep bass. Once you are playing with drums and a couple of guitars all your mids are drowned beneath theirs. I find when I play live my fingering becomes much stronger, adrenaline rush I suppose. This seems to affect the bottom strings most and I tend to lose the upper note when playing octaves, worth looking to see if your technique changes under pressure. You are getting less treble volume with some guitars/pups than others. Heavily overwound high impedance pups will filter out the highest frequencies and adding a long guitar lead won't help. Use a shorter lead or go for one with low capacitance.

You probably need to give us a budget and tell us what goes through the PA. If it is just vocals and a touch of guitar then even 10's will do. You also need to think about the efficiency of the speakers, 250W a side is modest if you are a rock band with several instruments going through, though plenty f it is just vocals. Look at the sensitivity which tells you how much sound you get per watt 96dB/W should be minimum. you might want to look at active speakers, I know you have an amp but there are technical advantages in matching an amp to speakers and they usually have two amps built in and an active crossover which improves the sound. Again depends upon your budget, however because a lot of people are upgrading to actives second hand passive PA speakers are going for a song at the moment. Finally you need to decide how light you need to go, Plastic cabs are lighter but rarely sound as good as wood. Neodymium speakers are lighter but costly. You could probably get a cab that is a little lighter and a more manageable size without spending too much but light loud and good will cost.

I do love a happy ending.

[quote name='redbandit599' timestamp='1416928384' post='2615131'] [url="http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/cameo-studio-par-64-18x8w-quad-colour.html?gclid=CNyEvLSDlsICFfHKtAodA2gAyA"]http://www.musik-pro...CFfHKtAodA2gAyA[/url] I've started looking around now, lights gas (gaslight?) is spreading... Came across these, look like serious beasts with 18x8w each. Wondering if I could have fewer, more powerful lights now... Suppose spread maybe the issue, also how bright is too bright!? [/quote] [quote name='ratman' timestamp='1416929699' post='2615152'] I'm thinking about investing in some lights. The set I'm thinking about is this: [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_stage_tri_led_bundle_complete.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...le_complete.htm[/url] Does anyone here have these, or any like them? Are they any good for small to medium gigs? Cheers. [/quote] Those are serious lights, I decided the 21W tri led lights were too powerful for pub gigs those are 170W! Though they can be dimmed obviously. Depends what you play and where. These would do most bands http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/cameo-flat-par-can-tri-3w.html and I'd have four of these rather than one of the big guys. The led lights all look like they come out of the same factory with perhaps the casing changed a bit. The Stairville/Thomann lights have a slighly shorter stand thatn the KAM equivalent which can be an issue in some venues. Thats a seriously good price though. I eventually went with the Kam ParBar REM1 which has been a great buy, does the job and is no bother. It is bright enough for just about all we do as a pub covers band, the one you are looking at is brighter. If you use it close to you it will dazzle you but the colours should be nice and intense. These lights are great but are really designed for disco's so the flashing can be a bit manic at times, wouldn't suit a folk band

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1417094278' post='2617025'] Were there people around you BEFORE you embarked on bass cab building? [/quote] Just Leo Fender!

[quote name='lowendgalore' timestamp='1416915679' post='2614920'] I just don't understand with all the technology and thee best of FOH engineers on this big gigs why is still so shoddy! [/quote] [quote name='amnesia' timestamp='1416864259' post='2614563'] Yup - the big sheds are the worst for this. Loads of kick drum and zero bass guitar definition. Lets see what happens at the Slash gig in Manchester Arena on Friday. Having seen them in a 1500-ish venue I know what it should sound like...wonder if it will? [/quote] I was a sound engineer a lot longer than I've been a bass player so here goes. You can have the best gear in the world and it can be hard to get it right in a big space with hard reflective walls and ceilings. I can use the directional qualities of horns and line arrays to make sure the sound you hear is mainly from a speaker pointing directly at you but bass is omni-directional and the lowest notes will be partly coming directly at you and partly from the reflections off every major surface in the room. Because of the extra time the reflected sound takes to get to you it may cancel or augment the direct sound and blur the sound when there are multiple reflections. The large halls also have long reverberation times, the time it takes an echo to die away. If the reverb time is a couple of seconds then how many bass notes will be blurred together in what you hear. All rooms have resonances, play a note tht excites the resonance and it will be louder than you want, maybe much louder. The bigger the space the lower the resonances and this means bass is more likely to excite unwanted room resonances. So clean bass may be tricky or even impossible. Most people in the room won't be that interested in the bass (sad but true) what they want is the gut wrenching excitement of very loud sounds they can't do at home. One note bass does the job, and an engineer may boost frequencies to give the audience the experience they want. They may also choose to try and keep the instruments separate in the mix and it isn't uncommon for them to cut the mids in the bass to keep them out of the vocals and guitars sonic space. Live mixing is very much a compromise and their tastes may just be different from yours. Equally they may just not be good at their job. What I find unforgivable is the sound in Jools Holland. It's a controlled space and they can, if they want, tame room resonances. They have the best equipment and best trained engineers and the sound balance is often all over the place. Frequently with a five piece you will have one or two instruments you can barely hear. Often they are as inaudible at the end of a song as they were at the beginning so someone hasn't noticed or is asleep at the desk. The live show is often worse, which is understandable but don't they soundcheck? I listen on good headphones to so what they put out is pretty much what I hear.

Thanks guys, I might take you up on that, The plan is for one of the other guys to do that from my sketches but they may well appreciate someone else taking that on. I'm still a paper and pencil/back of an envelope guy. I'll ask Lawrence. Biggest hold up now is getting another bass player or two to try the cabs, I'm gigging them so I don't want to send them off to someone and I live in the middle of nowhere so there aren't too many people around within 20 miles of me.

Changing the coil from 8ohms is going to change it's dimensions, less wire or thinner wire. This in turn (geddit) can mean a shorter voice coil and lower Xmax. It can also change the mass so higher resonance and all the other T/S parameters. Hence the sound may well be different. If the cone is the same then the upper part of the frequency range may be very similar, but of course you'd need to check that with the manufacturer. If the speakers are 16ohm drivers then they may have longer coils and better Xmax but lower efficiency and so on. The magnet may have been redesigned to match the new coil or it may not. I'd say listen to both before buying, the possible extra volume from using 4ohms may be an illusion and won't be significant in any case, so choose the one that sounds best.

Just got back from gigging. The design is finished really though I'd like someone else to try it out and give a second opinion. All I have to do now is to build the final box, photograph the process then turn it into a set of instructions that anyone can follow, preferably with a set of drawings too. I'll set my mind to it next week. Good gig though, really good fun.