Phil Starr

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1415055555' post='2596303'] hey! you 3 haven't even got a photo up on the 1x12 design thread yet and you're moving onto 2x10s??!!! [/quote] don't know if it is a function of the Y chromosome, my natural nurdiness or being a bass player but sticking to one thing??? I've got two basses I love and don't spend enough time with, that didn't stop me buying a third yesterday on a whim. There are photos of the prototypes on the thread somewhere, I haven't built the final versions yet, restoring my house, my new band and the death throes of my old band have absorbed so much of my time recently. I've vowed to get something out by Christmas.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1415009480' post='2595481'] There's some interesting reading here. Alongside the low end response, I'm curious about the sort of colouration Phil refers to earlier which the SM212 and 10-300 apparently lacked. I'm another player who enjoys speakers with that peak around 2-4K and will often try to EQ it in if it's not there. If this does become another design diary thread it might be useful to suggest driver choices to bring that colouration alongside the flatter options. Would I be right in thinking that the Celestion has the most of this among those three? [/quote] Cones need to flex to reproduce higher frequencies and a flexing cone has its own resonances so once it ceases acting as a pure piston it is hard to control the frequency response. Most guitar and bass speakers have peaks in the frequency response above 1kHz up to the 3kHz region, which also corresponds to the point where our hearing is most acute. At the very least we are very used to this classic guitar and bass sound as most of the recordings in the formative years of pop and rock used these speakers and generally we quite like it. Ironically I run through mainly flat speakers but dial up the classic weak bass, bass hump, and 1-3kHz hump of cheap speakers on the eq because I like the sound. Both the SM110 and the Celestion exhibit this 1-3kHz peak but the Fane doesn't. The SM212 is an odd one because although fairly flat it gives a substantial output up to over 5kHz, -10dB is 6000Hz ish from memory giving almost an extra octave. I'm hoping to try the Eminence Beta in the 12" cab to try an old school sounding speaker.

Stevie may not know it but he is probably designing the new Basschat 2x10 for us. Looking at those frequency plots I'd say from that information alone these three speakers would sound significantly different. Interesting not knowing which is which. It's a kind of blind audition. The yellow trace is fairly flat at about 95db across the frequency range, down to 94 dB @ 80Hz and with maybe a 1dB hump just above 100Hz. The green trace is around the 91db point at 80Hz rising gently to 100db at 2000Hz. That's going to mean an audible difference. I'd really expect the yellow speaker to sound more bass voiced and the green speaker to sound louder and 'lighter'. Which isn't to say one is better than the other or that the difference is going to be dramatic. Green speakers long gentle bass tail off might even be useful in not exciting room resonances in some gig situations. So, yes, I'm happy that the Celestion models better than I expected. I'd still choose the Beyma personally but I did dismiss the Celestion too easily and maybe Stevie we can test one against the other sometime. Interesting

This is going to sound harsh and isn't [size=4]meant to be but this all looks amateurish. No PA? you really need to be self sufficient and able to show that you can generate enough money to buy all the essentials of your trade. What would you think of a carpenter who turned up without chisels or a plane? A video with a static camera and no editing and room acoustics evident? Have a look at this from one of our local bands and you'll see the difference [/size][size=4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOmU_iVy4s8#t=75 or at a lower budget level but still a good video [/size][size=4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-iJbyKKbM8. [/size] [size=4]You guys are great musically but there is something missing and for me it is a sense of theatre or performance. Skimpy clothes or a killer guitarist might do it as has been suggested but there are plenty of other ways of selling yourselves as entertainers. Sex sells, but It's not a route many of us would choose to take, however you do need to look as if you can entertain the audience you are aiming at.[/size] [size=4]Bandleading IMO is the missing ingredient in most bands. It's about realism and seeing yourself as others see you, and about understanding the needs and expectations of your customers. Cruise ships like everyone else are going to be looking for a hassle free package, and someone appealing to their customers. If your video is your main marketing tool does it promise that?[/size] [size=4]Good luck[/size]

Fane describe the 10-300 as having a 'smooth' response and it is flatter than many 10's, most have a fairly prominent peak in the 1-4kHz range which gives the speakers colouration which sounds quite nice with bass, or maybe that peak is so ubiquitous we have just come to expect it. My confession is that I'm going out with the SM212's which are fairly flat but my graphic looks like the frequency response you get from a cheap Eminence stuffed into a too small a cab. The 10-300's just didn't sound very interesting with bass. Nothing wrong but they just lacked character.

