Phil Starr

Mine are IV's too but they have the same drivers as the S112V's I used to borrow before I bought them, They sound the same too. For a long time I liked the mid-range peak as it punched the vocals right forward, and they by no means sounded bad in practice, a bit harsh when the room was empty but vocal articulation came over well when the room was packed. The trouble came when I added subs and started putting the whole mix through, the guitars always sounded harsh. We always had limited gain before feedback too because of the peaky response. It is standard practice in hi-fi cabs with 2nd order crossovers to reverse the tweeter because of the phase shift in the crossover, so I tried it and yes it sounds better both in an A/B comparison and in a live performance. What did you do about inductors? I found them hard to source and expensive and in the end had them wound by IPLacoustics.

PS don't you think it is shocking that you and I (and any number of others on here) could design a better crossover than Yamaha in a design that must have sold in tens of thousands?

Thanks for this Lawrence, one I hadn't looked at. It has quite a droop in the upper frequencies but that could help in a monitor. You are happy with the sound and clean mids are what a decent monitor needs more than extreme highs. The only downside for me is that I was looking for something to drop into my existing cabs without needing a new baffle, the upside is that you seem to be suggesting a pretty decent result with something that in my case started as a cheap and cheerful solution to a problem using bits left from other projects. I've used Yamaha S112V and S115's as monitors, the 12's are far too mid biased due to the horrible peak in the EM delta's and lack of intelligent crossover design. The S115's are much better but just too big for the small stages we play. I've had some experiences with matching drivers to horns and experienced exactly what you describe. I bought a bunch of cheap plastic moulded horns and tried them with the horn drivers I was using with really quite dramatic differences in the subjective results. Most of them have flat sides with sharp angles in the flare which I understand you might need to do if you were forming them from sheet materials but which seems crazy in a moulded component. Did you see my post about the yamahas? I've reversed the polarity of my horn drivers in my S112's which has knocked the nasty mid peak back a bit, really cleaned up the vocals and tamed some of the feedback problems.

I'm after upgrading our stage monitors by replacing the compression units in our horns. They don't need to create more than 120db so the drivers I usually use are overkill, too big and heavy and a waste to have something capable of 130dB padded right back. The thing is to find something that sounds as good as possible and without any nasties which would make the monitors feedback prone. Crossover frequency isn't a problem as I'll design and build my own. 1" screw on preferred as then I can use the existing horns Any recommendations?

OK, we too have to take the plunge into lighting. We want to keep it simple, just to liven up our visuals without adding to the set up time or the already cluttered stage area so the four Led cans on a controller/ParBar type lights will suit us just fine. One question is what level of light to go for. They don't all quote light output so it is hard to compare but the choice seems to be between the 3x3W tri-leds (PowerBar and equivalent) and the ones with 10mm leds (ParBar). I saw a band recently using the ParBars and they seemed bright enough. Would the more powerful lights give greater intensity of colour? Would they prove too bright in a usually restricted stage area. I know I could get a proper controller to dim them but to be honest I want to plug, forget and play. If i can get away with a ParBar then that's great, more to spend on bass gear. What are your experiences?

If you want little, and more than adequate for a pub then you have to try the AER amp one unless the cost is too great. It's a one off that you need to eliminate from your enquiries, tiny, manageable and sounds fabulous.

I've had problems with my 3500. The problem seems to be mainly with all the smoothing caps in the power supply that are not securely mounted and heavy enough to move when the amp is carried around. I bought a complete new set of caps and meant to replace them and mount them properly at the same time, but of course since then the amp has behaved perfectly and I can't be troubled to open it all up again.

Proel are a perfectly respectable company who use decent quality components [url="http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/dec09/articles/proelflash.htm"]http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/dec09/articles/proelflash.htm[/url] The BBC do use them as I've seen them in use at their Edinburgh festival stage and i guess they will have been chosen on price/performance. I'd still use the RCF's though.

QTX is the cheapest Chinese generic PA. Tou'll see it badged with other names too. It does a job at a price and sounds ok so long as you don't push too hard. As you've spotted it tends to be pushed over hard by quoting 'music power' When you read on it does tell you what the RMS wattages are. The other bit of the equation is that the speakers are very limited, small magnets so efficiency is low and short voice coils so bass excursion is poor so they overload fairly early on. To be honest it is exceptionally good for the money but limited by its budget. The RCF's are top of the range speakers well known for great vocal sound, get them and then look for subs in the future if you need to put bass and drums through the PA. they'll be a lot louder than the QTX's.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382528556' post='2253189'] I understand what you are saying, but there is another point to consider. When you play in a pub, with the backline so close to the singers, the full range of the band (including drums, bass and guitar amps) will be picked up via the vocal mics and then projected into the room via the tops and subs. So, you do get value from having them. It's not massive, but it is in there and part of the whole sound mix. If you ever take a recoding out from the desk at a gig on one of the vocal channels, you'll hear what I mean. I may only get one sub for the moment - and add a second if it goes well. [/quote] [quote name='Alec' timestamp='1382529776' post='2253212'] Pretty much any mics other than kick, floor-tom and bass, I'd be applying a HPF to. Certainly to vocal mics. So there would be negligable bottom end in the vocal mics. And, anyway, it's the last thing you want. You do use a HPF on your vocal channels, right? [/quote] Hope you weren't taking offence at the expensive speaker stand comment, it was meant to be a joke. Alec's right though, you should be using your filters as a matter of course, in any case the real problem with bass is the excursion it causes small speakers and this only really becomes a problem below 50-70 Hz. In your case most vocal mics don't pick that up anyway and I hope you aren't operating at levels where the drums and backline are coming through your vocal mics at anything like the same volume as your vocals, Even if you have no LF cut on your desk and you are using an unusual full range mic for vocals any bleed through is not going to cause your speakers a problem unless it is within a few dB of your vocals. you really don't need subs for the use you describe .

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382530435' post='2253228'] Yeah I have.... Though I do work for EV so I would expect you to think me biased. For the money there is nothing that can touch them. A really good quality low cost active speaker. My advice is to go and have a listen at your local dealer..... They have become our best selling product which is amazing since it was only launched at the Messe this year. Couple of things.... it's a very different product to the ELX... thats got a different power stage, speaker and enclosure. ZLX is a completely brand new product in every respect. They are plenty loud enough for use on their own or as a mid/high top in a system. From every dealer we demo'd these too they all agree they give the RCF boxes a good run for their money. The RCF boxes are excellent but the EV ZLX are approx £120 per pair cheaper than the RCF units [/quote] That's my point really. The EV's he is looking at are engineered to a price and there is a limit to their capability as a result. In this case the efficiency. I'm making no comment on the internals I can only see what is on the EV website. EV say the amps are the same power, are you saying that is a mistake? I'm not knocking EV whose stuff I generally like, I've just been singing through my EV mic, so much better than the SM58. I've recently said its a make to look at. One of the ways in which manufacturers can save a little on costs is to cut the size of the speaker magnets which has implications for bass power handling and efficiency. With DSP the excursion limiting is not going to damage the speaker but the bass will probably be more compressed with this model compared with the more expensive EV or some of the rivals. Most speakers in this market boast output figures around the 130dB mark, this one is 4db lower so maximum volume is going to be noticeably less. Since we don't know what maximum volumes the user will need or whether bass is going to be a problem I'm not making a recommendation but I just wanted the OP to know what to look for, and what they would get by buying the next model up or an alternative. 126dB is seriously loud but a tad short of current standards, it may sound lovely, you can send me one to test if you want I don't work for EV or anyone else .

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382370760' post='2251344'] Yes indeed. When I say that cost is not the main criterion in this case, your bloke up there a couple of posts back is correct. What we're really after is something that is portable, powerful enough AND very easy to set up. I'm shifting towards the Mackie DLM thing. My guess would be 2 x DLM12 units as tops connected via poles to 2 x DLM12S units as subs. Then 2 x DLM8 units as monitors - all tied together by one of the DL806 mixers. That looks like a good option. [/quote] This doesn't look like a bad choice. Mackie was the trendy brand with the SRM450's and then people fell out of love as everyone else raised their game and they transferred their manufacture. This doesn't make them dire, just less trendy. The acid test is to go and listen to them, if you like the way they sound then go for it. You could probably get the same, or similar capability by mixing and matching from a range of manufacturers but on paper this is a very capable option. If you are only going to use them for vocals why buy the subs? They make very expensive stands and if you only use them for vocals they won't make a sound as you can't sing that low. You could also add them later if you decide to start putting bass and kick through your PA.