I went straight from 1000 to a burnishing cream with excellent results, but I glued the wet and dry to some flat board I cut to about 3x4cm before each sanding. Without this it's hard not to create a rim round each repair which shows the join. If the finish is otherwise good only use the burnishing cream to match in the rest of the finish which may have discoloured thus showing up the repairs.

[quote name='Leslie77s' timestamp='1414316306' post='2588048'] I don't hate anyone or anything Phil. Just a thought, an opinion, nothing more. [/quote] No I get it, which is why I thought your initial post was particularly well judged.

[quote name='88reaper88' timestamp='1414165910' post='2586663'] Might just buy a Harley Benton BB210T cab... Works out cheaper [/quote] If what you want is a cheap entry level cab and to just get on playing then you won't be able to match these prices by self building. By the time you've built the cab it'll cost you £50 add in the speakers and you are looking at £150 min. You won't beat Chinese mass production in building a cheap cab.

Theile Small calculations are fantastic for modelling the bottom end but tell you almost nothing about the way a cab will sound. I built a cab with the Fane 10-300's and at the bottom they sound as predicted, really rather good but, the trouble is they are so neutral at the top end they sound rather dull and boring, they don't go particularly high either, I've bought a 6" to try to add something to this cab but I haven't got round to trying anything yet, they make nice PA monitors with a decent horn though. In the end I swapped out the 10-300's for Fane 10-125's which sound much nicer, unfortunately Fane have since changed this speaker into something I can't imagine anyone using, God knows why. Funnily enough I was drawing up a shortlist for a 2x10 today and thought the Legend BP102 worth a second look, I also thought the Basslite S2010 looked interesting but is likely to be expensive over here.

[quote name='Leslie77s' timestamp='1414262543' post='2587736'] I struggle to like ageing multi millionaires discussing their difficult creative processes and describing how arduous making an album in lovely studios with the best equipment available was. However, since my unwanted U2 gift arrived I have discovered it contains some drivel but IMO Every Braking Wave is a song crafted simply and cleverly with fantastic vocals that unfortunately demonstrates that the old buggers have sold squillions of albums and have the right to tell my sorry working mans ass to F off with my opinion. I'm not jealous. Honest. [/quote] *Like* I've never really understood the hate for U2 or Bono, or any band really. U2 are fairly limited musically but good at what they do. They turn out a couple of good songs every album and over the years that's a fair no of good songs and gives a lot of people pleasure. Very few bands really change their style much over the years so why do they get criticism more than others? Preaching? Well which of us doesn't know how to put the world to rights and is reluctant to express an opinion? At least the guy cares and is prepared to put his fame on the line. I'm sure I'd sound a bit of a dick if everything I said was recorded, played back and picked over. As for Jools interviews, well they are always like that, aren't they? What were they going to say? "It's a piece of p**s, we can go on churning out this stuff forever".

Stevie strikes again Now I'm going to have to run the models and investigate a bit more. I'd looked at Qts and Fs done a quick calculation of f3 the -3dB point and left it at that, dismissing a speaker that starts to roll off albeit gently at 150Hz ish. To a certain extent it depends upon whether you think 3dB is significant or not. I think it is, as I find in listening tests that the balance between high and low frequencies is something we really notice. It's also true that the 3012HO has a gentle roll off due to a moderately low Q. Comparing it with another speaker would yield a different result. I'd also be interested to know what size box you modeled Stevie. I'm only getting a plot this shape for the Celestion in a fairly large box.

Congratulations Steve!

Now you are into the realms of taste really. Both speakers have a moderate upper mid peak which will enhance those frequencies a characteristic shared by most 10" drivers. Whether you like that sound or not and whether you need something to enhance the higher frequencies or are happy to have the speaker reduce the pick and string noise is something we all see differently. the trouble with building yourself is that by the time you try it it's too late to take it back.

Oh if you want something that does go lower than the Celestions then the Beyma SM110's look promising at a similar price. Be prepared to wait for delivery though [url="http://www.bluearan.com/index.php?id=BMASM110N&browsemode=category"]http://www.bluearan....semode=category[/url] There's a thread on here from someone (fleabag) who tried these speakers and had a positive result [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/235679-can-i-improve-my-cab-at-all/page__hl__beyma%20sm110__st__30"]http://basschat.co.u...20sm110__st__30[/url]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1413993810' post='2584574'] Sorry, I'm new here. I don't get this. I have an Ashdown MiBass 550 .... which puts out 550 watts at 4 Ohms - but probably only about 300 and something at 8 Ohms. So ........ surely, there will be a higher volume at any given level on the dial if it is a 4 Ohm rather than 8 Ohm? I'm interested y'see as I'm kinda slight and would like a lightweight cab ..... and any help with output would be good. [/quote] Hi Jenny as everyone has said doubling the power gives you an extra 3db which is like turning your amp up one notch, not like doubling the volume. If you want detail go here, its a little technical but I hope straightforward http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html The point is that some cabs can make more use of power than others. This is measures in dB's per watt. The worst cabs for this might make only 90dB for 1W the best maybe 102dB for the same power, this is more than the 3dB you get by doubling the power. In fact you'd need 16x the power through the first speaker to make it sound like the second! The trouble is most of these super loud speakers are big and heavy. It is possible to get loud and light but these cabs tend to be expensive because you need a good quality driver with an expensive magnet system to achieve both these aims.

If you go on the thread above you'll find some data from TKS engineering about the distribution in power between the fundamental and all the harmonics a bass puts out. Those Celestions will have very little output below 100Hz once they are in a cab, which will raise the resonant frequency even higher than 79Hz. Basically you will have almost no fundamental in the bottom octave of a 4 string. However it is the harmonics which give us most of what we hear anyway. Putting these speakers in a small cab will give a big bass boost in the 100-200 Hz range which will probably make them sound bassy or boomy depending upon your standpoint. These speakers are going to have a very 'old school' sound, lacking in deep bass and a bit indistinct in the bass area but possibly warm and punchy. Deep bass is often quite an embarrassment in a lot of rooms with poor acoustics creating a lot of boom as they excite room resonances so it isn't all bad. Because of the high fs and the fairly limited excursion of these speakers you'll need to limit the deep bass going to them, I wouldn't use any bass boost and think in terms of deliberately filtering out the low bass with something like a Thumpinator. As ever the advice is the same, if you are doing this to get a cheap cab then buying used is a better bet. If you just want the satisfaction of using something you've made yourself and to start learning about how speakers work and are prepared to take a risk on how they sound then welcome to the club.

OK this is entirely from a technical point of view. I haven't used these speakers. A 15" speaker has roughly 60% more surface area than a 12" so at the bass end will be louder assuming all else to be equal. Ignore the power output of the amp. These amps will drive both speakers way beyond what they can handle at low frequencies but the built in software protects the speakers so they are pretty bomb proof, if you do overload them they just gently turn themselves down for a fraction of a second and you probably won't ever notice this happening as the effect is subtle. The whole thing is engineered to squeeze everything out of the speakers by giving more power than is needed and controlling it carefully so the limits are of the speakers not the amps. When you are playing outside the bass is radiated 360 degrees, (actually in a sphere). Indoors walls, ceilings, floors all reflect that sound back to the audience and increase the bass, usually by about 6dB, the equivalent of using 4x the amplification. In addition you usually find people spread out more so you need maybe 10x the power and much bigger speakers to maintain the same sound. I don't think you can afford to carry a no compromise PA capable of giving the same sound at an outdoor gig. The 12's aren't going to be enough outside, the 15's a bit better but nowhere near enough. If you are the bassist then I don't think you would expect to get a lot of bass out of a 2x12 without PA support outdoors, though it would be perfectly adequate in most venues. It's pretty much the same for your PA, in fact it is exactly the same. I'd go for the 15's but I don't have to carry them. The decision is down to convenience though, 95% of your gigs you'll hear no difference. For the outside gigs you'll get the extra 60% of deep bass to help towards the 400% extra you'll need to make up for what you lose due to room reflections. If you take a bigger bass stack and turn the PA up full you won't be far off your indoor sound and it will be better than the PA tops on their own

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1413802394' post='2581978'] [url="http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-44-01/2012-11-23-13-46-04/psc2-700.html"]http://www.hypex.nl/...4/psc2-700.html[/url] [/quote] Trouble is they are quoting 460 Euros, you could buy an RCF PA speaker with the speakers and cab for that. Shame as it would be a great thing to use something that flexible.