Hi Matt, there's lots of issues here but the first one is to try and sort out what you are trying to achieve. If it is the best sound on a small budget then sadly self build isn't the way to go. Second hand will always be cheaper. For example there have been several Peavey BXBW 15's with the better Black Widow speaker on Ebay which have gone for comfortably below £100. The bare speakers cost nearly half as much again without the cab! There are lots of other used bargains too, and you can try them and hear the sound yourself before you buy. If you want to build as a learning experience then that is a different matter. You can get something quite usable at a price not too much more than used and a lot of knowledge and satisfaction. If you are looking for something high end then it is possible to build and save money over a new speaker. There are lots of people here who will give you advice and support and if you follow that advice it is unlikely to go completely pear shaped but it just isn't the cheapest option. So, build and learn or Ebay and play?

Don't get too carried away by the power rating, if you look carefully the output in decibels is 126dB underneath is the ELX with the same power rating but 132db output which will be noticeably louder. The RCF Art 312 is rated at 400W but gives out 127dB. 126dB is pretty loud but this is obviously fitted with their less capable speakers compared with the elx112. If that is what you can afford then there's nothing wrong with that but just be aware of what is on offer and compare dB not watts. The great thing about all of these is the protection given to the speakers by having DSP, they should prove to be more reliable as you won't be able to overload them. I've not used the EV's but a lot of bands do use them round here and I've heard some nice sounds coming out of them, not sure they were these models though. you might find this interesting [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may12/articles/yamaha-dxr.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may12/articles/yamaha-dxr.htm[/url] and there might be reviews of some of the other offerings on the same site. All of these are going to sound much better than what you have. Make a short list and go and listen to them before choosing.

You ought to give us a budget really. I can't see you compromising the sound at all, those Peaveys aren't great sounding. EV,JBL, Yamaha are all likely to be better and the RCF's a lot better,

Hi, I'm not going to add to the endless list of brands but to try to home in exactly what you want to achieve. In your OP you indicate that price is not the main driver behind your choice, You talk about a system but most of the talk has been about speakers. You talk about only putting vocals through the PA. You've discovered the limitations of the Bose. In going for the Bose you seem to be looking for an off the shelf, set up and forget solution. Certainly as far as the amps and speakers are concerned, is this fair? How much do you want something high end and how much do you want to just buy something that just works well and that you have confidence in so you can get on with the music? Are you looking to buy a VW Golf or a Ferrari? I don't think you mentioned mixers, I assume you are happy with what you have? How much do you want something high end and how much do you want to just buy something that just works well and that you have confidence in so you can get on with the music? Are you looking to buy a VW Golf or a Ferrari?Are you really only ever going to put vocals through the PA? This is critical as the requirements for vocals are very different to those for almost anything else a band does. Most of the information in vocals is carried in the 300-3000Hz range with almost no low frequency sound needed. This means that 15's and even 12's will have serious shortcomings and the quality of the horns and the crossovers becomes much more important. The shortcomings of larger speakers for vocals are simple enough. Large cones can't radiate high frequencies without the sound from one part of the cone interfering with the sound from another part and above the frequencies whose wavelength corresponds to the diameter of the cone the sound is increasingly beamed. On top of that the mass of a large cone becomes difficult to move around quickly enough to accurately reproduce high frequencies.The problem with the crossovers is that they introduce distortions of their own around the crossover frequency and that sits right in the middle of the frequencies critical to vocals. Unfortunately there are few systems out there that are engineered with this in mind. the biggest problem is getting sufficient volume out of a small speaker. I'm assuming you will go for an active speaker with a built in amp and crossover. The active crossover is much more likely to give you a clear sound through the midrange and you really don't need to carry all the extra boxes and wiring that people are suggesting. Have a look at three alternatives, systems with small satellites as tops such as the HK Elements system [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug11/articles/hk-elements.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug11/articles/hk-elements.htm[/url], speakers with a dedicated mid range driver and thirdly, as some of the louder 10"+horn speakers like the RCF Art series [url="http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-710-a-mk-ii"]http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-710-a-mk-ii[/url]. Mainly though you need to have a listen to your shortlist. As you can see one persons 'dire sound' is another's nirvana. Mainly I suspect down to putting different demands upon the PA's in question.