Corrosion can effectively 'glue' the parts together. Once they start moving a bit of judicious wiggling gets you the rest of the way. If you can remove the whole bridge from the guitar then you can apply heat. That sometimes breaks the seal. Alternatively mechanical shock can work. The trouble is with small parts you don't have to hit them hard before you break them. If they are allen keys you could try gently tapping the allen key with a pin hammer to break the seal. Gently does it though. Good luck!!

Oh, you might find this helpful, if long winded http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207

I've got the 205D as a personal vocal monitor and it does the job really well, but if you want the drummer to hear your vocals he will struggle to be honest. The TC Helicon is the same but better, and with useful effects built in. I'd agree about a 15 being too big as a regular monitor, as a start up band you tend to find cramped stages and there is also the problem transporting larger monitors, even a 10+horn would do the job. We've just bought the Wharfedale Titan 12's as vocal monitors, Great sound, scarily loud and could double as vocal PA although bass stresses the lightweight plastic cabs so you wouldn't want bass or kick drum going through them if you used them as PA. They were on offer with Andertons at £139 when I bought mine. You should find the EVP's cheaper than the price you quoted. The RCF's are fantastic and you can't do better at that price point, I recently auditioned them against EV/Yamaha/JBL at PMT in Bristol and they were a class apart.

The Eminence deltas have a rather odd frequency response which is going to be a bit marmite, you'll either like them or not at all. The cab is mworth less because it isn't original. The cab looks about the right size for the deltas but of course may be tuned to the wrong frequency. Don't buy unless it is a bargain and you like the sound when you hear it.

I've some sympathy with your guitarist, especially with the getting wound up before a gig bit I was a sound engineer for years before picking up the bass later in life. As a sound engineer you have one focus and it's easy. Running the PA, playing bass and remembering to entertain, that's tough, especially as musicians won't take the sh*t from other band members they will from the sound engineer. Those Carlsboros won't take much bass at all, other monitors might, it may be a matter of practicality rather than principle. Some vocalists like to hear their voices isolated from the band others like to hear lots of the band, it isn't about right or wrong but a choice. If your vocals are out then nothing will make your band sound worse, so singers trump the band when it comes to monitors I'm afraid. Keep the darlings happy if you can. I'd also be a bit pissed if someone started fiddling with my mix without discussing it beforehand, if you want to try something new then talk about it and do your experimenting at rehearsal, not at a gig, the poor chap probably had enough on his mind just getting the mic leads threaded round the drummer! Ideally for a five piece band I'd have five separate monitor mixes, if you had space which few UK venues do then it would at least double the cost of the PA to do this. Most bands limit monitors to vocals with a bit of acoustic guitar and maybe the keys fed in too, it isn't ideal but it works. Other solutions work too but there needs to be compromises. If you are using 12" Carlsboros then you are short of cash I guess. He isn't really being a t*t, just protecting the gear from a helpful band member. Bill's right about hearing the detail in the bass, a few mids coming from a floor monitor really help. Nothing to stop you buying your own and getting all you need from that. My favourite rig is a Hartke Kickback doing just that and DI into the PA. Bass rolled off slightly into the Hartke and boosted by an equivalent in the PA. I can hear every mistake I and the rest of the band make

I use a Hartke kickback to gig with from time to time. Pubs round here can be quite small and having something tiny on stage helps. They'll just keep up with a drummer if they aren't going flat out and you roll the bass back a tiny bit. It's a little limiting but not impossible. If the drummers miked you'll be going through the PA anyway. Other similar amps may well do the job but I haven't tried them. Old Peaveys sound great, tend to be reliable and the ones with Black Widow speakers in are worth looking out for. Great speakers for very little money. They are heavy though.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1413217846' post='2575968'] the three musketeers, bill and others will probably have this/not need it... but someone linked to it on TB and it may be interesting for some... [url="https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_l73GVBBlIUNTc2YTc2YTktNTNmYi00YWNmLTlmY2ItZTU0MTRhMzdkYTAy/edit?pli=1"]https://docs.google....YTAy/edit?pli=1[/url] [/quote] Yep it's a great book and a good thing to have around if you want to delve a little deeper and understand some of what the computer is up to when it calculates box sizes for you. The other book I'd recommend is http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470094303.html though it is more technical in places.