This is one of the latest and better threads on the wrong sized/poorly tuned box issue. There's some interesting pix of what happens when you get it wrong and a link to an excurson graph which shows what happens if the box is too large. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/218436-warning-kappalite-3015-not-designed-for-bass/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/218436-warning-kappalite-3015-not-designed-for-bass/[/url] If you follow the advice it shouldn't go that badly.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1381864458' post='2244775'] True, but that can sometimes work in your favour. I once needed a few large UNC bolts and went to a local 'big supplier' who was happy to give me half a dozen for free. Another time I needed some large stainless steel studding and nuts and the same place gave me four one-metre lengths and a bag of s/s nuts and washers for a tenner (no receipt needed of course ). I've also found the same thing when looking for short lengths of steel box section or angle. Find a local steel fabricator and they'll have loads of offcuts lying around. I once filled up my estate car with such offcuts for a tenner to the appropriate person. I do find it works best if I turn up in a dirty, greasy boiler suit though. [/quote] +1 and I really did get a chuckle out of this.

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1382050460' post='2247429'] Pardon me but what is 'sound focus'? Can you explain the physics of this? [/quote] I think he is referring to comb filtering or phase effects. Google comb filtering if you want the physics. Speakers go both back and forwards to make a sound. Put two speakers 1/4 wavelength apart and by the time the air pushed forward from one speaker reaches the other that speaker is 'sucking' the air back and the sound cancels. If you have a big speaker like a 6x10 then the top speakers are a different distance from your ears from the bottom ones and you lose some of the frequencies. Move out into the room and the angles to your ears change and the frequencies you lose will change, there's hot spots and cold spots for each frequency all through the room. This is further complicated because the sound will reflect off the hard surfaces in the room with lots of different path lengths. Where you are in the room will affect the sound you hear and there isn't anywhere you hear the 'right' sound really. By the time you are halfway back in the audience most of the bass they hear will be reflected and they are likely to be hearing a similar sound balance to their immediate neighbour. The other effect of all this is that even all the bits of a single speaker cone can have different path lengths to your ears and cancel sound. In practice if a frequency has a wavelength shorter than the diameter of the speaker then it cancels and the high frequencies radiate as a narrow cone of sound. That's why you can't hear your bass properly. Using a 4x10 and standing close is a bit like using a 24" driver, unless you are dead in line you can't hear any detail because of comb filtering. Just take the 2x10 to practice, put it on a table or tip it back to point at your ears, tell your guitarist to turn down. With that amp you should be able to more than drown out the drums anyway. Cut the bass a tiny bit on your eq and you should be good to go.

I've only heard people playing these a couple of times, the first time I spent 10 mins looking for the DI lead, couldn't believe how good they sound. They just sound so big and warm. I'm definitely thinking about it but of course they cost as much as a decent bass. They almost never come up second hand and keep their value when they do, rather like a lot of other German engineering.

Just so you know, your rig is capable of producing 128dB @ 1m and will be averaging maybe 110dB if you are consistently running it into clipping. If your guitarist is operating this loud too you have over 130dB peaks and 113db in the room. One hour of sound at this level will cause irreversible damage to your hearing.

Power is power but of course not volume. Guitar speakers are generally more efficient at converting electricity into sound because they don't need long voice coils. Add into that the fact that our ears are much better at hearing sounds in the 300-3000hz range of the human voice and coincidentally electric guitar and you have the reason you can't hear so well. Also the guitar speaker sends out a concentrated cone of sound which usually points at the bassist and the vocal mics and misses the guitarist entirely whereas the bass radiates evenly into the room at the lowest frequencies. You shouldn't be worried about the guitarist other than to expect him to be a good band member and turn down. You only need to match the drums. The poor drummer doesn't have a volume control that goes to 11. If you match the drums than no-one should be louder than the pair of you. Get a stand for the guitarist to point his cab at his ears, he will probably have no idea how he actually sounds and 120w is too loud for most gigs never mind practice. Your own rig is overkill tbh but you seem to know where the volume control is, show your guitarist where to find his.

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1381419305' post='2238857'] Phil Starr - thanks I'm always happy to be corrected. If you can suggest a better position for the cap I'm sure the OP would like to know. (Me too) Cheers Rich [/quote] Sorry I think I may have created more confusion. If you want to put in a high(ish) value cap to smooth out the power supply to the pre amp this circuit is spot on. This is exactly the place to put the cap. The confusion I was referring to was over the value, so far the only value suggested was a 0.1uF connected across the switch terminals which would suppress switch noise in an AC circuit but is too small to smooth the DC voltage.

I think you may have come to the right place, think hard about what you want and a budget and we'll all help. I'll do the usual warning, if you think this is the best way of getting a cheap cab then you'd be better off buying something decent quality second hand, which will also be easier to sell to get some of your money back. You also won't know what your cab is going to sound like until you've finished by which time it is too late to change your mind. You won't make technical errors though if you take the advice from here, and people are very helpful. If this is about learning how cabs work and the pride in using something you have created then it's a great experience. You can get a good quality cab for a very good price too.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380620797' post='2227845'] The driver in question is excellent for bass guitar. The damage is a clear case of both excursion and thermal overpowering. Most cheap bass cabs are tuned too high which means they'll unload on low note fundamentals. [/quote] [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1380630582' post='2228069'] +1. As is the case with any and all drivers it must be loaded into a cab that is compatible with its specs. If one is to push it to maximum output the amp must at the very least be appropriately high passed, if not limited to the driver's safe operating voltage swing. In terms of performance the 3015 is on par with an Aston Martin. [/quote] [quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1381186373' post='2235685'] +1 The 3015 is a great driver for a bass cabinet. Per the Eminence website "Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures for full range...." Full range would include a bass cab as well. Pretty much any driver can be pushed too hard into over-excursion, or fed enough power to burn out the voice coil. In my experience, there is a tendency for the term "super 12" or "super 15" to be taken as meaning these cabinets are capable of handling anything you can throw at them. Regardless of how well they perform, every cab does in fact has it's limits. [/quote] So it is absolutely clear that this speaker is a great choice for bass, Alex Claber, Bill FitzMautice and Roger Baer all agreeing, and full range does mean including bass. it is also clear that the damage was caused by over excursion from the photo's provided by Blue Aran. The big question then is: was this a suitable cab? To settle this I modelled the cab with WinISD using data from the Warwick website. The cab is just over 140l and tuned to 35Hz. The frequency plot is poor, the cab rolls off starting at 500Hz and is 6db down at bottom E. This is due to over damping from too large an air mass. A smaller cab would give much better bass. the crucial plot is the excursion plot however. If excursion is in excess of 11mm within the pass band then the failure is due to the cab design. If it is not, the failure is due to something else. I've attached the plot. This is with 450W power. The Warwick trace is in blue/green the other is Eminence's cab, similar in size to the Compact. You can see the unsuitability of the larger cab, the Compact sized cab keeps excursion within 6mm down to 35Hz the Warwick cab allows the excursion to rise to 10mm in the 'critical 60Hz region' meaning the bass will be distorted due to the misalignment of the port, which is tuned too low for this speaker. Both speakers exceed the damage excursion below 30Hz, though the Warwick is slightly better in this area than the smaller cab. This wasn't by any means a good choice of cab, it is designed for a speaker with a lower Fs and less well damped than the 3015, a smaller cab tuned to 45Hz would have been better. But, this speaker, in this cab using the full power of the SWR should not have been hitting the back of the magnet as it seems to have done. I guess it was out of manufacturing tolerance.